It addresses its use given different options available (when to reach for PiF vs EtW vs Grapeshot etc), but not the sideboarding aspect of it. I understand the article given the context of the situation, but not how I arrived at the situation to begin with. Does that make any better sense with what I'm trying to ask about here? My question i guess is more along the lines of when PiF/Tendrils should be in the main, not which I should reach for. I'm not asking for concrete guidelines, but more of a "what are the things I should look for thast would cause me to consider moving PiF/Tendrils to Main, or EtW out of the main?"
Match-ups where Chrome Mox and Goblins are generally bad and the game slows down. Miracles & Shardless, if you looked closely at the report it's the only place where that plan happened.
THAT's what I was looking for. So the baseline would be to drop a Mox and ETW and bring in PIF and Tendrils main? As such this would also probably apply to a Lands matchup where Tabernacle is a known and tutorable threat?
Do you think there's merit to leaving in ETW just to have that option available to you in Miracles and make them keep their Terminus' in? Or are they going to probably do that regardless of whether your ETW is in or out?
You need to do some testing and figure out things on our own. Not trying to be a jerk, but it's tough love - you'll get more through experience.Originally Posted by Ebonclaw
Also, what I stated in my previous post was mentioned in an article...
Get used to playing all of your testing games post-board on the draw, because you shouldn't get into the habbit of playing the deck "balls to the walls" unless you are on the play vs an unknown opponent or on the draw and you've seen their first land (Plains. Forest etc.) or you have no other choice (1 land hands with no cantrips or disruption etc.) After your opponent has perfect information, his SB, the mulligan and the play you generally need to slow down and play out the match.
We are a Burning Wish deck so you should never expect Miracles to SB out Terminus, like ever, because you never stop threatening it.
No no, I get that. I don't get to play much anymore for various reasons, and only one local has Miracles to test against. I get to attend maybe one or two events a year right now, so I'm trying to learn more from other people's experiences as I'm limited in the practice I can get. I'm just fortunate that I get to learn from you guys.
I'll go back and reread previous Infernal Tutors, I'm sure I've missed some things....and I'm also sure there's no substitute for experience either, but at the moment studying is the most I can do some weeks.
Have you ever thought about playing nix to counter fow and chalice on 0? also counters e.e. on 0 to kill your gobos.
TES is not a reactive deck, it strives to be proactive. The most reactive card I can ever recall the deck playing was Silence, and never countermagic. Countermagic just requires you to sit until the right opportunity comes along to use it, and worse, can strand you from becoming Hellbent with Infernal Tutor. TES aims at typically being a fast deck and when your combo turn approaches, every mana can count. Why keep a blue up at all times, when you could just take the chalice or FoW out of their hand with a discard spell to begin with, for the same mana cost. Plus, if there's no Chalice or FoW to take, I can happily snag the Spell Pierce or Counterspell or whatever anyway. Discard is more versatile, more proactive, doesn't require keeping mana up all the time, and besides all of that, even if you were to play some kind of countermagic, what would you even cut for it?
Also, Nix will not counter CoV for 1, which is far worse than CoV for 0, and what most decks would be setting Chalice on anyway.
@Ebonclaw:
There is no 100% maths vs Miracles or a strategy perfectly defined to handle this match up - sure Lemnear says "well if your problem is senseis then play nedle" or F.Fortune, "well the approach you define if you have no much experience is just incrementing the EtW".
But there is a reallity and is that there is no agreement on what to do vs miracles in order to get at least a 60% of winning for 2nd games where you do not start.
by the moment, well, putting in decays didnt win me any game.
the PiF redundant strategy, well, if this is an approach specific vs miracles, I cannot say anything vs it because i havent even tryed, but if this is intended vs other match ups, well I just think it is simply dont needed... PiF can be countered by a miracles player as equal as other spell, even you need to invest more resources to cast it than with ANT
you want all boys to figth vs miracles post side from turn 3? then the logic inclusión in our sideboard is senseis divining top.
the hell i remember when me and Lemnear were advocating for 4 decays or even evaluating some krosan.
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I don't sideboard out Chrome Mox against lands, Ad Nauseam is how you want to win every game in that match-up. There's no need to make yourself weak to their Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog trying to use Past in Flames. You can jam games on MODO or Cockatrice as well. But some of this stuff is easy and would seem so to you if you had some more experience.
James, it doesn't play well with Lion's Eye Diamond and forces you to be on the play against the Chalice decks and not tapping mana. Not to mention, most of the time, Chalice is on one.
Work must be muddling my mind today because that seems pretty obvious reading it, especially considering that was something I learned from playing when I did so more often. I need to get on cockatrice at least and keep at it, I promise I was much better when I was playing more regularly.
hey guys, can you help me with sideboard? here it's my ideas, do you agree with them?
4 decay: nothing to say
1 empty: nts
1 demonic pact: nts
1 tendrils: nts
1 past in flames: nts
2 thoughtseize: nts (at the moment.....)
1 voidsnare: a lot of you probably would cut it, but it can replies a lot of hate (not chalice on 1). It's tutorable. Great against leyline, so and so against others. But in general good, that's why I'd keep it.
1 massacre: my meta is FULL of D&T, so it's hard to cut massacre.
1 pyroclasm: normally I side in this against D&T and keep the massacre for wishes. It's good if the opponent's race is very big, also if it's hard to cast it after a wish, the opponent will discover your plan and try to stop it (I thought it was good against grixis, but with counter, discard and so on it's very difficult to set the plan). Maybe grapeshot it's better? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea to "waste" all my storm-generating cards to clean the board and hope in PiF to finish the job.
1 chains of vapor: as voidsnare, normally I side in this and let the voidsnare for wishes
1 hurkyl: I'd like to have two of them, but I don't know what to cut, and in my meta we have few eldrazi, mud, lands or similiar.....
thanks for your help!
There is a LOT to say about Demonic Pact. Like, how the hell would you play a 4 mana Enchantment, paying its mana cost, and not have something better to spend that mana on? For that reason, I'll assume you meant Dark Petition, which is missing from your list and would make much more sense. Also, your list implies that you run Bayou maindeck. It's ok.
I used to run Grapeshot + Pyroclasm + Massacre. What I learned over time is that I was losing more games because I was waiting on those, instead of winning right away when I could. I would believe one of these slot can be used for an other type of matchup. In your case, I would most likely cut the Pyroclasm and indeed run Grapeshot instead. In matchups when such cards are needed, I would too leave Massacre in the sideboard as a Burning Wish target, and board in Grapeshot. Usually you don't even have to clear the board, just snipe one or two creatures. Remember that you don't have to spend all your Grapeshot on creatures too; if you're forced to use all your resources, kill the necessary creatures, and target your opponent with the rest. Your next Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot via Past in Flames will require less.
I wouldn't run Chains of Vapor + Void Snare for the only reason that Chalice @ 1 is too destructive. Hurkyl's Recall seems much better in any case. You won't see many scenarios in which you'll need your Void Snare game one that:
1) you couldn't win anyway
2) an other card (like Grapeshot or Massacre) couldn't help (against Thalia main, Teeg, etc.)
3) you aren't assured to lose, or close to, close enough to the point that using sideboard slots for these matches are wasted
Running 2 single target bounce at 1CMC isn't good anymore. It simply doesn't cut it, because it's either too little, or too much as you could win anyway.
Honestly, you would most likely be better with a mass removal on artifacts, like... huh, Pulverize, or Meltdown. Most likely Pulverize in the Void Snare slot (wishable, but with more utility), and... something else (Hurkyl's Recall for my taste) in the Chains of Vapor slot. It's a more artifact hate, less Miracles help than the default list, but that's what I would run because I don't believe you need more than Grapeshot + Massacre to beat all the D&T.
Hope it helped!
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thanks for your post LDX, so exaustive and clear!
demonic pact is of course a dark petition, I was thinking about Liliana when I wrote that ahahahahhaah.
I agree with Grapeshot, probably I will give it a try. I need just to learn how to play it correctly.
The reason I'm so worried about cutting voidsnare/chains is that they are the ONLY answer against leyline. EVERY time sneack&show/omnitell starts the game with it on play, I lose. Other hate cards can be destroyed also by decay in theory, also if we use it only against some matchups (but for example I use to side one copy of it also against delvers deck, to beat null rod; and if the race is very high, I can use it to kill a delver).
I feel very weak to have only ONE card post side against a type of deck......it's not a tier 1 and so widespread, but I can easily find it in my local tournament.
You're welcome.
I get your point that Void Snare is the only answer to a certain problem. I was stuck in the same loophole. However, an other thing I learned from this thread is that some things are not worth having an answer for.
Here are some insights:
1) If they mulligan to get their Leyline, most likely they had to cut on their speed, and you can still win via Empty the Warrens.
2) If you mulligan to have your Chains of Vapor (assuming you kept Void Snare in the side), you most likely did cut your speed and maybe could have won with it.
3) If you don't mulligan for it, don't see it on the field, and lose because you actually drew the card, you could have won with something else.
4) If they start with Leyline on the field, how many times, let's disregard the possibility and actually be practical, how many times can you Burning Wish:Void Snare into win, and not Burning Wish:Empty the Warrens into win?
What I'm trying to say is, you're asking an answer for this possible situation:
-Your opponent is protected by a Leyline of Sanctity before you could Tendrils of Agony
-Empty the Warrens isn't a possible win condition
-Your opponent will kill you before you can manage something for Empty the Warrens to be a win condition
-Your Chain of Vapor or Void Snare is going to resolve (no counterspells, no discards, it resolves)
-You can win before they drop their Leyline of Sanctity again.
These are a lot of conditions to fulfill. While it can happen, indeed, the important question becomes the following: is it worth to have a dedicated sideboard slot which will be used if the previous five conditions are met? I would say no, but you could say yes. However you would then have to answer this new question: is it worth to have a dedicated sideboard slot which will be used if the previous five conditions are met, over something else?
Because this discussion would be irrelevant if we had unlimited sideboard slot.
In other words, will these sideboard cards help me win more matches than other cards?
To me, the answer was no. I no longer run 1CMC spot removal, and guess what, my win ratio is improving. :) It's not about getting the necessary card to get around a specific scenario, it's about getting a hard that will help you win more matches.
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I have nothing to add here. Kudos, Alexandre
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Shattering Spree maybe? The copies aren't counterable by Chalice@1 and you get to keep your mountains.
I agree somehow with you LDX. Replying to your points:
1) They can cut their speed, but this doens't mean we can easily win with goblins. Pyroclasm/explosive are easy to find with all the cantrips that deck runs, or also cunning wish into kozilek's return. And with no gitaxian probe to see if the path is clear and discarding card, it's more difficult to resolve an Empty.
2) Well, of course I'd never keep an hand based only on chains. By the way, it can be use also to bounce our petal/led to increase the storm count, so it is a nice card also if no leyline is on the field. It's never a dead card; thoughtseize, cabal, duress are if opponent has a leyline
3) same as point 2
point 4 and final consideration: that's true, PROBABLY you'll be heat by a counterspell when you'll try to resolve a wish or a chains. Does this mean that we don't have to try? I mean, I don't see easier to storm blindly ('cause with leyline we cannot use gitaxian nor duress) with Empty AND survive to mass removal rather than resolve a void snare/chains.
I understand also that artifact are very boring and they deserve a lot of anti-hate, but we already have 4 decay, 1/2 hurlkyl...... can we use a slot for the leyline situation, can't we? or, at least, find some cards that can help against leyline AND against other things (that's why thoughtseize are in discussion.....wonderful if leyline is not on the field, absolutly bad with leyline)
:)
I tried it. Shattering Spree requires you to have red mana to cast. We only run two red mana source, excluding artifacts because these can be countered as well. Two mountains is not enough to cast Shattering Spree. I swear I tried, you can see my whole progress with that from last summer. It's simply impossible to cast and be efficient, we don't run enough red sources for it. To sacrifice your mountain is meaningless if you win in the turn anyway, or in the worst case, the following thing with artifact providing red mana that you played after your clear.
I'm not saying it's easy to win against a Leyline in play, I'm saying it's possible and that having sideboard cards dedicated to ease that isn't worth it.
You're adding even more requirements to the points I listed before: they have a wipe or a way to find it. Of course you can theorize for the worst scenario ever but trust me, it doesn't help you win and just go on a spiral. I mean, I've written a full series on that on the TES website. It's basically my story on how I focused too much on a single aspect in a league, and how it almost tricked me to failure. Go read my previous work! :D
They could have Leyline, Counterspells, a wipe, etc. But they can also have nothing when you have a turn one win. Does it mean you need to throw away everything just to focus on your turn one kill possibilities? No it doesn't, you know there's a balance to find.
An other note, if you want to win with a clear path, this deck isn't for you, go with ANT instead. TES is built for gutsy plays and moves. The cards are awesome at doing that, but you need to play them right. As the saying goes, don't judge a fish by how it climbs a tree. You're given some tools, use them to their full extend or you'll end up disappointed.
You also say: ''By the way, it can be use also to bounce our petal/led to increase the storm count, so it is a nice card also if no leyline is on the field. It's never a dead card; thoughtseize, cabal, duress are if opponent has a leyline.''
Yes it can. Does it mean it's good? No. It is not a nice card if no Leyline is on the field, it's just a usable card for a fringe use. Wouldn't you prefer something else over that? I'll give you that it's flashy and nice to cast, really, I agree! But this small upside isn't worth the sideboard slot it takes.
I'll take your words again: ''point 4 and final consideration: that's true, PROBABLY you'll be heat by a counterspell when you'll try to resolve a wish or a chains. Does this mean that we don't have to try?''
''Does it mean that we don't have to try?'' It's exactly what I'm trying to tell you, but there is a limit to respect. Does it mean that, because they can find a wipe, we don't have to try to win with Empty the Warrens? What is more plausible, them having any form of counterspells for your Chain of Vapor, or them finding a wipe? I invite you to look decklists, you'll see one is more prevalent than the other.
Your need would be valid if you played against a friend and nothing else, in which you could sideboard your 15 cards. The reality is that if the worst of the worst case scenario happens and that you really can't win by any mean, statistically, you were unlucky and must move on to the next game. TES is built to win tournaments, not to have answers to everything. If you believe you need answers to everything then you're playing TES wrong. It's about maths and statistics and, especially in TES case, probability. Now bear with me, if your feelings get over the maths and statistics and it becomes more important to you to respond to these feelings, please go for it! But as far as the maths go, your deck will most likely be sub optimal.
I also run many artifact hate to make sure I can use some in a game. It makes a difference when I board all that stock in my deck. A single Void Snare or Chain of Vapor would most likely be a waste of slot, it has less impact because it's less numerous. 6 cards to hate a specific thing is worth more than 3 cards to hate one thing, and 3 other cards to hate an other. It has more weight and makes a real difference.
In other words, the probability of all the scenarios you suggest (them having everything, you having nothing) is so small that it is not worth caring about, for two reasons:
-It won't happen often.
-When it happens, the deck can (and most likely will) bounce back in the next game.
...and if you happen to lose the match, then the deck is built to carry own despite that loss.
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ANT has also several paths to win which people constanly miss out. Cantrip/Tutor chains without engine card are criminally underestimated in both decks
I really loved that *ShedATear*
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