All B/R update speculation.

[Amon Amarth]

If you read my post there is a section clearly labeled bans due to cost prohibitive, the examples are not exhaustive. Time Vault is around $800 and isn't ever getting unbanned into a 4x format where every deck can run it... It is referenced to illustrate roughly where "you can't take turns" (in the case of CB, "you can't take meaningful turns") exists on that ban-worthy scale.

The deck you're looking for exists: Esper Mentor~DeMentor. Take that stock list cut 3 cards for E. Tutor x2 and Earthcraft x1; list should already have a basic Island and singleton Trop (for DRS, since the deck is basically Grixis Delver where red went white. Just as anything that runs Explorer/Cabal Therapy is nicfit, so too is any army in a can + Cabal/Probe effectively the same archetype). Minimally slot prohibitive pseudo-Splinter Twin combo that allows for fewer SB duplicates of silver bullets post-board. These Esper decks are currently at 12x cantrips + 4x SDT. Note that a deck like this is automatically more competitive than anything with the demonstrable Squirrel Nest loop shortcutting.

It'd be great if the only place you saw an unbanned Earthcraft was Enchantress, where again it would probably be a 1x as well...but I'd rather not participate in an event where someone wants to go to time cantrip-chaining endlessly in the example above.

The same is true of Recruiter; I don't really want to find out just how much time someone can burn in a single turn resolving that trigger. Now there are two key elements that @LegacyIsAnEternalFormat stated: unbans [multiple] and shake up the meta [presumably in a healthy direction since he/she wants a Terminus ban]. In terms of cards that will fail to shake up the meta at all you have Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Recruiter...maybe Hermit Druid with all the maindeck removal and sideboard cards like RiP.

What cards exactly are you going to choose to unban then that shakes up the meta for the better? There's not a lot left, certainly when we rule things out based on cost-prohibitive grounds and the other categories. You're looking at Balance, storm cards, Strip Mine, Fastbond, TC, and DTT - like it's either Fastbond or Balance, and Fastbond goes straight into tier 1 Lands decks as a 4-of. That's where I'm like, guess he must want to unban Balance and something else 'cause that seems like the least format warping.

Ah, OK, I think I have a better idea of where you are coming from.

I didn't mention the price of the card but, yeah, that's certainly an issue too.

I don't really see anywhere where Earthcraft can fit very well that ISN'T Enchantress. Why would you want to play Esper Mentor when you can run Mentor in Miracles and not have to run stuff like Earthcraft and just loop Tops instead? Esper Mentor is too durdly, like Stoneblade. I don't think it's very good.

I don't get it, there are already significantly worse cards for time wasting that are already legal. Some players take forever to resolve Brainstorm. Some people Top endlessly. Some people go to time with Delver for fucks sake. You could make up any scenario with any card or deck where people take too long with, though admittedly some are worse than others of course. No one is going to play Earthcraft in a deck that doesn't play Squirrel Nest. It won't cause issues with time.

Goblin Recruiter is no different than Doomsday in that there are specific piles for certain situations. Memorizing the piles is an important skill in mastering the deck. Besides you don't stack that many Goblins when you cast Recruiter unless you have Food Chain. You wouldn't take Storm to a tournament without testing it would you? The same is no different than Food Chain Goblins. Worrying about what bad players will do with good decks is stupid.

If I had to choose cards to unban to increase format diversity I'd pick Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Survival of the Fittest and Goblin Recruiter. None of those cards help the current blue decks or combo decks which is why I chose them. There are other cards which could be possibly be unbanned but they don't really do much to increase format diversity. Balance, by the way, is just far too powerful of an effect for two mana and it's really easy to abuse. Balance can also be tutored easily with Personal Tutor. It even lets your planeswalkers stick around. Too easy to break.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Ah, OK, I think I have a better idea of where you are coming from.

I didn't mention the price of the card but, yeah, that's certainly an issue too.

I don't really see anywhere where Earthcraft can fit very well that ISN'T Enchantress. Why would you want to play Esper Mentor when you can run Mentor in Miracles and not have to run stuff like Earthcraft and just loop Tops instead? Esper Mentor is too durdly, like Stoneblade. I don't think it's very good.

I don't get it, there are already significantly worse cards for time wasting that are already legal. Some players take forever to resolve Brainstorm. Some people Top endlessly. Some people go to time with Delver for fucks sake. You could make up any scenario with any card or deck where people take too long with, though admittedly some are worse than others of course. No one is going to play Earthcraft in a deck that doesn't play Squirrel Nest. It won't cause issues with time.

Goblin Recruiter is no different than Doomsday in that there are specific piles for certain situations. Memorizing the piles is an important skill in mastering the deck. Besides you don't stack that many Goblins when you cast Recruiter unless you have Food Chain. You wouldn't take Storm to a tournament without testing it would you? The same is no different than Food Chain Goblins. Worrying about what bad players will do with good decks is stupid.

If I had to choose cards to unban to increase format diversity I'd pick Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Survival of the Fittest and Goblin Recruiter. None of those cards help the current blue decks or combo decks which is why I chose them. There are other cards which could be possibly be unbanned but they don't really do much to increase format diversity. Balance, by the way, is just far too powerful of an effect for two mana and it's really easy to abuse. Balance can also be tutored easily with Personal Tutor. It even lets your planeswalkers stick around. Too easy to break.

Those were the exact same 4 cards I mentioned in an earlier post that I wanted unbanned... I guess great minds think alike as they say

[hymnyou]

Earthcraft, mindtwist, g recruiter, survival are all fine. The issue is they are prisoner of xWOTCx until they have to ban a card (fix a mistake).

Unbanning Balance in Legacy is absolutely insane and is probably one of the worst ideas for the format ever. 4 balance in any format is backbreaking, nonetheless Legacy. Balance reads: "I don't lose anymore, fuck you and your magic cards."

[Stevestamopz]

@Amon Amarth

Unfortunately Goblin Recruiter is the victim of the wrong ban. If there had to be a ban Food Chain should have be banned, fast mana is afterall the cause of degeneracy in almost all combo decks. I don't think either should be banned at this point in time, given fucking Show and Tell is somehow a legal card. T2 Emrakul? No problem. T2 Recruiter put 4-5 Gobs on top (which is how you play it, not "stacking your entire deck" as is parroted around)? NO WAY.

It's beyond a joke that Recruiter is still banned given the current state of the format and the cards that keep being printed.

... they just get used in blue decks. Because over a 9+ round event it's hard to beat brainstorm, ponderp and force of will.

There are very few cards that aren't made better when surrounded by cantrips. Thank the baby jesus that WOTC keep printing cards that are only powerful when based around synergy with other cards instead of just printing stand-alone absurd abortions that reward you for playing cantrips.

[twndomn]

If I had to choose cards to unban to increase format diversity I'd pick Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Survival of the Fittest and Goblin Recruiter. None of those cards help the current blue decks or combo decks which is why I chose them. There are other cards which could be possibly be unbanned but they don't really do much to increase format diversity. Balance, by the way, is just far too powerful of an effect for two mana and it's really easy to abuse. Balance can also be tutored easily with Personal Tutor. It even lets your planeswalkers stick around. Too easy to break.

Do you even play competitive Legacy? Who in the right mind would believe that un-ban Survival of the Fittest would increase format diversity? What are you on? As soon as Survival gets unbanned, the question becomes: why would you Not Run Survival? It would be as common as Aether Vial in creature decks.

[Dice_Box]

Do you even play competitive Legacy? Who in the right mind would believe that un-ban Survival of the Fittest would increase format diversity? What are you on? As soon as Survival gets unbanned, the question becomes: why would you Not Run Survival? It would be as common as Aether Vial in creature decks.

I'm not against it. I think I may have played some Legacy in my time too.

[Spam]

Do you even play competitive Legacy? Who in the right mind would believe that un-ban Survival of the Fittest would increase format diversity? What are you on? As soon as Survival gets unbanned, the question becomes: why would you Not Run Survival? It would be as common as Aether Vial in creature decks.

I still have nightmares about vengivines...

[Megadeus]

Do you even play competitive Legacy? Who in the right mind would believe that un-ban Survival of the Fittest would increase format diversity? What are you on? As soon as Survival gets unbanned, the question becomes: why would you Not Run Survival? It would be as common as Aether Vial in creature decks.

Kind of like the question currently is: why would you not run Brainstorm? It's common in EVERY type of deck.

[Stevestamopz]

Kind of like the question currently is: why would you not run Brainstorm? It's common in EVERY type of deck.

Sigged

Inb4, skill testing/pillar of format/enables so many decks that are sooooo different.

[Crimhead]

Kind of like the question currently is: why would you not run Brainstorm? It's common in EVERY type of deck.

Not sure what this question is actually trying to ask.

If you mean "why doesn't every deck run Brainstorm", I think we all understand why decks like Lands, D&T, Merfolk, etc are not running Brainstorm.

If you are asking "why would you not run a Brainstorm deck", this is a silly question. If you can play any of six decks:

• Omnitell
• Miracles
• Canadian Thresh
• Lands
• Eldrazi Shops
• Strawberry Shortcake

You should be asking which of these decks suit your play style and skill set; how each deck is positioned in the current (and local-specific) meta, etc. If you're making your decision on the grounds of which decks do or do not run Brainstorm, that's kind of silly.

It's very immature to sling shit at people who catch your mistakes. I get it that it makes you feel foolish but grow up and deal with it. How are we supposed to know whether you actually meant a gp or scg open when your message contradicts itself.

I did talk about both tournaments in my post. I don't object to bring called out on the error, I object to his tone.

You're contradicting yourself here. Posting wrong links with misleading claims can be viewed as a malignent attempt of deception, hence me calling you out - whether it was intentional or not.

I'll admit to an error here - but we are talking a discrepancy of half a percentage! Miracles was 12% on day two, and 12.5% in the top 8 & top 16. I think "malignant deception" is a bit dramatic here, dont you?

As far as my argument goes, topping slightly above or slightly below the field numbers are the same thing - neither is evidence of an OP deck.

I'm sorry about the elves mix-up; you're the one who plays the G/W Midrange Eldrazi list if I recall. I'm a fan of your work!

But my point that you keep missing is this:
How can a deck be considered dominant if places scantly in such a high percentage of major tournaments? A deck that completely misses the top8's in so many 200+ player events can't possibly be dominating anything imo.

[DarthVicious]

The following cards are banned in legacy tournaments:

Advantageous Proclamation - Conspiracy
Amulet of Quoz - Ante
Ancestral Recall - Unanimous vote of NO
Backup Plan - Conspiracy
Balance - Easily too powerful. If you don't think so, you haven't been playing long enough
Bazaar of Baghdad - Nope
Black Lotus - Way too fast
Brago's Favor - Conspiracy
Bronze Tablet - Ante
Channel - Not since Eldrazi came out
Chaos Orb - Logistics make this impossible. Imagine if everyone put all their permanents three inches apart
Contract from Below - Ante
Darkpact - Ante
Demonic Attorney - Ante
Demonic Consultation - Considering tutors are only as good as the cards they fetch, maybe. Probably not tho
Demonic Tutor - Longshot on this one... just the versatility is strong enough
Dig Through Time - We know how this panned out
Double Stroke - Conspiracy... maybe?
Earthcraft - I vote no... RUG tempo/combo doesn't sound healthy to me
Falling Star - See Chaos Orb
Fastbond - A control deck based on lands should be very slow
Flash - Amazing what kind of cards can lead to turn 2 wins
Frantic Search - This is probably safe
Goblin Recruiter - Probably faster to resolve than consecutive Top activations
Gush - Blue already has enough ways to get cards in their hands
Hermit Druid - This guy might be safe... maybe
Immediate Action - Conspiracy
Imperial Seal - See Demonic Tutor
Iterative Analysis - Conspiracy
Jeweled Bird - Ante
Library of Alexandria - If it were legendary, I'd say this one might be ok. But... it's not.
Mana Crypt - The damage means nothing when you cast S&T turn 1 every game
Mana Drain - Counter your haymaker, hardcast Emrakul? Nope
Mana Vault - Too fast
Memory Jar - Only one card has ever been emergency banned...
Mental Misstep - Let's force everyone to play at least one blue card!
Mind Twist - Noone plays with Mind Shatter... so...
Mind's Desire - What did you say that storm count was again?
Mishra's Workshop - Too fast
Mox Emerald - Early development is a thing, so...
Mox Jet - See Emerald
Mox Pearl - See Jet
Mox Ruby - See Pearl
Mox Sapphire - See Ruby
Muzzio's Preparations - Conspiracy
Mystical Tutor - I knew when this was going to be banned. I go Mystical->AdN, opp goes Mystical->Force, Brainstorm->Force
Necropotence - I want to play with this card. I doubt it will ever happen in Legacy
Oath of Druids - S&T with a built in tutor that punishes your opponent for going aggro...
Power Play - Conspiracy
Rebirth - Ante
Secret Summoning - Conspiracy
Secrets of Paradise - Conspiracy
Sentinel Dispatch - Conspiracy
Shahrazad - Only so much time in the round
Skullclamp - If it was only one card... it'd be a maybe
Sol Ring - Too fast
Strip Mine - Getting wasted out of the game feels bad enough
Survival of the Fittest - Could be ok, Vengevine wouldn't be good against the new Thalia
Tempest Efreet - Ante
Time Vault - Not sure if the Key combo works anymore, been a long time. Don't really care either way
Time Walk - Not for two mana
Timetwister - Draw 7s are pretty strong, see Memory Jar
Timmerian Fiends - Ante
Tinker - Natural Order for artifacts! Yeah... no
Tolarian Academy - Gaea's Cradle for artifacts! Yeah... no
Treasure Cruise - See Dig Through Time
Unexpected Potential - Conspiracy
Vampiric Tutor - See Imperial Seal
Wheel of Fortune - See Timetwister
Windfall - Meh... stronger cards are currently seeing play in my opinion
Worldknit - Conspiracy
Yawgmoth's Bargain - Griselbrand is legal...
Yawgmoth's Will - I'll just Snapcaster every spell in my graveyard... Nope



The whole list. Forgive me if some of the cards I labelled as Conspiracy aren't actually Conspiracy, I only ever played it once.

Let the flaming begin.

[Fox]

Frantic Search is legitimately busted, other than that pretty good list @DarthVicious. Could have saved some time by skipping cards that would be must-plays that add ~$1k+ to the pricetag of legacy. One more issue with Earthcraft is that it can easily become nearly impossible to rewind a gamestate [for judges] when a deck uses it without a demonstrable loop. At BoM Strasbourg it took them what, 15min to try and fix the NicFit vs Shardless mistake of Goyf/Decay x2 cast by 5 lands; this doesn't get better if a mistake is made at some point as Earthcraft is going off.

Maybe Recruiter isn't as much of a time issue anymore, but with it and Earthcraft I'd rather not find out. Still I don't think they qualify as cards that would change the meta. Like @Twndomn reiterates, Survival probably not healthy for diversity - moreso due to the over-representation of Abrupt Decay, which is a product of Counterbalance. Suggestions like unban Survival, ban Terminus only goes 1 way: gradual move to one type of fair deck: BG/BGx (4xDRs, 4xDecay, 4xSurvival, same discard answers for combo m/u).

[Barook]

I'll admit to an error here - but we are talking a discrepancy of half a percentage! Miracles was 12% on day two, and 12.5% in the top 8 & top 16. I think "malignant deception" is a bit dramatic here, dont you?

As far as my argument goes, topping slightly above or slightly below the field numbers are the same thing - neither is evidence of an OP deck.

I'm sorry about the elves mix-up; you're the one who plays the G/W Midrange Eldrazi list if I recall. I'm a fan of your work!

But my point that you keep missing is this:
How can a deck be considered dominant if places scantly in such a high percentage of major tournaments? A deck that completely misses the top8's in so many 200+ player events can't possibly be dominating anything imo.

Nobody talked about 0.5% error margins, especially given that Top 8s can only work in 12.5% steps.

As for the dominance thing, we have the DtB section which keeps track of events rather nicely. As bigger events with more rounds get more points, event size is also included. And when looking at the numbers, Miracles is always either on top or a close second, even during the Delve era, for a very long time now. No other deck has that kind of dominant performance.

[maharis]

Nobody talked about 0.5% error margins, especially given that Top 8s can only work in 12.5% steps.

As for the dominance thing, we have the DtB section which keeps track of events rather nicely. As bigger events with more rounds get more points, event size is also included. And when looking at the numbers, Miracles is always either on top or a close second, even during the Delve era, for a very long time now. No other deck has that kind of dominant performance.

we all can see it but when it's pointed out we get a lot of noise about how it's legacy's "only control deck" (not true) so people who would be on more diverse decks don't because they have no choice but to run miracles (boo hoo)

The thing is that even if this contention is true (which again it totally is not) that doesn't change a couple facts:

-If you think control decks HAVE TO PLAY LIKE NO CREATURES OMG then Miracles isn't really a control deck at all. There was a build with 4 mentors that just top 8d a GP and most have 5-9 at this point, which isn't really that much worse than 4 sfm and a couple snaps, MAYBE a TNN/clique that would be in the more controlling Stoneblade builds. Standstill decks would have even fewer actual creatures in them and while Standstill isn't the worst card against miracles, miracles' CQ is pretty high and boarding blood moon is pretty harsh for Mishra's Factory decks.

-There is, of course, one true creatureless control deck in Legacy and that deck is Lands. Doesn't play blue though so it's a prison deck you see (as though countertop isn't a prison element)

-There is no guarantee that your deck gets to live just because it's a "beloved" archetype. Oppressive is oppressive. People love powerful decks of all kinds.

[Finn]

I'm trying very hard not to have skin in the current fight. I just want to say that Brainstorm does not fit well with Survival of the Fittest. They can coexist, but the resulting deck is less than optimal as a result. When Vengevine Survival decks were all the rage, it was notable for being faster at dealing creature damage than zoo and still managing to have Brainstorm and Force of Will - which gave it game against fast combo. That was a clear no-no.Survival of the Fittest has a lot of moving parts (needs creatures, graveyard, an activation of a permanent, a setup turn, etc.) There are a lot of new ways to deal with it that did not exist when last it drew breath in this format. And, as per my zoo comparison, the format is faster. Combined, the issues it has with Brainstorm might just be a big deal. Zoo is not remotely competitive any more, so I just don't think we have a proper comparison available to us to say "too good" or "safe".

[Barook]

-There is, of course, one true creatureless control deck in Legacy and that deck is Lands. Doesn't play blue though so it's a prison deck you see (as though countertop isn't a prison element)

Why are people arguing now what control decks are prison decks? That distinction seems rather silly as any control deck's ultimate goal is to control the game aka preventing your opponent from what he/she wants to do. If you don't control your opponent's game, your deck is probably more of a midrange deck.

Countertop does lock certain decks out of games. It's a bonafide prison element.

[iatee]

I don't think they could unban Survival without doing extensive testing and I don't think they particularly want to do extensive testing. It's harder to unban a tutor effect since there are so many possible avenues for abuse. And similar to Pod in Modern, it would limit new cards they could print or just create new problems when some new Vengevine card appears. I think banning Vengevine and unbanning Survival would probably actually be a pretty good solution, though I don't know off the top of my head whether or not some other broken engine also exists.

[Dice_Box]

I don't think they could unban Survival without doing extensive testing and I don't think they particularly want to do extensive testing. It's harder to unban a tutor effect since there are so many possible avenues for abuse. And similar to Pod in Modern, it would limit new cards they could print or just create new problems when some new Vengevine card appears. I think banning Vengevine and unbanning Survival would probably actually be a pretty good solution, though I don't know off the top of my head whether or not some other broken engine also exists.

Yea, Loyal Retainers is the other engine.

[iatee]

So Survival = t4 Griselbrand (or Emrakul even, since you can do it on the stack) assuming no disruption? T3 with a dork. That's probably too strong overall but it's close.

[Dice_Box]

So Survival = t4 Griselbrand (or Emrakul even, since you can do it on the stack) assuming no disruption? T3 with a dork. That's probably too strong overall but it's close.

It can, but that's the combo build. It needs Survival to run. The Vengvine build can play out as a midrange deck if it fails to find Survival.

Both versions where played, Bant Survival was only about a third as popular as Vengvine builds. The other build that was common was Ooze. Since you could load up the graveyard and then drop an Ooze for massive profit. Each of these decks have an issue with Leyline or RIP.

I think with the printing of Reclamation Sage the deck would now have an out to RIP resolving, but then you have to account for digging and casting the card while hoping your don't either die, lose your lands to DnT or eat an Abrupt Decay.

Survival does not scare me. It's a card that does something, I will agree to that, but I think that is to the benefit not detriment of the format. Our recent unbannings have been jokes. I am all for something of real substance coming of the list and enough shit has been printed that Survival is not at all the threat it once was.

Also what deck can you name is able to run Enchantment removal, RIP, creature exile and board wipes that don't put Vengvines in the grave? I don't think Survival would be an issue at all.

Edit.
On Grizzlebees, SnT does it better.