This is awesome! #MTGComboLifeOriginally Posted by LDX
LDX: Your last post was on point, and said what I was trying to much more eloquently....and accurately. Figuring out when your odds are the best, mathematically, and going for it, because in some games, you won't reach 100%, you might only reach 60%, but if those are as good as the odds are going to get, I'm happy to take them. The hard part is figuring out, when your odds of winning are not going to go up anymore, or else you end up taking unnecessary risks that you didn't have to take.
I want to discuss your testing of Shattering Spree and Pulverize. I went back on TheEpicStorm and searched up all your articles, and found two in which you were playing Shattering Spree. In one of those instances, it never became relevant, and in the other article, you wrote about how you misplayed it due to you being used to Chalice set on 0, not 1. I didn't find much else about your experience testing it there. I also noticed that you were running the manabase without Badlands. Do you think you'd have access to the RR more often if you were playing the Badlands? Before I swapped in Badlands, I would hardly ever purposely choose to have both Volcanics out at the same time. But since I've taken out a Volcanic and added the Badlands, I find myself with Volcanic and Badlands on the table pretty often by choice. Do you think you'd get different results with today's manabase if you test again?
I've been thinking about Pulverize more though, and I'm starting to come around to it in my mind. The situations where I'd rather have Pulverize are the ones where I can win that turn if it wasn't for that stupid Chalice @ 1. If I can't win the turn I cast Pulverize, I'd rather have Shattering Spree, assuming that there are two mountains in play the same that I'd have to have for Pulverize. Shattering Spree has more strategic value, but in the same way the CoV wasn't chosen for its niche ability to increase your own storm count, I wouldn't look to opt for Shattering Spree just because it can break the occasional Batterskull or something, but I do like that I can cast it regardless of whether or not I'm trying to go off that turn.
Having a way to beat Chalice and other nasty artifacts G1 instead of just rolling over and dying is important to me. My local meta features D&T, as well as Lands. The last event I played got paired with Imperial Painter, and MUD in the first two rounds. MUD I was able to come back from somehow and take the match 2-1, but I lost G1 to Chalice on 1 from Imperial Painter and it cost me the match.
There comes a point where one cannot devote a sideboard slot to every possible situation. You're right, TES is a gutsy deck. But there's toolboxing a wishboard, and then there's overdoing it because you feel like you need to make sure you've got a way to beat Shared Fate Combo. I'm trying to avoid going too far in that direction, but I'm getting sick of thinking "man, if I just had ONE card that nuked artifacts that I could wish for, I could at least fight, but Chalice on 1 feels bad when all I've got is Void Snare"
Honestly if you're that worried about Leyline of Sanctity you may just want to play Telemin's Performace/Bribery and go for the win that way instead of playing for the bounce or Goblins, what makes Void Snare an arguable card is that it has some value post board vs random hate like Pyrostatic Pillar. Tutoring for answers just really has to be stupidly cost efficient or the only possible way to win - otherwise the hate does its job either way.
thank you so much guys, you really help me a lot, opening my mind and giving me an hand to see things in a different way! ^^
Want to elaborate how you expect that to work?
I fully agree on the last sentence.
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Yeah I really didn't word that as carefully as I should've; I didn't mean use Telemin's Performance in order to circumvent Leyline of Sanctity, I meant use Telemin's Performance instead of Void Snare in the Sneak/Show match up as your "meta" card since you're only playing Void Snare for that deck anyway. i.e. concentrate on improving the match up elsewhere.
I hear you. I have the same difficulties; mindset is on the line, but the ability to actually play the cards relative to this mindset is were I'm stuck. I guess every players have their own challenges, from conceptualization to playability or budget or what have you.
Yeah that was a lack of my part. The series can cut in four pieces:
1) Wtf can't win please help
2) Shattering Spree/Echoing Truth lords and saviours!
3) Still can't win, all that work for nothing
4) Oh, I couldn't win THAT DECK, but I still won the league, there must be something deeper, I understood something!
So in the end Shattering Spree provide no results. I just chose to call it off after more playtests on Cockatrice, it was never helping. I thought it was the solution to a problem you don't seem to be unknown to, it wasn't for some reasons mentioned previously (TL;DR impossible to get enough red mana)
No. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I wouldn't think so. And anyway, I believe these mana could be better spent elsewhere. (TL;DR tap for mana, then sacrifice the mountains, then cast spells)
There are two things in that segment. From my (limited) experience, the play you propose with Shattering Spree, playing it before your winning turn, isn't possible because of Wasteland. If it wasn't from Wasteland, as I said in my articles, Abrupt Decay could have been a solution. There was no scenarios, and I mean 0, in which I could have Shattering Spree/win next turn. None. That's my first point, I get that you could feel differently because you have to deal with different situations, and that your needs and mines, or at least how you prioritize the value you're seeking out of your answers, can be different.
However, the second point implies that Shattering Spree is the solution for your issue, or at least the solution that seems to be the best for you. To that, I would advice to think again. I mean I got fooled by the card, bought a playset and never used it after. Maybe your outcome will be different, but it didn't work for me.
I feel the same ,and it's why Void Snare is now a Pulverize for me. Takes one slot, can be wished, allows me to win on the spot. If I was facing a lot of Miracles deck, things would be different, but I haven't so far. The important thing is to know you have to find your ratio, and only after that is understood, you can start tweaking things to get the best coefficient. I'm sure you understand that too.
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I think it should be quoted in both Storm primers, esp. regarding Grim Tutor in AnT.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Problem with this is that Snare provides outs in situations where you can afford the mana (post-Ad Nauseam), where Telemin Performance's role has been diminished by Dark Petition.
Void Snare was never a meta card against Show and Tell for me. I don't even see what it does in that matchup to be honest, I've kept a very positive record against those decks and never cast that card against them in my life.
As Bryant said, Snare is there to remove stuff we can't win through otherwise, especially game 1 when we don't have Decays yet. A few of the most common things I've done with it in the past include:
- Bounce a resolved Iona on black against Dredge or Reanimator for 1UR total mana and kill them after
- Bounce a resolved Platinum Emperion/Angel against MUD post Ad Nauseam.
- Bounce Leyline of Sanctity against Enchantress post-AN where making 20+ Goblins isn't guaranteed to win.
- Bounce a Game 1 turn 2 Gaddock Teeg from Maverick/Elves.
- I've even managed to remove Eidolon with it against Burn or Thorn against Eldrazi and still win the game a few times, though that involves a lot of luck to work.
Two of the guys in my playgroup who I play against the most currently play Chaos Elves and MUD, so Snare isn't going anywhere for now.
That said, in order to figh the Eldrazis I also have a Meltdown in my board. I'm swapping it and Pulverize back and forth, trying to figure out what's better, but I haven't come to a final conclusion yet. Pulverize is usually better against Thorns or a mix of Chalice/Thorn, Meltdown is much more reliable in general and better agaist just Chalices. Running Pulverize into a Wail is game over too.
Grapeshot or EtW. No argument
Grapeshot
The matchup is 0,26% of the metagame and only in 1 decklist there were 2 Leylines
Thats why you play TES. Combo before hate comes down ... and Grapeshot!
A 5 mana reactive play against eldrazi which "won" the game? *RisesEyebrow*
Don't understand that one
More 4+ mana plays against eldrazi (thorn)?
Eating wasteland in response to Burning Wish is too
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It's weird, everytime I post here and I read the responses it makes me never want to post again.
Winning with Grapeshot while all your black spells are turned off? That's not happening. Except if you're trying to Grapeshot the Iona, in which case you're probably empty handed after that and your Reanimator or Dredge opponent just neds to find their next reanimation spell. With ETW it's possible but extremely unlikely. What I did was bounce the Iona on turn 3 with Wish into Snare, then win the turn after. ETW and Grapeshot are useless there.
Grapeshot does it too, yes. I'm not running Grapeshot any more because Void Snare solves a lot of the same issues and those that it doesn't solve have come up very rarely for me in the last few months. I had far more situations in which I needed specifically Void Snare than I wished I had a Grapeshot in my board.
This does not change the fact that it happened. A card like Void Snare is generally a card that I run as a catch all for whatever problematic permanent my opponent might present me with game 1. And it did its job here.
It's not a very reliable strategy to rely on exactly a turn 1 kill in this matchup when I'm on the draw. It's not a big deal to wish for Snare on turn 2 and then kill turn 3 starting the turn with Void Snare on Teeg. That stuff comes up regularly when playing against decks with 5 copies of Teeg in the main, I don't see why it's wrong to have an out to that. Grapeshot costs 1 extra mana which can be a huge deal.
Yes. Void Snare cost 2 mana the turn I went off, but the active thorn would have cost infinitely more and I would not have been able to play through it before his random spaghettis killed me.
I face that stuff a lot because those people are always at the same local that I attend.
Everyone plays 4 Chalices in their Eldrazi decks, but not all of them play 4 Thorn. The list that just won the BOM this weekend had zero Thorns main. Some people play like 2. Killing 2 Chalices (one for 1, one for 0) for 2+2 mana is one of the very few ways to beat a turn 1 double chalice draw. Pulverize is also possible, but as I said, the mana situation is too unreliable for my taste.
Indeed.
I feel the same every time I read about decktechs which require your opponent to make significant play-errors first like dropping Iona @ red
EtW is a two-turn clock, while Iona is a three turn one, so racing her with goblins isn't unheared off. Most of TES' wishboard is limited to common scenario options or situations you cannot work around. Iona @ black is a gamestate you still CAN win and is not a common one as its a fundamental mistake made. For me this particular scenario is not an argument to bring VS to a GP or SCG open
This is kinda interresting to discuss the number and type of non-creatures you bounce with the BW->VS playline resulting into a win game 1 without alternative. For me its a marginal amount total ... irrelevant to dedicate a SB slot. Even more with Leyline of Sanctity completely forgotten by most players
"happened" and "did its job" is key. We can say the same about Diminishing Returns. The value of card is waxing and waning with the metagame and one of the mayor points of VS was having it when Leyline was common in sideboards, so we didn't need to board Chain of Vapor (another card which did its job, but isn't good atm)
Elves play discard (Cabal Therapy & Thoughtseize), so sitting on the VS is tricky. Mind that there is a maximum of 1 out of three games where you CAN be on the draw with no solution for Teeg in the 60 and in this single game you can still be fastee than your opponent. Its a matter of odds versus SB space
Its just that I cannot remember having encountered a situation against eldrazi where I could have wished for a VS and acually win with it next turn. Thats all
In that case you could play Deathmark and achieve even better results. Building Sideboards for Local metagames is totally different from the generic sideboard we usually discuss here
You could board Ancient Grudge if that is a recurring local problem or fancy stuff like Culling Scales :)
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Weird indeed...
I see Burning Wish as a toolbox card. I want my toolbox to have as many tools as possible in it. I also play Meltdown, Void Snare and Grapeshot.
I would also agree that the idea of giving up fringe matchups to have a better sideboard vs the more popular decks is a better idea. I just don't care. I'm willing to bet if someone worked out the math, it wouldn't affect the win/loss all that much.
I also play Diminishing Returns because sometimes I just fuck up and need to spin to win.
Then I recommend to add at least Hull Breach, Revoke Existance, Reverent Silence, TimeSpiral, Doomsday, Reforge The Souls, Bribery, TeleminPerformance and SlaughterGames too and remove the crappy Abrupt Decays eating up the toolbox space
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In all fairness, a lot of Reanimator players name Black instead of Red game 1, because it's not obvious we're playing TES instead of ANT to them unless they Duress and see Rite of Flames, Burning Wish or Chrome Mox; and even in the case of Burning Wish and Chrome Mox I've still had people put me on ANT.
I mean look at the number of people who have SBed in RIP vs TES in tournament reports, if people can make such an obvious mistake game 2 then I think it's fair to assume they can make an honest mistake game 1.
I think Void Snare is a fair enough card to play vs fringe hate, if you don't want to go the extra Warrens or PIF/Tendrils route. I like just being able to SB it in if nothing else.
depends on if we talk local metagames or generic tournaments. Should we expect the same opponent to make the same mistake every week to justify VS? Just to get it right: I have no problem with VS as safety net even if I personally, don't think its worth the spot and therefore chopped it. Its just irritating to ground the arguments for VS as being irreplaceable on crucial opponent mistakes as well as decks/cards without metagame presence in the context of a SCG open or the like.
We as a commumity should gear the 75 according to the actual metagame and I can't see us covering every deck with 0,26% metagame presence with dedicated SB tools, rarher than adressing the common ones with actual sideboard cards. We came a long way to slim down the Wishboard over the last 5 years to the core of ToA/EtW/DP/PIF with plenty of space to fight back the metagame with actual sideboard cards. I can remember times with double the amount of wishboard space.
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Even in my LGS people never know what I play, because I switch between ANT, TNT and TES all the time and never give away info before the tourneys.
A lot of cards almost become hit or miss if you don't know what variant of Storm you're playing against. A lot of decks have either Iona, Meddling Mages or Cabal Therapies and all of them are a guessing game when they're blind. I've had Meddling Mages on IT against me and next turn I Wish-Massacred their board away. I've also had them name Wish when I had zero in my 75. Most people I think would agree that black is by far the safest blind name with Iona against an unknown Storm opponent. If simply due to the fact that it looks incredibly dumb to put it on Red and get killed via AN next turn. If you put it on black and they end up bouncing it with Wish into Snare you at least made them go out of their way to beat you.
This is mostly about the Reanimator matchup though. Against Dredge you realistically won't ever beat a resolved Iona because 1) They'll most likely have enough Zombies and Ichorids to present a 1 turn clock and turn off any ETW lines, 2) If they were smart they Therapied you for BWish and then put Iona on Black or on whatever shuts down your current hand the most. I've only managed to beat a resolved Iona against Dredge once, so it's not representative.
I don't think our SBs are at the point where 1 card here or there makes a significant difference on cutting post-board business, 4 Decay 2 Hurkyl's 2 Duress is already quite a payload as it is. From a principled point of view I can understand where you're comming from, but from a practical point of view what are the 2 slots for Massacre and Void Snare preventing us from metagaming against with more post-board business? I mean I like to screw around with the +1 Tendril/PIF, +2 Empty the Warrens etc. but nothing that's used in those slots otherwise is particularly pivotal or anything. If people want to run a miser's Telemin Performance, Diminishing Returns, Meltdown, Pulverize, Void Snare, Massacre, Reverent Silence, Reanimate or whatever I think you've got to cut them a bit of slack.
Wait a second Lemnear. Are you saying you always combo off G1 T1 against Elves and never see a Teeg T2? Or are you saying if you see Teeg T2 you just fold since you didn't go off T1?As Bryant said, Snare is there to remove stuff we can't win through otherwise, especially game 1 when we don't have Decays yet. A few of the most common things I've done with it in the past include:
- Bounce a Game 1 turn 2 Gaddock Teeg from Maverick/Elves.
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