All B/R update speculation.

[Stan]

It's obviously a less efficient alternative, but I can imagine people trying to use Scroll Rack together with Counterbalance, in the absence of top.

[Lemnear]

If you want to hurt this deck without killing it, ban Terminus, or possibly Mentor.

I can't take you serious. As if Mentor has anything to do with Miracles position in the metagame. Its like banning Necrotic Ooze but leaving Survival in the format

[rufus]

It's obviously a less efficient alternative, but I can imagine people trying to use Scroll Rack together with Counterbalance, in the absence of top.

Considering that top is the Blinking Spirit of artifacts, it's a huge difference.

[Mr Miagi]

I'm not superfan of Miracles, although I find the deck ebatable, but is very annoying and grueling, uphill battle for non miracle deck. I would really hate if top was banned. There is just few nonblue decks that are ahppily using it to a less perverted degree as miracles does and I would really hate if they would suffer becasue of this deck. The longer I play legacy the more I see Brainstorm as a real offender of the format. It's not healthy for every freaking blue deck to run this card and crap on all other decks who don't have it. I mean, just look at the results. consistency in longer torunament is a thing and Brainstorm provides rather unfair advantage. But let's be honest, they would ban legacy as aformat before banning Brainstorm. Some cards are just to "pillar-y" (is that even a word? lol) to the format in their eyes so.. not gonna happen. SDT might likely be banned just becasue they hate the card and all the "time consuming" argument etc etc.. slow players will be slow regardless of the deck they play, but I'm not the one with the banhammer in hand so.. I might just stop right here.

From the wish list, pelase unban Frantic search, I just want to play Reset-tide so badly and my Mud would like to toy around with memory jar (although I don't think it would be that great in the deck but hey, I wish I could have the chance to crack it somewhere besides Vintage)

[Crimhead]

I can't take you serious. As if Mentor has anything to do with Miracles position in the metagame.

When have you ever taken me serious?

Most would agree that mentor shore up any weaknesses Miracles might have and makes the deck much harder to hate. Other people would argue that giving a defensive control deck this strong aggro route is part of what makes the deck broken.

Also, Eldrazi was expected to take a bigger dent out of Miracles meta share than it did. I play neither deck, so I'm not an expert on the match-up. But I do understand that Eldrazis have a hard time dealing with any deck which can "go wide".

Anyway, all I'm saying is that a Mentor ban would hurt the deck - I'm not saying it would hurt it very much. But then again I don't personally think Miracles needs to be hurt very much.

Are you saying a Mentor ban wouldn't hurt Miracles whatsoever, or are you saying it wouldn't hurt it as much as you'd like?

[Stan]

Considering that top is the Blinking Spirit of artifacts, it's a huge difference.

Yes, without any argument. Still, Scroll Rack would allow you to dig several cards deep, and together with Counterbalance you'd be able to stack your library to counter one single spell each time. If top would never have been printed, I can guarantee you that people would have tried it out with rack. They'd have discovered that the deck would be subpar, tier 2 at best, but somebody would have tried it. Considering how expensive it is to buy into any single legacy deck, a hypothetical top ban would probably lead to people trying scroll rack, before letting go of their very expensive pet deck.

[Lemnear]

When have you ever taken me serious?

Most would agree that mentor shore up any weaknesses Miracles might have and makes the deck much harder to hate. Other people would argue that giving a defensive control deck this strong aggro route is part of what makes the deck broken.

Also, Eldrazi was expected to take a bigger dent out of Miracles meta share than it did. I play neither deck, so I'm not an expert on the match-up. But I do understand that Eldrazis have a hard time dealing with any deck which can "go wide".

Anyway, all I'm saying is that a Mentor ban would hurt the deck - I'm not saying it would hurt it very much. But then again I don't personally think Miracles needs to be hurt very much.

Are you saying a Mentor ban wouldn't hurt Miracles whatsoever, or are you saying it wouldn't hurt it as much as you'd like?

I'd say, t wouldn't help any of the vanished aggro strategies like Junk, Maverick, Jund, Goblins, etc. to return back to the format without still getting crushed by Terminus/Tendrils/ShowAndTell like pre-Mentor. It would neither solve logistic issues of the deck going to time over and over, stalling players into undesired draws by the 1cc artifact [ - eat at least 15 seconds of matchtime]

The 3rd placed Miracles played 0 Mentors, the 9th place 2 in the SB, the 15th 2 in the MB and the 30th 4 in the Maindeck, which is extraordinary funny for the statistics of Mentor in Worcester. Banning Mentor is as relevant as banning Venser or Clique. Its no help for the decks which need help struggling between CB and Terminus

[Mr Miagi]

Ppl, ppl, let's not forget that miracles is just one layer of what killed agro in legacy. First there was Tarmogoyf (to some degree), then it was SFM with it's pacakge of batterskull and jitte, then it was terminus+whole miracle deck, and then at last, there is the stupid abortion in the form of TNN.

So yeah, to bad for legacy. I really miss when Zoo was tier one, good times, good times.

[Lemnear]

Ppl, ppl, let's not forget that miracles is just one layer of what killed agro in legacy. First there was Tarmogoyf (to some degree), then it was SFM with it's pacakge of batterskull and jitte, then it was terminus+whole miracle deck, and then at last, there is the stupid abortion in the form of TNN.

So yeah, to bad for legacy. I really miss when Zoo was tier one, good times, good times.

Yeah and Terminus/Counterbalance is able to dominate all the creature powercreep despite. Should give an idea on how uneven the battlefield is with Miracles on one aide of the table

[Crimhead]

Mentor is never getting banned, but it does help the deck. Even decks that don't run it benefit, because the opponent is at a guess and might have to hedge against it.

Also I'm not saying this would help Zoo, Maverick, Junk, etc (and Miracles is not Goblins' problem, I think). I'm saying it would make life easier on the currently strong decks which have to face it.

Ppl, ppl, let's not forget that miracles is just one layer of what killed agro in legacy. First there was Tarmogoyf (to some degree), then it was SFM with it's pacakge of batterskull and jitte, then it was terminus+whole miracle deck, and then at last, there is the stupid abortion in the form of TNN.

So yeah, to bad for legacy. I really miss when Zoo was tier one, good times, good times.

I think he's talking more about aggressive mid-range decks, which actually benefited from Goyf & SFM.

[hyp3r1on]

The above posts pretty much illustrate exactly why I don't want Miracles to leave the format. It's basically impossible to play a hard blue-based non-Miracles control deck in the current Legacy format with the amount of power-creeped creatures Wizards prints these days. I remember playing UWR Landstill at GPDC and I lost on 3 separate occasions to my Maverick opponents playing Thrun. I don't really want the Legacy to devolve into a format where every non-combo deck is a midrange jerk off like in Modern where its a race to play the most stupid creatures and no one has to respect cards like Terminus. Monastery Mentor is an extremely stupid card that should never have been printed period. That said it makes no sense to ban it.

[Sidneyious]

Leave my blue and artifact cards alone.

Ban terminus.

[MorphBerlin]

Let's be real: If Miracles is at the point where they are looking for an Entreat, they've likely already won and we are at turn 7+. If you, as a Delver/Stoneblade/Sneak pilot are at turn 7 and cantripping for gas, you're pretty beat. There's quite a fundamental difference between the decks. Most decks have an aggressive approach to (most) matchups; Miracles doesn't. It's build defensively, which means it has a ton of cards it doesn't use well, but are needed.

Untrue, as a Shardless palyer I have been so far ahead on Miracles on turn 7+ just to get beat by an EoT Entreat. There is no way of playing around it, other than sandbagging a Counterspell, because other decks don't get the luxury of playing an instant wrath effect.

Miracles is a powerful deck, but I'm all for an unbanning first over a banning to try to correct it all.

But one thing I agree if Joe did say people aren't really boarding for Miracles as much as they should. If you're not running Needles, Rods, Boils, etc. then I'm not sure how you think you're winning those games.

Maybe we should do an anti-Miracles podcast.

I just looked at the T8 Lists again and see:
Delver Decks: #1 with Needle, Nul Rod, 2 Blasts and #5 with maindeck Decays, 2 Needles, Flusterstorm
Lands: 4 KGrip, 2 Boil, 1 Chalice and maybe 4 Sphere
Reanimator: 3 Decays, 2 Needles, Flsuterstorm
Infect, KGrip, Needle, Seal, Flusterstorm, N. Claim

So I don't really see how people are not packing enough Sb cards. Of course if you think a deck is fine until people start playing maindeck hate we are in a ok situation...

[...]A more likely scenario is that the miracles player plays top turn 1, his opponent needles on his turn and the miracles guy choses to let his top be a blank on the field or draw it again next turn, possibly drawing blank CB or other tops in the future abd having to hope to draw several BS to shuffle all the dead cards and find WT, possibly while being beaten up by a delver.[....]

Yeah with 1-2 needles against 4 SDT this - both playes playing their stuff - is the more likely scenario, then you drawing you needle at one point in the game where top is allready in play and/or CB... You should run some math on that

[Barook]

It's basically impossible to play a hard blue-based non-Miracles control deck in the current Legacy format with the amount of power-creeped creatures Wizards prints these days.

The same could be said about aggro where Miracles had its part to kill it for good.

Besides, it's easy to say that there aren't any blue hard control decks left, considering Miracles killed that kind of diversity as well by outclassing everything else.

[Megadeus]

The same could be said about aggro where Miracles had its part to kill it for good.

Besides, it's easy to say that there aren't any blue hard control decks left, considering Miracles killed that kind of diversity as well by outclassing everything else.

This. One reason for no hard control deck like stand still or whatever is that miracles is just a better version of whatever those decks are attempting to do. Why ruin 3 and 4 mana sweepers when you get W Instant wrath? Why run stand still and a pile of counters when you can simply play CB and completely lock decks out? Why run any shitty finisher when you can entreat for a bunch or mentor people?

[Michael Keller]

I'm honestly more interested to see if anything gets unbanned as opposed to the opposite. The last few unbannings haven't yielded anything broken, so here's to hoping something comes off the list.

[dragonwisdom]

I'm honestly more interested to see if anything gets unbanned as opposed to the opposite. The last few unbannings haven't yielded anything broken, so here's to hoping something comes off the list.

Have to praise this thought. Survival needs to come off, Earthcraft needs to come off, memory jar could stand to come off as well.

Also Wotc went out of it's way to print cards good cards against storm and dredge and they could print something good to hose brainstorm and top.

I hate when they ban cards.

[Dice_Box]

Memory Jar? No sadly. It can not. It is just too strong. A draw 7 that you can delay for 5 mana? Storm would use it, of course, but I would hate to think what a pair of these would do in Eldrazi. I know that seems really silly on the fore, thinking about how crazy the draw 7 would be in Storm, but I would really fear a draw effect like this in Stompy.

[MorphBerlin]

I'm honestly more interested to see if anything gets unbanned as opposed to the opposite. The last few unbannings haven't yielded anything broken, so here's to hoping something comes off the list.

Unbannings were discussed at length in the last 10-20 pages. No need to warm that up again.

[Fox]

Memory Jar? No sadly. It can not. It is just too strong. A draw 7 that you can delay for 5 mana? Storm would use it, of course, but I would hate to think what a pair of these would do in Eldrazi. I know that seems really silly on the fore, thinking about how crazy the draw 7 would be in Storm, but I would really fear a draw effect like this in Stompy.

It's also fairly careless to say Jar is ok after the printing of Thing in the Ice. I also can't imagine Jar would make storm mirrors very fun unless your definition of fun is taking out skill for total variance in a scenario where IT is useless and he/she who finds PiF first wins (if they are forced to use Jar defensively the turn after casting).