All B/R update speculation.

[Fox]

Bull. Miracles doesn't have the breft of answers that a deck like Delver does against combo. It's not holding down Storm, Beltcher or Oops. I would rather see Miracles on the other side of the table than Grixis Delver if I am playing ANT.

Miracles gone fast combo does what? Takes over the format suddenly while the community suddenly agrees in unison that Force, Daze and Spell Pierce are not worth running anymore? I doubt it.

In unrelated news, Counterspells are still a thing in Legacy.

Definitely agree here with @Dice_Box and @Lemnear, you don't want to bring hyper-combo anywhere near decks like Reanimator, Delver, or any blue deck that wants to win with primarily 1-drops.
I do disagree though about ANT wanting to see Miracles more than Grixis Delver; it definitely attacks both the hand and the stack but it doesn't require "doesn't help me win" cards (like Decay). Most importantly, Grixis can't float a card like Flusterstorm on the top of their deck endlessly.

From a hyper-combo perspective, decks that run bad cards (removal) are generally laughable. Go on believing though that that 4x Terminus and 4x StP is what's keeping the format free of the Belchers of legacy.

[Lemnear]

So Delver and Delver alone is now the hero that saves us from the unwashed combo barbarians? I thought we wanted format diversity?

... oh, we also decided to not play Chalice, Thorn, Bloodmoon, Medsling Mage, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Discard and many more in a post-Miracles metagame? You are a desperate troll

[Dice_Box]

So Delver and Delver alone is now the hero that saves us from the unwashed combo barbarians? I thought we wanted format diversity?

No, Delver becomes one part of a rotation.

1. Tempo loses to Midrange and Lands.
2. Midrange and Lands lose to Combo.
3. Combo loses to Tempo.
4. Elves becomes a thing again.

I don't see the issue there.

[iatee]

I think people overrate the elegance of a rock-paper-scissors format. Aiming to have a format with many strong decks with 45-55% matchups against everything is much better than having to show up to a tournament with rock and hoping to dodge paper all day. And Miracles is much more of a 45-55% deck than people think, especially when people know how to play against it and have a board for it.

Ultimately much of Miracles' success (and why people have the illusion that it's more than a 45-55% deck) is due to good players outplaying their opponents. The deck is not some force of nature that just operates on its own.

[Crimhead]

The idea that the format here Miracles to keep combo down is strange to me. Combo is struggling these days as it is - throwing combo a bone would (in and of itself) be a good thing.

I think the best way to help combo would be via unbanning. Twist could give Elves a decent boost, and the return of Enchantress (via Earthcraft) would provide combo with more prey.

No, Delver becomes one part of a rotation.

1. Tempo loses to Midrange and Lands.
2. Midrange and Lands lose to Combo.
3. Combo loses to Tempo.
4. Elves becomes a thing again.

I don't see the issue there.

My only issue would a lack of permission based hard control. I realise some people don't care about that; just like some people didn't care when we had no aggro decks and some people currently don't care that there is currently sweet little in the way of blueless midrange.

Speaking of aggro, where do Eldrazis fit in that model?

[Fox]

Ultimately much of Miracles' success (and why people have the illusion that it's more than a 45-55% deck) is due to good players outplaying their opponents. The deck is not some force of nature that just operates on its own.

Yeah, and people in Vintage who assemble Time Vault and Voltaic Key are outplaying their opponents. I wouldn't be so quick to associate "outplaying" with tapping a land or SDT to counter a spell, and that's the largest reason for miracles' success.

[CutthroatCasual]

Bull. Miracles doesn't have the breft of answers that a deck like Delver does against combo. It's not holding down Storm, Beltcher or Oops. I would rather see Miracles on the other side of the table than Grixis Delver if I am playing ANT.

Miracles gone fast combo does what? Takes over the format suddenly while the community suddenly agrees in unison that Force, Daze and Spell Pierce are not worth running anymore? I doubt it.

In unrelated news, Counterspells are still a thing in Legacy.

Because there's no threat of a free counterspell in an enchantment anymore. If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat. If they ban Top, no one plays control. If they ban CB, well then no one plays control and Miracles decks become Midrange Mentor.

So with CounterTop not being played, you don't have to worry about being locked out of a game if you're on combo and whiff on your first go-around. Delver will have Daze, which only works in early turns.

[Dice_Box]

But where is the rule that says we have to sacrifice the long term health of the format so a control deck can exist? That argument, I am sorry, I don't buy it. If Lands became that dominant arguing that the format needs Prison decks would not save it so I don't buy it here.

[rlesko]

I'm tired of hearing about how "skill intensive Miracles is". Its so skill intensive to play a one sided combo that locks your opponent out of the game. Its so skill intensive to cast 1 mana wraths. Its so skill intensive to cast monastery mentor with two tops in play. C'mon people, stop giving the deck more credit than it deserves. Its overpowered as fuck, I don't know why we can't just acknowledge that.

[Lemnear]

The idea that the format here Miracles to keep combo down is strange to me. Combo is struggling these days as it is - throwing combo a bone would (in and of itself) be a good thing.

I think the best way to help combo would be via unbanning. Twist could give Elves a decent boost, and the return of Enchantress (via Earthcraft) would provide combo with more prey.

Combo needs no help. Storm and S&T are in a good spot and fringe combo decks make a showing here and there.

My only issue is a lack of permission based hard control.

Other than that, where do Eldrazis (aggro) fit in that model?

Who says that no deck is closing the gap after Miracles? Aren't Lands or 12-Post classic control decks just to name two current one? Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return? We don't know as long as Miracles has only Lands.dec and AbruptDecay as enemies in the format

[iatee]

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

[rlesko]

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

Yes. The power level on the deck is so high that you can actually misstep a few times and be fine. Its more like T1 top T3 counterbalance with force of will backup T4 terminus T5 Jace GG.

[Lemnear]

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

No, its land-go until your cardadvantage/-quality engine of Top/Counterbalance/Terminus has grinded out the opponent

[iatee]

Funny, you would think, given that Miracles is *so* easy to pilot, that it would do even better than it does. Weird that only 7 people day 2'd with it at the last Legacy Open when everyone in the room was blessed with T1 top 9 rounds straight.

[Megadeus]

Because there's no threat of a free counterspell in an enchantment anymore. If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat. If they ban Top, no one plays control. If they ban CB, well then no one plays control and Miracles decks become Midrange Mentor.

So with CounterTop not being played, you don't have to worry about being locked out of a game if you're on combo and whiff on your first go-around. Delver will have Daze, which only works in early turns.

I know right. Counter Top was never played before Terminus existed.

[Crimhead]

But where is the rule that says we have to sacrifice the long term health of the format so a control deck can exist? That argument, I am sorry, I don't buy it. If Lands became that dominant arguing that the format needs Prison decks would not save it so I don't buy it here.

If WotC has rules for what this format needs to have, they are not keeping us informed.

The question is whether Miracles' high meta percentage is hurting the format more than having no such control deck would. You might think it is or it isn't, but it's wrong to dismiss the question altogether.

You've always had sympathy for people who want non-blue midrange decks to be a thing in Legacy; and for the banhammer to be used to fix the problem. Yet when somebody wants permission based (hard) control to be a thing in Legacy, and for the banned list to respect that, you show relative contempt?

If they ban Terminus, no one plays CounterTop because you just lose to any resolved threat.

You must be forgetting what Legacy was like before 2012. I will remind you that Counter-Top variants abounded.

[Fox]

Have you guys actually ever played with Miracles? Does everyone think it's just T1 Top T2 Counterbalance every game?

Here's the deal, you either have Abrupt Decay or you spend the entire game holding counterspells to hopefully stop CB from ever hitting the table. If you ever let CB stick, you never get to deploy another creature. You can call that "outplaying" others or "skill-intensive" but I think the more appropriate term is "bull." Don't get me wrong, you can throw away 3-4 cards to resolve a threat and start Terminus gambling...of course that's kinda the first point miracles will ever have to make an actual decision whether or not to use a real resource (i.e. card from hand). When CB/SDT combo is terrible is the only time I'd ever begin qualifying the deck as skill testing.

Just know that if they printed a 1-3 cmc card that said "Can't be countered. Remove all copies of Counterbalance from the battlefield, the stack, players' hands, and libraries from the game," it would see play.

[Dice_Box]

Speaking of aggro, where do Eldrazis fit in that model?

Not sure to be honest. I do know that Eldrazi was meant to be the herald of the apocalypse but that didn't happen, so I really have no idea what would happen with it.

The deck is not putting up the kind of numbers I thought it would over time so I really don't know.

[Crimhead]

Combo needs no help. Storm and S&T are in a good spot and fringe combo decks make a showing here and there.

According to mtgtop8, combo is 20% of the meta.

Who says that no deck is closing the gap after Miracles?

I was responding to a hypothetical meta suggested by Dice.

Aren't Lands or 12-Post classic control decks just to name two current one? Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return?

I explicitly said "permission based control".
Either way, I certainly wouldn't call Post a "classic control deck"!

Maybe UR Landstill or BUG Control with Toxic Deluge would return?

Maybe maybe not. Before Miracles there was no solidly competetive permission deck, and I see no reason to be optimistic about this.

[Lemnear]

According to mtgtop8, combo is 20% of the meta.

Which for whatever reason includes Elves and Dredge. The joke is that all those decks combined are 20% while Miracles alone is 18,3%

I explicitly said "permission based control".
Either way, I certainly wouldn't call Post a "classic control deck"!

For me "control" does NOT equal "runs blue and a shitload of counterspells" per definition and nor is "permission" synonymous to "counterspells". "Controlling" the board with stuff like Punishing Fire is totally fitting the description