I know that it's been mentioned as a brewing card in the past and it's a card I've rotated in and out of the deck myself a few times, but Oath of Nissa seems a bit more relevant now with the New Emrakul. Running multiples ensures that they hit the yard and they're effectively a Ancient Stirrings that doesn't dig as deep but grabs things of color (unfortunately this doesn't include artifacts).
I thought you GW guys would try riftstone portal with grapple? I guess you don’t need the mana fixing since it’s a very light splash.
Anyhow I went through flashback cards and didn’t find anything exciting except MPHave to go through retrace cards as well I guess? What else can we run with grapple that would be okay 2 dump into the yard or even be beneficial there like riftstone?
I played with wayfarer last night and he seems very solid. I’ll definitely keep him in for a while.
EDIT: Leshrac82 and myself had a slave-fest late last night. We each got to ulamog the other with extreme prejudice
I tried Riftstone Portal in Cg a while back. It's literally the best thing you can Crop Rotation away. But I often didn't find it reliable because Deathrite Shaman is a card.Originally Posted by MechTactical
I thought you GW guys would try riftstone portal with grapple? I guess you don’t need the mana fixing since it’s a very light splash.
Anyhow I went through flashback cards and didn’t find anything exciting except MP
I played with wayfarer last night and he seems very solid. I’ll definitely keep him in for a while.
EDIT: Leshrac82 and myself had a slave-fest late last night. We each got to ulamog the other with extreme prejudice
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DRS is a card I agree. However, now we have wail and grapple can still fetch it if targeted by DRS (don't know if that's worth it though).
My mono green list is shaping up well. Still unsure on the sb. And I think moment's peace being sb'd is purely a meta call. Moment's Peace's synergy with Grapple with the Past is a bit hard to pass up maindeck, but I think the deck has enough tricks atm to not need to hinge as heavily on the card as I used to.
Still need to test the burn matchup to determine if nature's claim is required. Also Eldrazi aggro swings heavily on chalice or not. I may need to include rec sages.
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
5 [R] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
3 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OGW] Warping Wall
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [EMN] Grapple with the Past
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Dismember
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
If you're not playing Ancient Stirrings, what about Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map? It does pretty much the same thing but gets around Chalice.
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I really do loathe sorcery speed, but I think if I were to do either, I would run ancient stirrings. Adds to the sorcery emrakul reduction, and is the necessary low mana to not get in the way of instant responses.
The answer to that comes to knowing why/how did repeal fell out of fashion? I'm still for it, thus the instant speed spot removal. I haven't tried EE in any context. Abrupt Decay is the 6th most top played card in the format, so there you go. Wasteland is the top land and is in 50% of all legacy decks. I once advocated for running it, to be more in grain with the format. I haven't given up this idea, but instead I'm finding room for ghost quarter to keep pithing needle relevant.
Krosan Wayfarer seems workable, maybe with Dark depths combo.
I personally think it's just that, fashion. Repeal is an awesome card in this deck and I'm not considering a cut for it. It's slightly worse now that Delver can't be cleared for just U, but U1 isn't so hard for this deck to get either. I play almost everything at instant speed, except for turn 1 moves, win cons, the occasional 1 CMC artifact, Trinket Mage, and casting/cracking EEs.
I suppose the big Delve zombie fish is annoying as a Repeal target, but OTOH after that thing gets repealed... it might as well be exiled.
I also have some doubt as to whether it's really worth running less-than-optimal cards just to make Mindrakul cheaper. This deck regularly hits those mana numbers even with no discount at all.
I've been trying E.E. in the main as a Trinket Mage target, and it's a little disappointing so far. Most of the problems it solves could also be solved by just cleanly ramping into an Eldrazi, so the subset of games where it's necessary as a speed bump for my opponent is a pretty small one. It's almost never dead, on the other hand, so asking it to win the game for me is probably unrealistic given how live it is.
i've been running EE for some time. Currently i'm considering it almost exclusively as efficient MB chalice hate paired with trinket - nothing more. Mr. Leshrarc has moxes and it makes more sense i guess. for yo average UG build i don't think its worth running. ive even lost games because i was fooling around with EE instead of going for a simpler line o'play...
In your opinion:
Is it better to pair cards that stall out the game (moment's peace, chasm, maze) with acceleration (exploration, wayfarer, map), or is it better to double down on one or the other? What generally works better, stalling or accelerating?
That's probably a meta call. In general my 2 cents say go for consistency and don't panic about bad match-ups / hate - be prepared 4 it but don't panic and don't dismember yo build 4 it - except if your meta requires it. There will always be hate 4 us in legacy and it remains to be seen if we'll ever make it 2 T1... Try do what we do best = play long enough to inevitably win and have fun
Has anyone tested 1-2 Exploration in mono-green Post?
And what about 1 Deathrite Shaman (in a Green Sun's Zenith list)?
I think the middle path works the best, running the most efficient cards of each class, from which we should be able to get a balanced deck that does what it's supposed to do. Of course it's always going to be a metagame call, and some of us have varying degrees of unpredictability to deal with. The size and expected composition of a tournament count for a lot with this particular deck in my opinion. I would be pretty nervous about taking it to a large event or a distant, unfamiliar tournament.
In the city where I live, knowing most of the local Legacy folks, their decks and habits, I'm very happy just taking the most humdrum, no-frills build of UG Cloudpost that I can come up with. 40% of the room will be Miracles and DnT, 40% will be Grixis Delver or BUG Delver (small chance of UR Delver if that player is feeling cheeky), slight chance of Nic Fit, and I'll definitely need to get through Food Chain along the way. There is one Sneaky Show player and one dude who switches between Lands and ANT. The guy who pushes Eldrazi rarely comes out these days. In a closed meta like this I think Cloudpost can really shine.
There's a real advantage of surprise a lot of the time out here, too. Folks don't know what I'm doing and they keep trying to get "control" of the game. I can just play some lands, put a Show on the stack, shrug when it gets countered, play a few more lands, crack a map for a Cavern, put a Titan on the stack, shrug when his trigger resolves, and it's all she wrote. I can tell by the look on the other player's face that they'd been preparing for the wrong battle.
So for me I think... 3 Needles and 3 Crop Rotations... 3 Maps... definitely 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top... 1 Candelabra and 2 Trinket Mage to find them... 4 Repeal (mostly used on Top actually) are all I need to get there, though I am considering going up to 4 Maps and cutting one of my 3 Warping Wails.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be fun to play mono green, and use Boseiju to power out GSZ in the same way I use Maps and Caverns to power out Titans now.
One idea I really liked from a few posts back was Tireless Tracker, but I'm not sure what he's supposed to be coming in for. Is it for free wins when the opponent boards out removal? Like Baneslayer Angel used to appear in creatureless Miracles lists?
EDIT: Ah ha! My reading skills serve me well!
DRS as a GSZ target is discussed around pages 20-40 of the thread, there are lists that try him in the SB, 1-of GSZ target, and 3-4 of MD. He's the hotness in the thread for awhile before he gets cast aside fairly suddenly. Apparently there were some problems with him turning on enemy removal, and difficulties with Crop Rotating away one's colored lands just prior to his unfortunate demise. Abrupt Decay was cited as an objection to him. He may be a totally legit choice that merits more testing, I never saw much more than a few Rock Lee lists adopt him at the time.
Exploration is brought up again and again throughout this thread. Rock Lee used to point people to the Developing thread where the card has been considered since the Dawn of the Age apparently. I can't recall ever seeing it in a successful list.
EE probably works better for me than for other lists because of my Mox Diamonds and the Deathrite, that makes it much easier to cast it for 3 and so it's a reliable maindeck answer to Blood Moon, among other things.
Boseiju: Thought about that in my build, i obviously can't play Cavern with my large number of different creature types, so Boseiju with GSZ could do that job. But as i don't play Expedition Maps, and Crop Rotation is rather risky against counterspells, i don't think i can have that often enough when i want it. Could work in a different build, but if you just want the GSZ for Titans, you are probably better off with Cavern.
Tireless Tracker works amazing in my deck (in almost every matchup, sometimes it's just a draw engine, sometimes it's a fast win condition), how you could include it in a more normal shell i don't know, but that card is just really strong.
DRS is good in my deck, again. It's not just acceleration and color fixing, it's also maindeck graveyard hate against combo decks relying on the graveyard - if i untap with Deathrite against Reanimator or Dredge, i usually just win. Similar against Storm, it usualy prevents the PiF kill, so they have to go for Ad Nauseam. All those decks have no maindecks answers to it. Against other decks that use the graveyard it can be at least annoying.
It dies to Abrupt Decay, that makes it worse against a lot of decks, but again, my deck has a lot of targets to Abrupt Decay, if they spend it on the Deathrite, something else might live. That might be a problem for decks without any other targets though.
There are some matchups where i board it out, and i wouldn't play more than 1 copy (with a number of GSZ to find it).
The problem with Exploration is that you probably won't use it later in the game. Could work with Courser, but Oracle does the job in just one card. Could also work with Tireless Tracker, but i decided to go for other options.
Overall these are a lot of ideas that work together in my build - and i can only repeat myself: The list is really not bad! You need some time to get used to it, and just taking it to your next event untested is probably a bad idea, but there are enough ways to test it online for free. Even if the list turns out to be not ideal for certain metas, there are ways to adjust that list.
In a way my deck is the build around for Tireless Tracker (even though the Gitrog Monster was the reason for the deck, Tracker always was much more important), just like other people are trying a build around for New Emrakul - but i think Tireless Tracker has much more potential than New Emrakul. That card is strong enough to build a deck around it, and i think it's stronger in a Cloudpost shell than in any other shell (and they still play it in other shells and are happy with it). I don't know if my deck is already the perfect shell, but i think it's a good start. Or you could start with a more normal shell and just add 2+ Trackers for additional copies of other cards, and just see how that works out.
Tracker looks awesome, I'm just trying to figure out in which matchups I ought to be using him.
Is he possibly a trump card against Delver decks that have boarded out their Lightning Bolts? I can imagine, if I were playing Delver, it would seem like a pretty good idea to board out those bolts and bring in either more robust countermagic, hand disruption, or both.
Re: EE, one of the problems with using this in a normal build is the gymnastics you have to do to get 3 counters on it. The normal UG deck can do this using Karakas or Bojuka Bog, but that's the sort of thing that needs to be set up well in advance. That much setup can usually cast a deadly creature, so I'm still on the fence about EE.
Sorcery-speed loathing aside, I think Mulch or Gather the Pack could also prove to be interesting. Pack digs deeper and stops you from accidentally dumping either Emrakul, but Mulch can also help you hit land drops, albeit with the caveat that your opponent knows what's coming. Both dodge Chalice of the Void on one as well.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I think you need a healthy mix of both. This is also one of the reasons I run a full playset of Candles; they do double duty as acceleration with Posts and stalling with Maze. Same with land tutors.
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I ran 3x Exploration in Colorless Green Post for years. It's an extremely high-variance card: incredible on turns 1-2, the worst card in your deck after that.
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I agree with this and I had the same objection to the card, but I can't help but wonder if it could somehow work in conjunction with Oracle of Mul Daya, Courser of Kruphix and Crucible of Worlds.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
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