Sorry to make 2 pages on this from my omni question since needed help with deck. With omni show...he plays SnT. He lays omni and I lay glimmer, bog or titan. He has priority since active player and no EBT but I have EBT. He can only play instants before my trigger or respond to my trigger on the stack. So he can play something from sneak attack since he has priority if free red mana. If not my trigger would be on stack next so priority passes to me. I then can leave it on the stack and cast grip on a target of my choice. Is this correct?
I was trying to make deck more consistent and with taking the maps out increasing my shuffling effects. May go to 5...then add in 4th trop or take the neph from SB and play MB. Maybe 1 too many...Once in all the games had a delta and no target...so down to 5 where it needs to be. My issues before were not getting the colored mana...its more important than colorless for deck. Gonna try it with 5, won't go any lower than that.Originally Posted by Skriger
I personally don't see how it's possible to get on without Maps, I find them essential for tutoring up exactly Cavern of Souls for Prime Time. It's got other uses, sure, but this is the one I can't live without.
Isn't this common sequence appealing?
T1: colored source, cast whatever 1 mana thing
T2: Cloudpost, pass with Crop Rotation up against Wasteland or Top mana or whatever
T3: Cloudpost, Map + crack it for Cavern of Souls
T4: uncounterable Titan
T5: Profit
It seems like every Tom, Dick, and Harry is trying to race me with something while holding up Force/Daze for my Titan... I'd often lose to this line if not for Cavern.
Also, sneaking a T1 Map under Counterbalance is almost GG vs Miracles. Outside of crazy Mentor nut draws, pretty the only times I've ever lost to Miracles is from flooding out. T1 Map means guaranteed Eye of Ugin, which means a win 95% of the time.
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Grapple was a 4 of in this list and honestly she loved it every time she cast it. She actually attacked into lands with Marit Lage which blocked killing emrakul. Wiped most of the board and used grapple in response to shuffle trigger to return emrakul and recast resulting in a concession. So far grapple has more than produced. The fact that it can also fizzle a surgical extraction on cloudpost or fizzle a deathrite activation can be relevant. There will be more testing this Saturday in the legacy side event at gp montreal. I will update on how it goes.
What about the part where they waste you on turn 3? Can't we just Crop for Cavern? Expedition map is good, but it's a crutch
Some Fear the Dead
I'm going to have to agree about keeping Map. Without a decent Land tutor, relying on only 4 Crops to carry your hand is not a good choice in my book. This deck relies too much on the utilitarian purposes of its' lands and removing the ability to pull such lands really hurts the deck more than anything. Especially in the U/G build. Mono G can run other pieces to digs up lands but not really the case with U/G builds which rely on brainstorm/fetch/Top routine to keep things in order.
A while back when we were playing with the Terminus idea in a Bant build (which still I enjoy). I was contemplating using Enlightened Tutor over Trinket Mage. This allowed me to top deck Platinum Emperion or leylines if I didn't get them in the draw and if I did not have Eye of Ugin to tutor. Throwing 2-4 Enlightened Tutors into a build feels interesting to me, gives you shuffling to re-organize on top of fetches works well with brainstorm and top, allows you to pull a lot of other pieces like Needle or a map to speed things along. Only issue is top decking and not to hand, unless you have a top on the board.
Here is the list i'm thinking of:
- LAND (25)
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Vesuva
2x Windswept Heath
- Artifact (10)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
4x Sensei's Divining Top
- Creature (7)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x World Breaker
- Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
2x Warping Wail
2x Enlightened Tutor
- Sorcery (6)
3x Show and Tell
3x Terminus
- Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Show and Tell
3x Flusterstorm
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
I have some thoughts on different sideboard options for my build:
1. I played 3 Leyline of Sanctity for a while now. They are great against Storm, probably the best Sideboard card for this matchup alone. Otherwise they are good against Burn and some fringe combo decks, but against the discard decks where i originally wanted them as additional defense i stopped boarding them in, because they are really bad topdecks. And against other more common combo decks they don't do anything. So i'm looking for alternatives that are decent against Storm and have some other applications.
Mindbreak Trap seems to have the same problem, good against Storm, but not that many other applications. I'd rather keep the Leylines.
Sphere of Resistance seems to have the most applications, against every combo deck and probably also against Delver. But i'm sceptical if it's good enough, i don't like tapping out even on Turn 2 against most combo decks. Still, it's probably a decent option.
Thoughtseize. I always dismissed that option with my very light black splash, but with some juggling around i could get to up to 10 untapped black mana sources. This is probably good against every combo deck, tapping out on Turn 1 is also fine. The only issue is the mana. I could play it with just 9 black untapped sources, but i think that's not enough. To get to 10 sources i have to cut the Veteran Explorer and replace one Forest with a 2nd Bayou (and i also have to play 3 Mox Diamonds, but i wasn't happy with just 2 anyway, to cut the third one was a mistake) - that could be fine, Explorer gets boarded out a lot, but it is a cost.
For now i'm trying out the Thoughtseize, so far the mana wasn't an issue, and i haven't really missed the Explorer either.
2. Against Delver, i'm playing with the idea try to go for mana denial a little more. Elephant Grass is ok, i tested that before, it has just the weakness that it's really bad against Chalice, and so pretty useless against Eldrazi. I'm playing white, so is Ghostly Prison a viable option? I'm trying this now, but i'm sceptical. Has anybody with a white splash ever tested that card?
Also, going with the mana denial, Choke is another option against Delver that's probably good against Miracles too.
I'm pretty sure if i wasn't playing on xmage, but on Magic Online instead, i would put at least 1 Choke in the board. On xmage the meta is different, and i don't think there are many other decks where i want Choke, but i still want to test it and see how good it really is against those decks. (Limited testing so far: Whenever i put it into play, it won me the game almost immediately.)
I think you shouldn't play ghostly prison, which is probably too little too late. For just a single mana more you have moat which does way more. The problem with hosing cards that drop after turn one/two is that it's most likely to be removed by thought knot seer. To me at least, eldrazi is a real beating...
About leyline, I just love it. It is a terrible top deck, but I feel it hoses several decks so much is worth it. Combined with surgical extraction, crop Rotation and bojuka Bog you really can fight quite a few Combo decks. I have included a third mox to, I kind of sort of acts like your brainstorm. It fixes hands by exchanging the lands you need late game for early game mana.
On another note, I learned that against decks that could possibly board in an ensnaring bridge you should never take out Ulamog... Got surprise wrecked in game 3 against burn...
I've been playing 4x Spheres for a while. It's a must-answer for so many combo decks. Tapping out T2 is usually fine because Sphere should prevent them from going off the next turn anyway. It's also especially good to drop off of S&T vs Omni. It's also very good at slowing down Elves and Burn to give you a chance to stabilize. It's not terrible vs Infect either, as it can prevent them from going too crazy with pump spells, although it rarely buys you more than an extra turn or two.
It's not actually that great vs most Delver (3Sphere is much better there). It's decent vs more Pyro-centric builds, but just a speed bump.
In Cg at least, it's indispensable to fight combo, as our only other tools are Wail and Crop. It seems like it'd be strong in Gw too, especially if you can curve with Enlightened Tutor for it on T1.
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Yes, i can see the problem with Ghostly Prison. It did some work yesterday, but other options are probably better.
I think Eldrazi is generally a solid matchup. Some draws are hard to beat, but most of the time i can stabilize at some point. Ensnaring Bridge is the best sideboard card for that matchup - the risk with Thought-Knot remains, but otherwise most lists don't have a very efficient answer. This is usually the best matchup for Veteran Explorer, so cutting it might be a problem here. In the last few days i encountered a lot more Eldrazi lists splashing white for Displacer. That card is a problem, usually i can stop their offense with a Knight or Tracker to block, that doesn't work against that - it also shuts down the option to win with Marit Lage and makes Titania a lot worse, you basically have to go for your own Eldrazi to beat this.
I am happy with Leyline in the matchups where it comes in, but there are a lot of combo decks where it's just useless, that's why i'm thinking about something that's good in more matchups. It does nothing against Show&Tell, Reanimator, Infect, Elves and many more combo decks. Elves is a very good matchup imo, for Reanimator we have enough tools too, but against Show&Tell and Infect i wouldn't mind some more sideboard cards.
Right now i wouldn't recommend anything else over Leyline, but i still want to see how good the other options are, in the matchups where Leyline does nothing and in the matchups where Leyline is good.
The 3rd Mox seems to be necessary - i played it for the most time, and cutting it was clearly a mistake.
Against Burn i board in RecSage and Krosan Grip, that can deal with a Bridge and otherwise there are some other targets (Eidolon, Sulfuric Vortex). I'm not sure if Ulamog would be the best option here, you probably don't get the time to go for that.
Well, i don't play Enlightened Tutor, so i don't have that option.
The biggest problem i have with Sphere is that they probably expect something like that. With Leyline, i got an immediate concession out of Storm a few times, because they didn't board in their answers. But every combo deck has answers to Sphere because they need answers to Chalice, and from my experience they always board it in.
If Thoughtseize doesn't do enough or the mana issues are too big, i will probably give Sphere a try.
Yes. Also if he activates sneak attack, you then get priority again before your trigger resolves. Not since the times of dig through time do omni players respond to their own instants in omni anymore, so at best they get one instant off.
If funds were not a consideration (they are... I'm just daydreaming a little), how many Candelabras would mono-green run?
@cwcomposer
Well the perfect Number is 3;)
Candelabra is a lot more powerfull in Monogreen but you don't want 4 in the build. I heard some people like 4 but i think it's too much. 3 is not too much and not to less..
If you draw them mutliple in some situation they can be pretty bad.
But yeah you can test them of course.
(considering T1: colored source, cast whatever 1 mana thing
T2: Cloudpost, pass with Crop Rotation up against Wasteland or Top mana or whatever
T3: Cloudpost, Map + crack it for Cavern of Souls
T4: uncounterable Titan
T5: Profit)
Against Wasteland I'd leave open the colored source at all times, assuming I have Crop Rotation, and plan to drop the Titan on T5 instead of T4. We all know this is a combo-control deck, it's important to play around and through the opponent's moves and possibilities. Forgive me for saying so, but I think you're denigrating a strong card and key player in the deck for a very long time as a "crutch" without even responding to the reasoning behind playing this card, which is the following.
1. A whole lot of Legacy plays Force of Will, even more than Wasteland.
2. Ramp decks tend to lose to counterspells when the thing they're ramping into can get countered.
3. While Cloudpost is an incredibly compact and efficient ramp strategy, the best in the game, that's still one way to characterize it.
4. Reliably making Primeval Titan uncounterable is excellent because resolving this key spell tends to win the game.
5. Expedition Map is the most efficient way to make Prime Time uncounterable (because it doesn't cost a land drop).
For me, this line of uncounterable Prime Times is very attractive, but Expedition Map offers huge gobs of flexibility even on top of this. It's the 2nd most efficient way to play Glacial Chasm (after Prime Time search trigger). It finds Karakas. It can get Cloudposts if that's what I really need, or Vesuvas to copy ETB trigger on Bog, or my Tabernacle. If I have mana for days but I'm hurting for a win con, it's a gamewinning topdeck.
I needed a 5 item chart and a paragraph to explain the awesome things Expedition Map does. I think that if this card didn't exist and were spoiled today, we would all go completely gaga and waste 5 pages of the thread posting memes about how perfect it was. I also think calling cards "crutches" is, in general, disingenuous. The questions are always what effect(s) a card brings to the deck, whether the deck needs that number of the effect(s), and whether it does the effect(s) efficiently enough. Obviously Post wants land tutors, so (1) is satisfied. Many people play with 7-8 of these, including those with the best past results, so (2) is satisfied. You might take issue with the efficiency of the Map, that is (3), but if we're only down to this aspect of a card I don't think it's possible to reach the judgment that the card is a crutch.
I agree with all the benefits you listed, but you forgot the two glaring weaknesses. You buckle even harder to chalice @ 1, and null rod further destroys you. Null rod is run by Grixis, Bug, and Eldrazi Aggro. And Chalice @ 1 also played by Eldrazi aggro amongst other decks.
Since playing the 0-map build recently, I've found myself against null rod and barely flinching, due to show and tell x4 making unwinnable games easy.
Hi,
I would very much like to playtest this. Could someone point me to a current stock / consensual list for this deck ?
Thanks
That's a tough question :). Basically there's a bunch of "stock lists", all of which are highly configurable (which is one of the large attractions to this deck). The deck has several common configurations. The most consistent one is U/G which features blue for Brainstorm, Show and Tell, some utility and great sideboarding. Mono G often plays Green Sun's Zenith + some bullets for diversity and there's the "CG version" (Colorless Green) which is heavily invested in Candelabra's and colorless spells to ramp. Currently I'm playing the list of Leshrac82, a more Toolbox/twelve post hybrid with a lot of versatility.
Basically all versions have merrit. Look for lists here in this forum or on mtgtop8.com.
Welcome :)
Chalice and abrupt decay are real and played in a lot of decks...main reason I took them out. Null rod is bad and I hope they SB them in for more dead cards in their deck...I agree with the 5 turns listed by the previous person. That would be a great hand and work great. But for those land drops to be in hand and nothing to hinder your cards for 3 turns...I found it to not be very high statistically. Also, I don't like not having cards to hinder the other person, why I play 4 repeals, 2 EE, and crops even for instant speed lands while abilities on the stack. I never said maps are bad...I'm just saying I felt they are weaker currently in our meta. Also, I really like EE MB. Chalice has almost doubled in price from a year ago...they are heavily played. Why I wanted less '1' in my deck and a way to deal with them. Only card that can be targeted by it is candle for me and only 2 in the deck. SDT doesn't mind it at all. Very low chance to blow it up, and if I am it's because I don't have multiple posts out and not a huge help.
Maps are great...if you run them you are running a more ramp version of the deck and nothing wrong with that. It plays different and has been used for awhile. My build as rock sees is a more combo control build that is totally built around Show n tells. Maps are great, just a different strategy with the deck. I just feel with the current meta they can be targeted easily. Not right or wrong saying you must or must not play them. All depends on how you want to play the deck...
I've goldfished my mono-green list a ton and I've noticed that the deck has the widest margin of difference between goldfishing and playing against an actual opponent. Nothing ever plays out in reality the way it does sitting by yourself at the kitchen table.
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