D&T had a fairly reasonable showing at the LEgacy CLassic this weekend; no Imperial lists...but one of the Top8 lists featured 3 THC.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...imore&state=MD
Going to GenCon this week and I may try playing her in a monowhite shell and an imperial shell (although more un recruitable targets doesn't sound like what I want in that deck).
That was me with the 3 THC. I'll probably write a report when I get the opportunity later tonight and if not then then tomorrow. Went 6-0-1, was 1st seed, lost in T8 to poor draws.
ListOriginally Posted by Marungo
I do like this list alot. The MD numbers seem very well-balanced and doesn't completely forsake Crusader and Serra Avenger for THC. Even the SB looks pretty good.
Were you guys happy with the new Thalia in the MD? A buddy of mine made the 1st place in our locals last weekend with 2 copies in the MD but he sided her out alot but when she resolved she was absurd powerful!
My only Problem with her ist the cc3 which is very slow. I think Maverick is a better home for her with DS & Zenith into Arbor T1.
Currently playingEldrazi
I don't think there's any question that she's a scarier card in decks that can t2 her, maybe even one of the best cards in those decks . The question is more 'How good are the decks that can t2 her?'
As per DnT - which already is a t1 deck in its various incarnations - when I was behind or there was a board stall she felt like...not really what you want out of a 3 drop. No evasion, no value, just a 3/2 first strike. And t3 on the draw, you will very often find yourself behind.
Thanks. I'll be sure to share my thoughts on the deck and THC in the report
Death & Taxes is a perfect fit for the new Thalia, my list is very similar to Marungo's (just some lands off) and my testing is very promising (I started with 2 copies too). Thalia, Heretic Cathar is really good for closing out games after trading some creature and land. Without THC it was more likely that your opponent could crawl back after a topdecked Tarmogoyf, land etc. With THC it's so much harder for your opponent to draw out of equal or worse board positions, which I really like in a deck with no carddraw or library manipulation at all.
Maverick may be the overall better home for THC deckbuilding-wise, but Death & Taxes is the better deck in the current metagame (or just in general).
Formerly known as Bierbaron.
Well, you have to take some cards out to make room for this one, of course. I took out my beaters. They have been at various times Brimaz, Serra Avenger, and Mirran Crusader. Those guys all stack up kinda well against a Tarmogoyf. All better than Big Thalia. I do not care to lose to Tarmos. But there is a lot more to the picture. Opponents are made less able to do the other things their deck does to get them to the point of D+T staring down a Tarmo with no resources to avoid it.
I do not view the cost of 3 to be much of a down side, honestly. If it cost 2, it would probably be a 2/1. We simply could not reasonably replace offense with a card like that (not to mention how soft the deck would be to Golgari Charm and friends). We would be forced to decide what disruption to cut, and that is much harder.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
After 1 1/2 year of MtG haitus; back read the forum and now playtesting and liking this build with Thalia 2.0 & Displacer
*SB plan copied from Yamashita Taiki's 7/02/2016 1st place list tweaking -1 Eidolon of Rhetoric for +1 Ethersworn Canonist
Creatures
4 mother of runes
4 thalia 1.0
4 flickerwisp
4 phyrexian revoker
4 stoneforge mystic
2 serra avenger
2 thalia 2.0
2 eldrazi displacer
1 mangara
Spells
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 SoFI
1 umezawa's jitte
Lands
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
3 karakas
1 flagstone of tokair
8 plains
SB
2 warping wail
2 ethersworn canonist
2 cataclysm
2 RiP
1 surgical extraction
1 ratchet bomb
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
2 council's judgement
1 manriki gusari
At first it was 4 Thalia 2.0 and -2 Avenger, -2 Displacer, +1 Mangara, +1 Karakas and didn't like multiple Thalia 2.0 in hand stuck all the time. Liking the Warping Wail against the mirror, hitting Thalia 1.0, mom, Revokers, Flickerwisp and against Mentor Miracles countering a crucial Terminus, Council's Judgement or going for broke EotA.
With Thalia 2.0 & Displacer in play is just bonkers against Reality Smasher.
Tried THC again last night vs Eldrazi/Reanimator/Grixis Delver/Lands but she only came into play as a relevant creature vs Grixis Delver. It slowed down his Abrupt Decay (which I knew about from a Delver) and was a good clock but ultimately got hit by the Decay (whereas Mirran Crusader wouldn't be).
I put Kor Skyfisher back in the deck and proceeded to win multiple games off it. Vs Eldrazi Recruitered for Kor Skyfisher to bounce a Fiend Hunter to eat an Endbringer and in that same attrition-y Delver game I tutored for it to block a Delver. 4 Paths in the sideboard worked out pretty well, definitely won a game vs Delver off that, though my Eldrazi opponent was awkwardly playing a Wastes. I think if I'm going to keep up the 8 STP strategy I'll need to toss in more anti-Chalice stuff too, like a Ratchet Bomb.
Can anyone think of any not-Relic Warder 2 drops in W or R that destroy/blink/mess up a Chalice?
Time for our good friend Manic Vandal to come to play. He's a human to boot.
I wish Viashino Heretic was a bit more playable, that card is sick.
Edit: Misread your question. Manic Vandal is still the most playable shatter dude though.
Not much that would be ideal, I don't think:
Capashen Unicorn (Substantial mana investment, needs to tap and sac itself, but can hit Enchantments)
Goblin Tinkerer (lower mana investment, can live through killing a chalice but still needs to tap)
Hammer Mage (needs to tap, could kill your own artifacts and have to discard a card)
Hearth Kami (worse than Reckless Reveler)
Reckless Reveler (less mana, but sacrifices itself)
Torch Fiend (Same card as Reckless Reveler)
Utility wise, Torch Fiend/Reckless reveler can hit anything, but if the aim is direct at Chalice, Tinkerer sticks around.
All of them are rather bad though.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Problem with Manic Vandal is it's a must. It might ultimately be the best option since it's not actually a terrible card.
Here's something else I found, probably too niche:
Tournament Report of my 5th place finish at the SCG Baltimore Classic:
DECKLIST
I’ll be honest, almost didn’t make it to this event, but a last minute ride offered by a friend and fellow Death and Taxes pilot got me there. I was super tired and was playing my deck untested with new Thalia so I joked with friends I was hoping for the ‘ol 0-3 drop get food. Turned out better than expected.
R1: vs. Shardless BUG (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent keeps his hand and opens on Underground Sea into Deathrite Shaman. I have Vial, but my opponent has no fetches and just follows up with a swamp. I take advantage of the stumble as any good Death and Taxes player does and begin playing and vial’ing out threats. Mom came out, Stoneforge into Batterskull followed, Thalia was backbreaking, and Crusader was just cruel. The final turn he resolved an Ancestral with one mana up after paying the Thalia tax and just died.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Rest in Peace, 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Out: 4 Flickerwisp, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Mother of Runes
G2: Mom is good and all, but postboard Shardless has a lot of random -1/-1 effects so I felt 4 was too many. Game 2 was more of the same mana troubles for my opponent. He had out Underground Sea and Swamp and the Underground Sea got wasted while Vial pumped out threats like Thalia, Stoneforge, and Crusader. Swamp, swamp, Bayou is not a successful manabase either, but he followed up with wasteland Toxic Deluge going to 2 and sweeping my board. Unfortunately for him, I followed up with Land, Rest in Peace, Gideon to sweep up the game
(1-0)
R2: vs. Maverick (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent has some good cards like Deathrite and Knight of the Reliquary but it stuck on 2 lands after a wasteland. Vial does work again as Mirran Crusader and friends provide too much of an offense to overcome after the Knight gets Plowed and my opponent has no follow up threats.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Flickerwisp
G2: Yeah Revoker on Knight doesn’t seem all that great. Game 2 saw mana flood for my opponent and an appearance from THC. She died almost immediately, but she made a brief appearance. Regardless, Stoneforge Mystic, Rest in Peace, and Crusader all did work and my opponent found himself with a lot of lands and not a lot of action. He did answer things here and there but Mother of Runes came down and he had no sweepers to answer a hefty board.
(2-0)
R3: vs. Shardless BUG (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent was very nice. Most of my opponents were but I felt the need to highlight him because he was a particularly cheerful fellow. Regardless game one saw Vial take over. A main phase Thalia, followed by a vialed in Stoneforge at endstep spelled bad news for my opponent. He had little offense or defense and was just brainstorming a bunch. Eventually Flickerwisp moved a guy out of the way and I attacked for a bunch then played THC. He Shardless’d into Ancestral, dead on board, then scooped.
Sideboard: Same as before
G2: Oh man Gideon was MVP this game by a country mile. I kept a real slow hand with answers but not a lot of action, although a Thalia did get a chance to hold a Jitte briefly. A turn one thoughtseize took my Crusader though and from there I fell behind. He had Goyf, Strix, Tarpit, and Deathrite. That’s a lot to handle. But Gideon came down and saved the day, providing a consistent chump blocker for Goyf until I found a plow while Port kept his Tarpit at bay until I found a wasteland. He kept attacking me with Strix trying to end the game, realizing I was pulling away. Eventually though he ran out of Instants and Sorceries that could keep a Goyf big and I was playing threats while Gideon provided blockers. Stoneforge got a Batterskull, and Rest in Peace did a number on him. Eventually he had to Deluge killing all creatures but leaving me a Gideon, who does a solid job of making an army without any help. Gideon eventually picked up the Jitte and a Knight picked up a Batterskull and it was GG.
(3-0)
R4: vs. Death and Taxes (W) (2-1)
Man oh man. You know I complained I hadn’t played the DnT mirror in months on the car ride up since I think it’s a really interesting matchup. After this match, I don’t think I could take playing it too many times.
G1: I knew what he was playing since I sat next to him Round one. I kept a hand with Vial and Revoker while he had 2 Vials. I have the play though so I have a turn where I play a Thalia into Revoker on Vial, and the game really isn’t too close after that. He was all in on the vials and had mana trouble.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Path to Exile, 1 Containment Priest
Out: (on the Draw) 4 Thalia, 1 THC, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Cavern of Souls
(on the play) Same except land goes back in and a Path went out
G2: I misplayed. I overvalued Jitte in this game from my end. I had Revoker out on Vial again and had a turn where I attacked with an equipped Revoker into into death with my only follow up being THC. He vialed in Avenger, and his Jitte took over the game. My opponent played well and recognized the value of his vials and used Flickerwisp to stay on top.
G3: This was the most stressful and difficult game I’ve played in a while. I had 2 moms in my opener, so even though one got plowed, the other stuck. I then get a Flickerwisp out as the only flier as well as Revoker on Jitte and feel like I might run away with things, getting my opponent to 9. This is where things got rough. My opponent had cobbled his own board while I was beating, including Mom, Revoker on Vial and the Avenger he played. The board stalled. He attacked a few times with Avenger and found another mom while I was too afraid he had plow to move. Eventually I got down a crusader and my own Jitte and started Mom protected my Wisp to block and we were at a dead lock.
The turning point came after he added a Brimaz to the board. He attacked with Brimaz and Avenger and I had to find a way to win this game. I tanked for a while realizing if I could just remove that Revoker and my Revoker, my Crusader could pick up a Jitte, get protection, and swing for lethal. I decided now was the time to make a move. Wisp blocked Avenger, Crusader blocked Brimaz, my Revoker blocked Cat token. He protected the Avenger and was surprised I decided to protect Crusader. He decided not to use the second mom, and played a third post combat. It was really now or never. I went to plow the Revoker, and he calmly protected it. When I untapped and equipped, he went, “Oh.” And I knew I was about to take over.
New mom blocked Crusader, and now I had to play the odds. The one way this could get taken away was if he got a Jitte on his Avenger. I double ported him on upkeep, and hope he didn’t draw a land. He didn’t. It was a vial which he played. Next turn I untapped, gave protection, pumped, and sung for lethal.
(4-0)
R5: vs. BUG Delver (W) (2-0)
G1: This guy made top 8 as well. He had a slow start game one with Deathrite but no threat until he played a mongoose. At this point he had just wasted me and played a trop so I thought this was RUG Delver. Once he fetched an Underground Sea, I was confused but happy overall. I had a vial, mom, THC came down as did Stoneforge. THC did work keeping his guys tapped and forcing bad chump blocks and eventually got a Jitte. By the time Mongoose got Threshold I had added a batterskull and he was done.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Rest in Peace, 2 Path to Exile
Out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 THC,1 Sword of Fire and Ice
G2: Pretty happy that he was playing Goose. Made R.I.P. all the better. Didn’t matter actually since, even though I kept a land light hand and got wasted twice, I drew lands and my opponent had a bunch of answers but no pressure. I had a hand full of threats and eventually the answers ran out. I had Crusader, Flickerwisp, Thalia, and eventually overran him. Goose is good. Not very good against a Crusader.
(5-0)
R6: vs. Bant Deathblade (W) (2-1)
G1: My opponent wants to draw but isn’t sure if we can and not have to play next round. I was there mostly just to play magic so I said let’s play. Game one my opponent plays just a little sloppy and I’m able to jump on it and take advantage. THC is MVP here. She keeps True Names down their first turn out as well as mana dorks and cause mana troubles for my opponent. I even waste his Flooded Strand. Eventually THC with Jitte and SoFI, a vial on 3, and a Karaks overwhelm my opponent. Tough game one.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Council’s Judgment
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 1 Swords to Plowshares.
G2: Uh… Anyone know how to board vs Bant Deathblade? I didn’t. Regardless game 2 isn’t good for me. I try desperately to get Jitte online but can’t. Game goes real long and I don’t have a lot of recollection of it, but I remember a pair of True Name’s came down and spelled game over for me.
G3: Man this was a tough match overall. Again I don’t recall too much about this, but I do remember The turning point was an end step Vial on 2 activation which forced him to plow my Stoneforge to play around Thalia. Unfortunately for him it was another Stoneforge, and I found Jitte after getting SoFI the first time. I played and equipped and he never found a True Name so all his guys met the same fate and Jitte Controlled the game until it got Grip’d. Then SoFI and THC overwhelmed him
(6-0)
Round 7: ID
(6-0-1)
Top 8: vs. Bant Stoneblade (L) (0-2)
G1: Game one he found a True Name and got Jitte on it before I could get mine online thanks to Noble Hierarch and it totally took over the game.
G2: I drew atrocious. I drew 10 lands and 4 guys all game and although I had needle on his 3 deathrites, they literally killed me. I was really frustrated cause he dazed my T2 Stoneforge which I played without Cavern cause who keeps Force or Daze in vs. Death and Taxes?! Later he Forces my THC pitching True Name. All the disrespect. Didn’t help he had plow and Path for my other guys, but I just hope I never have to Council’s Judgment a Deathrite ever again.
(6-1-1)
Not really that upset to be honest, plus I now have $300 in store credit that I have to figure out how to use.
Final Thoughts: Thalia, Heretic Cathar is the real deal in my opinion. Yeah I played all fair decks but we aren’t exactly great vs. most combo decks despite what many of our long time players will have you believe. She totally warped the game states she got stuck on or just ate a removal spell which I can’t be too unhappy with either. I boarded one out a lot because she is best on the play, but I wouldn’t go down one since you want to maximize those chances of hitting her T3 on the play. Overall she was great, and even though I feel Crusader is better, I feel like she is so much better early game that the 3rd copy is worth it. Still haven’t figured out how good she is in the mirror though since she can be Karakas’d.
As for the list as a whole it felt great. Did I get a little lucky here and there? Yeah. That’s magic. I also got unlucky in Top 8. That’s magic too. I probably left out some Wastelands and Port activations here and there that mattered but slipped my mind, please don’t hold it against me. Gideon earned his keep with those matches vs. Shardless BUG, but while he earned his spot, one card has certainly lost there’s.
Look I know it’s good vs. Reanimator, Dredge, the mirror, etc. but Containment Priest has overstayed its welcome. I’m tired of playing with a 14 card sideboard. I don’t see any of the aforementioned decks around me (literally haven’t played them in a year aside from the mirror and haven’t played elves in 6 months) and it’s debatable how good it is in the mirror since sometimes you have vial and it’s just dead. I understand everyone has a different metagame and I don’t blame you at all for playing Priest, but I think I’m done with Priest, at least for now. With Sneak and Show Moving towards a more Omni-hybrid deck I think I’ll find a different card to fill the spot. Maybe Seal of Cleansing.
Regardless had a total blast, felt I played really well, was really happy with the list, and totally recommend Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Is this her best deck to be in? Possibly not. Does that mean we shouldn’t play her? Absolutely not.
Last edited by Marungo; 08-02-2016 at 12:42 PM.
Congrats on the t8.
I think the key thing to remember when evaluating the card is not just that you didn't play against combo, you played against a lot of midrange with greedy mana. No doubt THC is good there, but those decks don't make up the majority of the legacy meta. And as you noted - Crusader would have been as much of a beast on board (if not more) vs all the BUG decks + Maverick too.
As per sideboarding, vs Maverick you should take out your small Thalias (they play Karakas, have a lot of mana, are a creature based deck...) and definitely keep Revokers and maybe even bring in Needles. There are lot of targets beyond Knight - equipment that will just win the game, SfMs, mana dorks, their own Moms. etc. Also I'm guessing you have a typo and didn't side in RiPs vs DnT and brought in Needles.
I just found this article from June.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sen-2016-06-12
Olle Rade starts with this:
I have heard Thomas say before that he got it from Andreas when asked where the deck came from. But now he has moved on to claiming that Andreas designed the deck for this event, and that is flatly false. You have Olle Rade praising the originality of it all. And Thomas has again perpetuated the fairy tale with this response when he knows perfectly well that it is untrue.In a time when people usually pick their decks based on what they have seen someone else win with, or from the internet, it's refreshing to hear stories of a deck genesis with more depth to them. When I asked Thomas Enevoldsen how he started playing the mono-white deck going by the name of "Death and Taxes," the answer was more of a fairytale.
"In Denmark, back in 2012, a guy put up a Mox Pearl as prize for anyone who could build a deck with certain restrictions and still win a Legacy tournament. It had to be mono-colored, to have a certain curve, and there was a list of cards you couldn't use. My friend Andreas Petersen designed a white deck and ended up winning the Mox Pearl, and that shell evolved into the Death and Taxes deck that I have been playing ever since," he said.
To make this entirely clear, Andreas Petersen got that deck off the net. He got it from me. He did not design it. I did. I tested it against my friend Travis at my kitchen table. I named it. When I had the first working version I posted it on MtgSalvation in 2006. In near total obscurity I lead this deck's formation in the face of a community that largely panned it because it used cards like Flickerwisp, Plains, Mangara of Corondor, and Serra Avenger. Along with people who came and went over the years, I adapted the deck as new cards came along. Years of work figuring out everything not to do had already been figured out by 2012.
Thomas, you know this. Anyone who has been a member of the online Legacy community long enough knows this. There is a written history online. Every post is time stamped. When Olle Rade focused an article on the mothership about how original your creation is, that would have been a good time for you to come clean. Now you are even more trapped in this lie.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Upon thinking about it you're probably right about the Maverick matchup, but thankfully the matchup is pretty good so I avoided punishment. You were also correct about the typo.
I do however think you're off about your current evaluation of the format which I feel I mostly midrange, delver, and whatever you wanna classify Eldrazi as. As for THC sure Crusader is/was good against those decks but she singlehandedly beat Bant Deathblade for me and won G1 against DnT. It's not like it was bad versus all the midrange decks I listed either. Was Crusader better? Yes. Substantially better? I don't think so. Was Thalia better than the cards I would have had there? (Brimaz, Crusader #3, Revoker #4) Definitely the Brimaz and 4th Revoker.
Eldrazi's an aggro deck. It's more comparable to Delver decks when looking at THC. She can be good if they have a slow start, but she also can eat a 1 mana spell for a huge tempo loss / be too slow to tax them meaningfully / be smaller than their dudes + unable to race a Delver/TNN/Goyf.
I wasn't suggesting that it was bad vs the midrange decks - I was suggesting that that's where it's going to be most consistently good since those are decks where your taxing effects are still very relevant turns 4-6. Anyway, I've played THC against a lot of aggro/tempo decks and exactly 0 blue midrange decks at this point. All I can say is I haven't found her consistently good vs aggro/tempo and those decks do make up a lot of the format.
PS Finn, I don't think anyone actually questions your history (which as you say, is mostly timestamped and online anyway), my guess is Enevoldsen genuinely wasn't aware that his friend got his deck from the internet.
Fair. Seems like we will have to agree to disagree on this point since I found her pretty good in some play test games I did and the one time I played vs delver
@Iatee
I saw you musing about trying a third Path in the sideboard. Did you ever do any testing with that? I'm considering running the third to improve Eldrazi and Infect.
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