[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Colin]

I'm curious if other people are finding that Prelate is awesome and that recruiter is mostly a sideboard card in Mono W, and that Prelate is a 1 of and Recruiter of the Guard is a direct replacement for Imperial in RW?

I've been finding time and again that any time I draw recruiter in Mono W I'd rather have (almost) any action card in the deck instead and that unless vial is on-board it's not so great? Against miracles, threatening recruiter->wisp->wisp every turn has been awesome, but otherwise I'd rather have another lock piece almost always. Prelate reminds me so much of Thalia at this point, 50/50 that she ever gets to attack until equipped, but you want her on the board ALL the time. In the games where prelate is not so great, it's awesome to have such an easy side-out.

In Imperial being able to threaten Prelate locking off removal then Magus to effectively end games and again, endless flickerwisps is just amazing, but I'm having trouble finding space for more than 1 prelate in the main.

[Luca Grease]

I'm honestly flabbergasted by the amount of people dissing recruiter ITT. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I can't help but seriously question the judgement of anyone who considers it a marginal addition at best. ANYONE who has played this deck competitively for a while knows that one of its greatest weaknesses was the lack of card selection/search in the mid/late game, which led to very frustrating losses ALL THE TIME, and was, most likely, the reason so few pros have taken up the deck consistently until now. Recruiter brilliantly shores up that weakness while providing card advantage and being a human on top of it. Seriously, there should be no need to explain why an uncounterable Demonic Tutor on legs (most likely fetching an uncounterable silver bullet) is pure gold.

Also, playing this in the side is madness. It is the definition of a maindeck card.

[iatee]

I think it's going to take people time to adjust to playing Mono-W as a slower deck.

Imperial and Mono-W play fairly differently and Mono-W with 4 Recruiters is going to play a lot closer to Imperial, even if you're not including a Magus in your 75 (which I think is a mistake.) So I think the deck needs to be designed that way - it needs to have a huge toolbox especially post-board to deal with any situation, it needs to have powerful late game plays - though as far as that goes, I still don't know if there's ever going to be a late game bomb comparable to Pia/Kiran outside of red.

[RobNC]

What's the ideal split with the new cards? 3 recruiter and 1 prelate?

[Colin]

I'm honestly flabbergasted by the amount of people dissing recruiter ITT. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I can't help but seriously question the judgement of anyone who considers it a marginal addition at best. ANYONE who has played this deck competitively for a while knows that one of its greatest weaknesses was the lack of card selection/search in the mid/late game, which led to very frustrating losses ALL THE TIME, and was, most likely, the reason so few pros have taken up the deck consistently until now. Recruiter brilliantly shores up that weakness while providing card advantage and being a human on top of it. Seriously, there should be no need to explain why an uncounterable Demonic Tutor on legs (most likely fetching an uncounterable silver bullet) is pure gold.

Also, playing this in the side is madness. It is the definition of a maindeck card.

I'm not spewing gospel here, I'm asking?

I've only got about 30 pre-board games and 40 post board games in with a mono white version and in this I've only played maybe 10 games at most before switching up the 60. The thing that has made me happiest so far is running 3 SFM + 1 recruiter with 1 or 2 recruiters replacing 1 or 2 gideons in the board

Regarding the bold text: I cant agree less. This is not a definitively mainboard card. It is the divergence of the Deck. Like a choose your own adventure. If you maindeck primarily recruiter you are now playing a deck that is fundamentally different from the play of non-recruiter.

I think it's going to take people time to adjust to playing Mono-W as a slower deck.

Imperial and Mono-W play fairly differently and Mono-W with 4 Recruiters is going to play a lot closer to Imperial, even if you're not including a Magus in your 75 (which I think is a mistake.) So I think the deck needs to be designed that way - it needs to have a huge toolbox especially post-board to deal with any situation, it needs to have powerful late game plays - though as far as that goes, I still don't know if there's ever going to be a late game bomb comparable to Pia/Kiran outside of red.

Do you truly think that Mono white will be better as a slow deck?

That's closer to the heart of my questions.

I've been running mono white for ~4 years now and I don't think the deck needs a toolbox main to be "more successful". I'm thinking that it's a different deck with a equal opportunity for success based on metagame shift.

I agree with you on the magus for sure. the autowin is too strong to ignore.

I've only had ~200 games since I've picked up Imperial, but my playtesting group has learned to despise P+K more than anything.

I've found that it's really the sideboard red cards that make the toolbox viable for me. Sudden demise, cunning sparkmage, P+K (main and side) I'm often underwhelmed with imperial recruiter game 1, other than the mid-game card selection/advantage.

Edit after re-reading iatee: No bomb! that's what I've been experiencing. Mono white was always about layering + a bomb or 2 (brimaz, serra, mirran) and I've found that the turn of delay in getting online with the actual threats is crucial. With layered hatebears I almost always find that the opponent is having to decide between hate and threats for removal, when you're recruitering you often need a turn to play recruiter, get hate or threat, then a turn to deploy. Also threat/hate density goes down. So suddenly your light on threat, lighter on hate and opponents removal gets much better because they don't care is recruiter sits and spins.


I'm also looking for more input on Prelate? I've had so many wins with prelate on 1 that ended with my opponent's hand full of uncastable cards. I'm wondering what others are seeing

I'm not trying to define the value of the cards, I'm asking for community experience to supplement my own. I don't want to formulate an opinion based in personal experience only

[iatee]

I think Prelate is nuts, and the best argument against playing as many Recruiters is possible is 'Shouldn't we be playing as many Prelates as possible?'

I think a slower Mono-W DnT is viable and ultimately better than Avengertempo.dec, but the right decklist has to be found, and there might be some fairly big changes before it works consistently. Speed is nice, but consistency is ultimately what makes decks T1. It is true that a lot of the most powerful tutor targets in Imperial were red, and a lot of the most relevant tutor targets are in fact SB cards. I think finding a late game that's more threatening than just 'hook up Batterskull to a creature' is gonna be pretty important. Maybe it's just chaining Flickerwisps...maybe they'll print a white Pia/Kiran in the next set...

FWIW for Mono-W decks with a bunch of Recruiters and Prelates but no Magus in the 75 - Eldrazi's gonna turn into a pretty terrible matchup. Imperial always has the 'I win' button to make up for playing a bunch of 1/1s and 2/2s for 3, but Prelate's a pretty terrible replacement for Magus here. OTOH, if you don't consistently wreck Miracles with this deck + a bunch of Caverns, you're doing something wrong.

Anyway people should just experiment and play anything and everything for now. Nobody really knows what's good.

[zebhillard]

Anyway people should just experiment and play anything and everything for now. Nobody really knows what's good.

I'm either giving Recruiter Taxes or Punishing Jund a run at our weekly Legacy tomorrow night.
-
Right now my Recruiter-based 75 is...

23 Land
10 Spells (4 Swords/4 Vial/2 Equipment [No Batterskull in the main)


4: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3: Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Mom, Revoker, SFM
2: Thalia, Displacer
1: Mangara, Canonist, Sanctum Prelate, Intrepid Hero

SB:
2: Containment Priest, Rest in Peace
1: Canonist, Relic-Warder, Veteran Armorer, Hokori, Council's Judgment, Holy Light, Sanctum Prelate, Graf Cage, Batterskull, Manriki-Gusari, Eight and a half tails

[colo]

I played a half-asses attempt at an Imperial->of the Guard port of my most recent decklist yesterday, and won 3-0 versus mono-B jank, Punishing Fire Rock, and Lodestone Staxx. The value that eot Recruiter from Vial into Stonecloaker, then going on to casting Stonecloaker to exile a Punishing Fire and bouncing Recruiter, and then hitting for 3 the next turn is positively bonkers.

I love the new cards. 8)

[Luca Grease]

Sure, the 4 recruiter version will give up some tempo wins due to a slower midgame, but those were few and far between compared to the huge amount of (very frustrating) losses the deck would rack up because of its inconsistency, or drawing your multiple Serra Avengers against, say, Omni-Tell, or your 4 Revokers against UR prowess. Intuitively, and in the games I've played so far, the 4-recruiter version is just much more consistent and overall powerful, giving us easily accessible, backbreaking plays against tons of decks against which we would otherwise struggle and pray for the right topdeck. Of course, it's not just a matter of slapping 4 recruiters in and calling it a day, the whole decklist needs to be redisigned, keeping (imo) the cornerstone 4-ofs of Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mystic to retain our core early game elements and setting up the stage for a much more flexible and powerful late game toolbox/engine.

As for prelate, I can add my voice to the choir of praise: despite my initial skepticism, the card is too good to play only 1 in the maindeck, tutors or not. While it is so good that it would not be blasphemy to cut a tutor for it, chances are we should rather cut a Flickerwisp (especially since we should be running 4 Cavern of Souls) or some other non essential 3-drop for it. In the initial analysis when the card was spoiled, I remember multiple people labeling this card as "bad" against infect. Well, I disagree. It might not shut off 80% of their deck like in other matchups, but jam it on 3 and it'll often win you the game. Bonus points for blanking their Krosan Grips post-board.

Pia and Kiran: I never played Imperial Taxes, but what did this card really shine against besides Miracles? It looks very sketchy against anything having access to Wasteland, considering the deck only played 1 Plateau (or should have). It seems to me that in most matchups, either Prelate is just as good (and less clunky), or there's something backbreaking we can search up from the board anyway.

Here's my current list for reference and criticism:

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Banisher Priest
1 Batterskull
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Recruiter of the Guard
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff


A few thoughts:

- As partial as I am to the card, I think that Mangara's time is done. Everytime I searched for it, I felt like some other card might have done the job just as well and much quicker. If you want to remove a creature, just search up Banisher Priest. If you want to cockblock Miracles or Shardless, just search up Prelate instead. If you want to grind someone out, start chaining Flickerwisps. If an Ensnaring Bridge or Glacial Chasm is preventing you to attack for lethal, flicker it at their eot. And so on and so forth... Post board, it gets even worse when you could just search up Magus and instantly nuke their whole manabase. Also, Mangara will clog up your vial on 3 forever, forcing you to choose between continuing to apply the lock or deploying other powerful pieces. Other creatures will just get vialed in and free the lane.

- Since Magus seems entirely doable with this manabase so far, I've taken up iatee's suggestion of Orzhov Pontiff, which should prove an absolute beast in the mirror and against Maverick, Infect, Elves, and anything running TNN. Props to you for mentioning it, I wonder if we're missing anything else like that...

- The 3rd Revoker in the SB was mostly an auto-pilot decision as I shaved 2 off the maindeck. It should probably be another tutor target, but I suppose there are worse ways to use up a SB slot until I figure out which.

- This list sucks it to Humility big time, but I think that's an acceptable risk at least until the metagame adjusts. I suppose you could always try to fight it by casting Prelate on 4 (which is not the most unreasonable thing against U/W control decks) if you're super scared. For the most part, the threat of Thalia/Wasteland and Rishadan Port, in combination with the even slower finishing potential of Humility/Elspeth Miracle lists should keep us safe, or so I hope.

EDIT: Stonecloacker: I like this card and I wanted to give it another go when recruiter was spoiled, but Prelate quickly put that nonsense to rest. It is, for the most part, too slow against Dredge, Reanimator, and other super fast combo decks, so it only really shines against Punishing Fire, Loam, and Perhaps Snapcaster Mage. Prelate just mops all of that up. Post board, we have access to Faerie Macabre and RiP, so yea... Not needed.

[Warden]

I'm surprised people aren't running Gideon in the board. Just picked him up and feel he's so strong against Miracles. He also breaks parity against mirror and peudo mirror matchups. Prelate is nice, but I would hesitate cutting Gideon entirely.

@Recruiter lists: I would run Magus of the Moon main (1 main, 1 in side) because you can literally win on the spot with it. Potential turn 4 wins/complete mana lockdowns are too much upside.

[walked]

Sure, the 4 recruiter version will give up some tempo wins due to a slower midgame, but those were few and far between compared to the huge amount of (very frustrating) losses the deck would rack up because of its inconsistency, or drawing your multiple Serra Avengers against, say, Omni-Tell, or your 4 Revokers against UR prowess. Intuitively, and in the games I've played so far, the 4-recruiter version is just much more consistent and overall powerful, giving us easily accessible, backbreaking plays against tons of decks against which we would otherwise struggle and pray for the right topdeck. Of course, it's not just a matter of slapping 4 recruiters in and calling it a day, the whole decklist needs to be redisigned, keeping (imo) the cornerstone 4-ofs of Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mystic to retain our core early game elements and setting up the stage for a much more flexible and powerful late game toolbox/engine.

As for prelate, I can add my voice to the choir of praise: despite my initial skepticism, the card is too good to play only 1 in the maindeck, tutors or not. While it is so good that it would not be blasphemy to cut a tutor for it, chances are we should rather cut a Flickerwisp (especially since we should be running 4 Cavern of Souls) or some other non essential 3-drop for it. In the initial analysis when the card was spoiled, I remember multiple people labeling this card as "bad" against infect. Well, I disagree. It might not shut off 80% of their deck like in other matchups, but jam it on 3 and it'll often win you the game. Bonus points for blanking their Krosan Grips post-board.

Pia and Kiran: I never played Imperial Taxes, but what did this card really shine against besides Miracles? It looks very sketchy against anything having access to Wasteland, considering the deck only played 1 Plateau (or should have). It seems to me that in most matchups, either Prelate is just as good (and less clunky), or there's something backbreaking we can search up from the board anyway.

Here's my current list for reference and criticism:

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Banisher Priest
1 Batterskull
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Recruiter of the Guard
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff


A few thoughts:

- As partial as I am to the card, I think that Mangara's time is done. Everytime I searched for it, I felt like some other card might have done the job just as well and much quicker. If you want to remove a creature, just search up Banisher Priest. If you want to cockblock Miracles or Shardless, just search up Prelate instead. If you want to grind someone out, start chaining Flickerwisps. If an Ensnaring Bridge or Glacial Chasm is preventing you to attack for lethal, flicker it at their eot. And so on and so forth... Post board, it gets even worse when you could just search up Magus and instantly nuke their whole manabase. Also, Mangara will clog up your vial on 3 forever, forcing you to choose between continuing to apply the lock or deploying other powerful pieces. Other creatures will just get vialed in and free the lane.

- Since Magus seems entirely doable with this manabase so far, I've taken up iatee's suggestion of Orzhov Pontiff, which should prove an absolute beast in the mirror and against Maverick, Infect, Elves, and anything running TNN. Props to you for mentioning it, I wonder if we're missing anything else like that...

- The 3rd Revoker in the SB was mostly an auto-pilot decision as I shaved 2 off the maindeck. It should probably be another tutor target, but I suppose there are worse ways to use up a SB slot until I figure out which.

- This list sucks it to Humility big time, but I think that's an acceptable risk at least until the metagame adjusts. I suppose you could always try to fight it by casting Prelate on 4 (which is not the most unreasonable thing against U/W control decks) if you're super scared. For the most part, the threat of Thalia/Wasteland and Rishadan Port, in combination with the even slower finishing potential of Humility/Elspeth Miracle lists should keep us safe, or so I hope.

EDIT: Stonecloacker: I like this card and I wanted to give it another go when recruiter was spoiled, but Prelate quickly put that nonsense to rest. It is, for the most part, too slow against Dredge, Reanimator, and other super fast combo decks, so it only really shines against Punishing Fire, Loam, and Perhaps Snapcaster Mage. Prelate just mops all of that up. Post board, we have access to Faerie Macabre and RiP, so yea... Not needed.

So I'm very much on the same plane of thought as you. One item I'm debating is trying to find a spot for a Leonin Relic-Warder mainboard, given the toolbox nature and having spent a couple of days getting shut down by Chalice before I could get my vial out. Not sure what I'd pull out, but I'm really digging the Recruiter and Prelate in testing.

[Luca Grease]

So I'm very much on the same plane of thought as you. One item I'm debating is trying to find a spot for a Leonin Relic-Warder mainboard, given the toolbox nature and having spent a couple of days getting shut down by Chalice before I could get my vial out. Not sure what I'd pull out, but I'm really digging the Recruiter and Prelate in testing.

If chalices stranding vials in your hand are your problem, I don't think Leonin is the solution. You tutor for it on turn 3 and cast it on turn 4, by then vial has lost a lot of its value, not to mention you can just tutor Flickerwisp to blank the chalice instead. Honestly, chalice is not a card I'm particularly worried about, as it is very hit-or-miss against us on the play and absolutely horrible on the draw. A lot of players actually side it out when playing against DnT, and rightly so.

That being said, Leonin in the main is actually a pretty defensible choice. I guess it would have to take the place of a Revoker (using my list for reference), which I think it's a more flexible maindeck card overall. But if you are looking to increase the toolbox element at the expense of some redundancy (there are multiple MUs where revoker has 2+ valuable targets), I can envision opting for a 1/1 split. The only thing that worries me about leonin is that it costs WW without being a human. Perhaps you should start naming Cleric with your caverns...

[walked]

If chalices stranding vials in your hand are your problem, I don't think Leonin is the solution. You tutor for it on turn 3 and cast it on turn 4, by then vial has lost a lot of its value, not to mention you can just tutor Flickerwisp to blank the chalice instead. Honestly, chalice is not a card I'm particularly worried about, as it is very hit-or-miss against us on the play and absolutely horrible on the draw. A lot of players actually side it out when playing against DnT, and rightly so.

That being said, Leonin in the main is actually a pretty defensible choice. I guess it would have to take the place of a Revoker (using my list for reference), which I think it's a more flexible maindeck card overall. But if you are looking to increase the toolbox element at the expense of some redundancy (there are multiple MUs where revoker has 2+ valuable targets), I can envision opting for a 1/1 split. The only thing that worries me about leonin is that it costs WW without being a human. Perhaps you should start naming Cleric with your caverns...

That's similar to where I was leaning to slot it in; the Revoker is valuable, but in games that I can get two out and active, I'm already doing well enough that it's probably not what's going to swing the game. Leaving me with redundancy as the driving reason to have two (again, generalizing).

I'm sure its just recent memory; but I've had two matches this past week where a chalice T1 cost me the match (they took G1 on the play; G2 I got; and G3 they threw Chalice again, on the play). You're probably right that's not worthy of considerable concern, but it's certainly fresh in my memory.

I think given the toolbox appraoch though, I'm definitely of the mind that the Relic-Warder has a spot. There's a ton of non-activated permanents that cause considerable pain.

And on the cavern's front - if we're running 4x, if it's really necessary to choose a different creature type for the Relic-Warder, it's not a huge sting.

[iatee]

Chalice is annoying both because it makes your keeps harder and because it shuts of STP. But it's also high variance vs us - against many of our slower fair SfM keeps, an opponent drawing into a bunch of Chalices is a good way for them to lose, and it loses a lot of power after t1 (unlike vs. blue decks.)

I agree that Relic Warder in the main is pretty viable. It's been among the most important tutor targets for me over time in Imperial. Issues with Cavern have come up over time, but I think it's just the price you pay and should be less of an issue now that Recruiters can be cast without a red source.

[colo]

Yes, I can only recommend one-pf Relic-Warders if your meta features nasties like Sylvan Library, Lodestone Golem, or opposing equipment. It's no Qasali Pridemage, but it's the next best thing.

[iatee]

It's pretty busted in the mirror.

[tarmogoat]

After some testing this is where I'm at:

4x Æther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mother of Runes

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3x Flickerwisp
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
7x Plains

2x Path to Exile
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Rest in Peace
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Banisher Priest
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Council's Judgment
1x Cataclysm
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

I want to find room to add 1 Orzhov Pontiff as Luca posts, but I currently don't own one anyway. I was also thinking about Goblin Sharpshooter, it's not the same, but it's activated, repeatable and can be vialed in or cast through Cavern. Although you have to reset the cavern with a Flickerwisp afterwards, which is not the best, but can be game ending against Elves and mirror/maverick and it also doesn't suck against Mentor. Maybe sharpshooter needs fetches and Plateau.
I am also wondering if we should insta-add 1 Veteran Armorer to our SB, as the hate will come in the form of Dread of Night most likely (and to break the Pontiff play in the mirror).

[Finn]

Got my first testing done today.

Flickerwisp and Recruiter in the same deck is savage.

Prelate and Recruiter in the same deck flatly requires Banisher Priest.

[mrjumbo03]

Got my first testing done today.

Flickerwisp and Recruiter in the same deck is savage.

Prelate and Recruiter in the same deck flatly requires Banisher Priest.

Can you clarify the bolded part? Does this mean a lack of beef in the deck, hence requiring additional removal MD?

[walked]

Chalice is annoying both because it makes your keeps harder and because it shuts of STP. But it's also high variance vs us - against many of our slower fair SfM keeps, an opponent drawing into a bunch of Chalices is a good way for them to lose, and it loses a lot of power after t1 (unlike vs. blue decks.)

I agree that Relic Warder in the main is pretty viable. It's been among the most important tutor targets for me over time in Imperial. Issues with Cavern have come up over time, but I think it's just the price you pay and should be less of an issue now that Recruiters can be cast without a red source.

So the relic-warder mb has tested very well this evening. I think that's the list I'm going to run for this tournament coming up in two weekends time