[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

Bellower is The Danger Of Cool Things. When you get to resolve NO, better get something that ends the game without fail. Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm or Ruric Thar, that's about it. If you need to resort to Bellower, something is going horribly wrong. Also, a 6/5 vanilla is rather unimpressive in the face of Reality Smasher/Gurmag Angler/2 power worth of creatures + a Lightning Bolt. Is that really what you want to invest your NO (and a creature) on?

To be honest, deckbuilding becomes rather boring w/ NO. All you need to ask yourself is "Does this creature kill my opponent more quickly/easily than the creature I'm running right now does?". If not, you don't play the new creature. If so, switch out the old creatures for the new ones. Rince, repeat.

@10 fetch - this is a good thing. It allows you to make an incredibly stable manabase and also does work for SDT (if you run it).

But if you want to run NO, why not just play Elves? That deck does it better.

[helvetios]

Bellower is The Danger Of Cool Things. When you get to resolve NO, better get something that ends the game without fail. Progenitus, Worldspine Wurm or Ruric Thar, that's about it. If you need to resort to Bellower, something is going horribly wrong. Also, a 6/5 vanilla is rather unimpressive in the face of Reality Smasher/Gurmag Angler/2 power worth of creatures + a Lightning Bolt. Is that really what you want to invest your NO (and a creature) on?

I can't imagine that bellower is in there as a NO target, unless you have progenitus in your hand without a way to discard it, and nothing better to do than NO into bellower. I think it's mostly there to be found with GSZ and make value.

[Echelon]

I can't imagine that bellower is in there as a NO target, unless you have progenitus in your hand without a way to discard it, and nothing better to do than NO into bellower. I think it's mostly there to be found with GSZ and make value.

Yes, b/c 7 mana (or 8 if you want to play through Daze) is something that happens often. And it's not that for a mana less you could get Sigarda (or Spiritmonger/The Gitrog Monster if you want to stick to BG) to win you the game or anything. Or, you know, just GSZ for X = 3 into Eternal Witness so you actually have mana left to cast the card you got with it right then and there. But that's just me.

Besides, if you can (safely) GSZ for Bellower, unlikely as that may be, why not just GSZ for Ruric Thar instead and take the game on the spot rather than durdle about? Bellower is just nonsensical.

[Corgimancer]

Played in my local Wednesday night legacy event with abzhan nic fit. went 2-2. beat burn, and a mono-red blood moon deck and lost to eldrazi and oops-all-spells

my general list

creatures:
1 dryad arbor
4 vet
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal wit
1 tireless tracker
1 courser of cruphix (tryin' it out, kinda meh on it.)
4 siege rhino
1 sigarda
1 thragtusk
1 armada wurm

instants/sorceries:
4 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 swords
1 maelstrom pulse

enc/art:
3 deed
1 sylvan
2 top

planeswalkers:
1 5 mana garruk
1 kaya (also trying it out. seems..okay? gonna give it a few more goes. only saw it once and they scooped on me resolving it lol)

sb:
choke x3
damnation x3
surgical x3
thrun x1
thoughtseize x3
rec sage x1
1x kitchen finks

land:
normal mix, nothin' spicy.

game 1: burn - 2-0.
Opponent on game 1 killed my vet so they could turn 2 a sulfuric vortex, for which I had a decay in hand. I then drew multiple rhinos and they scooped. game two went much the same - super unexciting matchup with a full playset of rhinos in the deck and not having to worry about losing lands.

game 2: eldrazi 0-2
game 1 I was on the draw and first turn I had the choice of either therapying him (he went turn 1 eldrazi temple so I knew right away what he was on) or playing DRS - I figured the ramp of my plan was more important so I went DRS but then he TKS my therapy, and then also proceeded to have two smashers in hand and drew a third. I got a little color screwed and missed a line where I could have played deed and then held up 5 mana to stop at least a round of beats, so that game wasn't entirely unwinnable but it still feels like a tough matchup for me. any advice on making it better would be great. Game 2 was wholly unexciting as I mull'd to 6 and ended up with 2 lands, 3 drop 4 drop 4 drop 5 drop in my opener and while it was still terrible I figured if I peel right it could work out but I proceed to draw nothing but more 4/5 and lose. proooobably shoulda mulliganed that looking back at it knowing how quick those games play out.

game 3 - mono-red-screw-jank 2-1
game 1 I had a swamp in hand so I played it to cast cabal therapy naming bolt, see magus of the moon, stormbreath, the red-bob 3 mana card? and chrome mox. I play a fetch 2nd turn and get basic forest and while he tries his best to mount any kind of offense I have 4 basics in play and cast rhinos ftw. game 2 I kept a greedy 3 fetchland hand and the turn 1 moon gets me, but then turn 3 in the draw again Im able to fetch up a forest, play therapy + vet, and get there with more rhinos beats. turns out a plan entirely going after our lands isn't super great.

game 4 - oops-all-spells 0-2
game 1 I know what he's on immediately as a chancellor of the annex is revealed. I play a gsz for zero just to get it out the way and assume holding up swords was a better wait than trying to get something considering how fast it can be. it takes him a few turns and I manage to play a scooze but no 2nd green mana. same turn he goes off :( I'm holding up the W still but he has a probe in hand into flashing back underworld cerebus and sacking it to flashbacked therapy and I scoop. I side in 3 thoughtseize and 3 surgicals. game 2 was much quicker. im on the play - I turn 1 cabal for balastrad spy. hit! I see the rest of his hand is chrome mox, lotus, elvish spirit guide, summoners pack lab maniac. I know it'll take him at least another turn or two to assemble anything so I pass without fear (no surgicals in hand though.) he proceeds to top deck another spy and goes off. oh well! can't win 'em all eh?

so the md and sb are kinda off from my liking as this was a friend's deck I had to borrow (don't own most of these cards myself unfortunately) I know I definitely want to try and get a gaddock teeg for the board, but I was thinking maybe some number of containment priests might be a good one as well? I really like the 'gotcha' aspect of the flash on 'em despite them not being tutorable, and the only real 'combo' decks in my 'local' meta are things like dredge, reanimator and the previously stated oops decks. overall I still really like the abzhan version of fit (Just cuz sigarda for the fare decks.) and most of the time im okay enough to beat most midrange stuff, eldrazi I think is the one matchup I wish was better (Unsure there's a way to make combo a favorable matchup...just sb cards to make it not COMPLETELY unwinnable lol.)

[Neo900]

I always liked Stoneforge Mystic in Abzan builds. It's no big deal when stoneforge mystic dies since nicfit can easily cast the batterskull.
I am waiting for my own Kaya as well. I liked her since the spoiler. But also Liliana of the Veil is such a strong Planeswalker.
I am not a fan of damnation. it destroys our creatures as well, no matter how big they are.
I would play Toxic Deluge. It allows us to control what we want to kill.

[square_two]

Bellower is The Danger Of Cool Things.

...

But if you want to run NO, why not just play Elves? That deck does it better.

I understand the dislike of Bellower.

But just because NO is seen in Elves doesn't mean other decks can't use it adequately. Nic Fit has both hand disruption and board control in plenty which are huge plusses, and is also more immune to board wipes. We can more easily handle the negatives that are leading even Elves players away from NO and into the "Chaos" builds.

With NO there is always a plan B (or A, whatever). Elves just has to spew its creatures on the board and hope that a fast and often blind NO works, backup plan of little elf beats and Symbiote/Visionary draw power. NO RUG has backup exalted Goyf/Clique beats and potential counters to protect NO. Don't see why Nic Fit can't explore NO when it has board control and Tracker beats or Meren recursion/longevity to backup its NO plan.

[helvetios]

Yes, b/c 7 mana (or 8 if you want to play through Daze) is something that happens often. And it's not that for a mana less you could get Sigarda (or Spiritmonger/The Gitrog Monster if you want to stick to BG) to win you the game or anything. Or, you know, just GSZ for X = 3 into Eternal Witness so you actually have mana left to cast the card you got with it right then and there. But that's just me.

Besides, if you can (safely) GSZ for Bellower, unlikely as that may be, why not just GSZ for Ruric Thar instead and take the game on the spot rather than durdle about? Bellower is just nonsensical.

I never said that bellower is a good GSZ-target, i just assumed one wouldn't use NO to search for a bellower. I totally agree that there are better targets at a lower cmc.

[Echelon]

I understand the dislike of Bellower.

But just because NO is seen in Elves doesn't mean other decks can't use it adequately. Nic Fit has both hand disruption and board control in plenty which are huge plusses, and is also more immune to board wipes. We can more easily handle the negatives that are leading even Elves players away from NO and into the "Chaos" builds.

With NO there is always a plan B (or A, whatever). Elves just has to spew its creatures on the board and hope that a fast and often blind NO works, backup plan of little elf beats and Symbiote/Visionary draw power. NO RUG has backup exalted Goyf/Clique beats and potential counters to protect NO. Don't see why Nic Fit can't explore NO when it has board control and Tracker beats or Meren recursion/longevity to backup its NO plan.

Yes, b/c NO RUG is something that has had some major successes over the years and still sees play today. I'll tell you why you don't have to bother with NO - by the time you're in a place where you can safely resolve that NO, you could just as well win via Siege Rhino/Sigarda. Or loop an Eternal Witness + PtE w/ Phyrexian Tower & Meren, etc. So why bother? You don't need it. It just weakens the deck for some off chance you get to do something cool. Eldritch Evolution would be a better fit for this deck, since it's a mana cheaper and doesn't force you to get a green creature. Just turn your 2/3 into a 4/5 and use that to win. The new 4 mana, 5/4 flyer guy might even be a good card for such a build. Combine it w/ a SFM and have fun with it.

I never said that bellower is a good GSZ-target, i just assumed one wouldn't use NO to search for a bellower. I totally agree that there are better targets at a lower cmc.

Good to see we agree!

[jmlima]

... Combine it w/ a SFM and have fun with it. ...

Remember: Newbie here.

Does SFM work that well in this deck, without the protection that the Stoneforge shells have? (I always thought not).

Or is it just an equipment tutor, never mind protecting it?

[Navsi]

You don't need to protect Stoneforge, since we run plenty of other creatures and have the mana to cast the equipment directly. If your opponent uses removal on SFM that's fine, since they 2-for-1 themselves as you still have an equipment available.

It's a pretty good Abzan build, since Rhinos (with Trample) and Sigarda (with Flying) work pretty well with equipment. It also helps to make our Veteran Explorer into slightly more relevant lategame draws if they have swords to pick up.

[jmlima]

You don't need to protect Stoneforge, since we run plenty of other creatures and have the mana to cast the equipment directly. If your opponent uses removal on SFM that's fine, since they 2-for-1 themselves as you still have an equipment available.

It's a pretty good Abzan build, since Rhinos (with Trample) and Sigarda (with Flying) work pretty well with equipment. It also helps to make our Veteran Explorer into slightly more relevant lategame draws if they have swords to pick up.

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand, but isn't it better to just go with Enlightened Tutor and get the artifact at instant speed? (If SFM could be tutored with GSZ I could see the point)

[Echelon]

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage, SFM is CA. Tutor doesn't replace itself (it just puts a card on top of your library), SFM does (since it puts a card directly in your hand).

I'm not a fan of SFM in this deck, by the way, but SFM -> Jitte into Eldritch Evolution -> 5/4 flyer w/ a Jitte does sound kinda kinky. Although the Timmy in me screams Grafted Wargear. 8/6 flyer FTW.

[Navsi]

Enlightened Tutor:

- Less Mana
- Instant Speed

Stoneforge:
- Doesn't cost you your next draw step
- Provides you with a body to equip your equipment to
- Makes your equipment uncounterable until removed
- Forces your opponent to 2-for-1 themselves


The big issue is the draw step. SFM 2-for-1s your opponent a lot of the time. Enlightened Tutor is a 0-for-1 since you spend a card and don't actually get any more cards than before, you just fix your next draw.

[jmlima]

Roger that, point taken.

[Brael]

Remember: Newbie here.

Does SFM work that well in this deck, without the protection that the Stoneforge shells have? (I always thought not).

Or is it just an equipment tutor, never mind protecting it?

SFM works fine, I'm not a fan of the card myself but lots of people run it to good success. You don't need to protect the SFM.

[square_two]

Yes, b/c NO RUG is something that has had some major successes over the years and still sees play today. I'll tell you why you don't have to bother with NO - by the time you're in a place where you can safely resolve that NO, you could just as well win via Siege Rhino/Sigarda. Or loop an Eternal Witness + PtE w/ Phyrexian Tower & Meren, etc. So why bother? You don't need it. It just weakens the deck for some off chance you get to do something cool. Eldritch Evolution would be a better fit for this deck, since it's a mana cheaper and doesn't force you to get a green creature. Just turn your 2/3 into a 4/5 and use that to win. The new 4 mana, 5/4 flyer guy might even be a good card for such a build. Combine it w/ a SFM and have fun with it.

The reason to bother with NO is because, if it resolves, it will likely win you the game. It's not that hard to be in a place to cast a 4cmc spell while you have a cheap green creature in play...do you really mean to argue that NO is harder to attempt to resolve than your example of Sigarda which will require 1-2 more mana? I mean, Nic Fit is built to both ramp and also tutor a certain cheap green creature into play...

The point is moot anyway. The best argument against NO is simply a deck called Miracles...I started a league with this deck last night and first match Miracles reminds me why I stopped playing Legacy online. (Also why I haven't played Nic Fit in so long, opting to play decks that have a better chance against it). Or I'm just a terrible player

[Echelon]

Miracles seemed too obvious to me to point out, lol.

[rubblekill]

Opinions on the new green artifact mythic? Seems at least worth testing, I could be wrong

Verdurous Gearhulk - 3GG
Artifact Creature - Construct - Mythic
Trample
When Verdurous Gearhulk enters the battlefield, distribute four +1/+1 counters among any number of target creatures you control.
4/4

[Jain_Mor]

It's the 5 drop you'd want against combo.. But you don't really want 5 drops against combo, and rhino is quicker?
Could help a bit against eldrazi or make lingering souls more of a thing..

[Bobmans]

Wolfir Silverheart brings more power to the table for 5 mana.