Originally Posted by sampi
Thanks!
Sorry about the dagger Phil. Tight match as always. And Billy Ray is just unloseable.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Good shit Parcher! Congratulations bro.
Do want to know though. How significant was FOW? Would you say you did in fact need it to win multiple games and matches throughout the day? Or was the dredge engine doing its thing for the most part?
I can't say I needed it. I can say it performed well. I did not, for the most part, face that many match-ups where it shines most. No Storm, Reanimator, DnT, Stompy/MUD, etc. Decks that can either out-combo me, or rely on hate as their primary interaction. I did play the mirror, but never drew a Force. I had one game against both Blade and Miracles where I led with discarding only one dredger, they both Extracted it in response to a draw, and I Forced their Surgical. I can't say I NEEDED Force there since I can still win. And to be honest, Unmask would have done just as well. But it basically locked the win right then and there. Forcing a 3Sphere from Lands won another game. He opened with Chalice at zero, which I allowed since it was irrelevant vs my hand. Then dropped 3 Sphere, which would have stopped my Bthrough. More importantly, it tapped him out, denying Crop if he had it(he didn't). I mean, it would have shut off Crop as well, but I didn't have another land. That's the primary advantage of Force vs anything but Extraction. Making your opponent waste a turn they can't afford vs me to do nothing. And they have to keep hands that bank on that hate landing since, even if they know about Force, what are they going to do? Not play their hate? It allows Dredge to play a tempo game, while remaining a combo deck. With the card I lose always being far less important, sometimes completely irrelevant, than what Force or Unmask stops. And Amalgam both facilitates Force, helps against Surgical, and feeds Unmask as well. Which is what I supplement Therapy with against Surgical. 4 Serenity was overkill, but that was my fault. After the past two weeks playing in the Aggro Loam and infinite Elzrazi variation infested Baltimore area, I forgot how Blue heavy SCG is.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Well done, Parcher. This FoW list is inspiring me to dust off my dredge cards.
Would you (or anybody) mind briefly outlining some sideboard strategies?
Ive never felt fully confident with my dredge sideboarding skill. Too much can dilute us terribly, too little can leave us cold to hate.
Do you ever side out dredgers? How about LEDs? Obviously they are a nonbo with FoW, but are they explosive enough to keep in?
What's the absolute top number of sideboard anti hate we should bring in?
6 cards? 7?
I can't give a SB guide this time. I'm still figuring it all out myself. There are a few things I'm pretty set on. Force does not at all come in against Tempo decks. That's what Unmask and Fstorm are for. If they start to run permanent based hate again, then the SB will need to be revised. Generally, Force comes in vs non Tempo, meaning mostly Delver, decks with non-Leyline permanent based hate. If they don't run countermagic I generally just board in the Forces for 1 each Pimp, Ichorid, Firestorm and City. Your goal is to fill the board as quickly as possible vs these decks. And Force is just an insurance policy in case you can't before they land hate. If it's something more like Miracles, I'll board in both the Forces and 1 Unmask, removing LEDs since while they do have counters, not many are for turn one. Also, it's a hedge since some run Surgical and others run RiP. I think that's the only deck I bring both in. Main thing to remember is there's no downside to running Force with LED if they don't have counters or instant speed hate. You always know what you're going to get. To be honest, Force is still fine if they start running Surgical. That's a mistake to begin with, running Surgical in a deck with no other stack interactions. But I'd just swap out LED in that case. Since if Bthrough resolves, you don't care if like DnT has one Surgical you can't now counter.
EDIT: Also, I'd be lying if I didn't mention how irked I am that I posted all this over two months ago, and no one had any belief or even interest until they see my lists on TCdecks or the like. I'd have thought I've earned the benefit of the doubt by now.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Cheers, that's good food for thought.
As for lack of belief, it's more lack of knowledge on my part. Real life has prevented me from paying too much attention to Legacy for several months. I tune back in to see Dredge with FoW smashing face, only natural that interest gets piqued.
Besides, you have documented evidence to back up your I told you So's.
Best feeling there is!
LOL - I was paying attention.Well done Parcher, good work!
Yeah I've found that boarding in Force isn't the ducks nuts for everything.
I've taken a break from Dredge lately, but having run the Force-side 3 times (see previous), I wanted to test it out against everything meaningful for testings sake, so I wasn't trying to be focussed. Next time I'll focus less on testing and more on winning.
I think you're right about not using Force for tempo like Grixis, using FOW for Miracles and for any deck not running counter. There's obviously exceptions.
I would suggest running Force against any deck running white for RiP.
Given Eldrazi usually run LotV, Force is little help there, and Claims usually aren't much help through Chalice either - I really hate that deck.
I've run the blue side in Manaless dredge for quite a while, so whilst I have some experience there about what/how/when in that context, using Force here is fairly different as we can actually mulligan - shock horror! - so there has been quite a few slow hands I've kept simply because I've had a force & blue ready to fire against the impending RiP/Cage whatever.
What about you Parcher?
Have you been keeping slow, but playable hands with an active Force, that you would normally shuffle back in?
RE: the blue side (SPOILER ALERT)
Ceremonious Rejection. Stops Chalice, Eldrazi, Vials, Charbelcher, Grafdigger's Cage just to name a few.
I'll probably do some testing with this card, but I'm looking at this card as *a little narrow*.
I've not seen any of the other spoiled cards being useful for us yet.
I agree that Force is the best card vs RiP. And vs decks running it, or Priest, I will keep slower hands with Force. The extra draw step or two often feeds you the draw spell while waiting on their hate. Conversely, you can freely go all in on those decks without Force since their only way to punish you is a single draw step. Aggro Loam and Eldrazi with Leyline are a bitch, hence the 4 Serenity, which ignores Chalice or multiples. Also, with big Thalia, Recruiter, and Prelate, a lot or the Eldrazi are now splashing Wnite. Which means RiP. Which means we have a much easier time with Force.LOL - I was paying attention.
Yeah I've found that boarding in Force isn't the ducks nuts for everything.
I've taken a break from Dredge lately, but having run the Force-side 3 times (see previous), I wanted to test it out against everything meaningful for testings sake, so I wasn't trying to be focussed. Next time I'll focus less on testing and more on winning.
I think you're right about not using Force for tempo like Grixis, using FOW for Miracles and for any deck not running counter. There's obviously exceptions.
I would suggest running Force against any deck running white for RiP.
Given Eldrazi usually run LotV, Force is little help there, and Claims usually aren't much help through Chalice either - I really hate that deck.
I've run the blue side in Manaless dredge for quite a while, so whilst I have some experience there about what/how/when in that context, using Force here is fairly different as we can actually mulligan - shock horror! - so there has been quite a few slow hands I've kept simply because I've had a force & blue ready to fire against the impending RiP/Cage whatever.
What about you Parcher?
Have you been keeping slow, but playable hands with an active Force, that you would normally shuffle back in?
RE: the blue side (SPOILER ALERT)
Ceremonious Rejection. Stops Chalice, Eldrazi, Vials, Charbelcher, Grafdigger's Cage just to name a few.
I'll probably do some testing with this card, but I'm looking at this card as *a little narrow*.
I've not seen any of the other spoiled cards being useful for us yet.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
First of all, congratulations!
I still have some trouble against Eldrazi when I'm Dredging, though it's a lot better a matchup than it is for Storm, which is what I've been playing primarily for some time now. I'm curious as to how you side for the Eldrazi matchup. My strategy for game 2 (or when on the draw) was to 'board in more Dread Returns and targets for it, because a resolved Rider, Archon, or Elesh Norn ranges from pretty good to excellent in the matchup (Archon is almost an auto-win), and because there's a good chance Chalice would lock up our looting effects (except for Breakthrough) pretty much immediately. I'm not happy with the speedbump a Chalice on 1 presents, though, and I hate running mana-dredge without much looting. So I'm wondering what you've tried, what has worked, what hasn't, etc.
How do you feel about the number of Amalgams? I started testing it as a double in my maindeck last week, and it feels pretty sweet. Slow to attack but fast to power up a Dread Return. Would you consider going to 3-4 maindeck?
Again, well done on rocking everybody!
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Again. The 4 Serenity are for Eldrazi and Loam(Chalice/Leyline). Won't go into detail on it again. I would add more mana to ensure casting them, but have no room, and it's more important just to draw one. I never bring Dread against hard hate like Eldrazi. Everything else has to already be going right for it to be anything but a dead card. And just swarming the board beats them easily. 2 Amalgams seems right. They're not great in game one, though they do allay the removal of MD Dread. And since they require Narco or Ichorid to do anything, there's a definite point of diminishing returns.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Thanks for the feedback! I heard you about Serenity; was wondering whether you did anything else. If you've gone over other things you do for the matchup, I'll go digging in the thread.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
For Parcher fans...
Damon Whitby, a.k.a. Parcher. One of the original proponents of the Legacy, or 1.5, format.
https://soundcloud.com/humansofmagic...7-damon-whitby
“The most important lesson I’ve learned is letting that which truly does not matter, go.”
Damon Whitby has been advancing the Legacy format for over a decade. These days he can usually be found terrorizing opponents with his Dredge deck, although he has played a wide range of archetypes over the years.
This episode is filled with Damon’s experiences and musings on life. Never one to hold back, he talks about his rough childhood and what lies beneath his gruff exterior. Damon also talks about the mid-Atlantic Magic scene and some of the best players he’s interacted with. In many instances, the discussions verged into personal and life-related observations. The honesty really came through in this conversation.
As someone who grew up with The Source, I hope that I have done Damon justice in representing his views and that you will enjoy this recording.
Time stamps:
[4:33] Introduction
[7:01] Early childhood // family history // Seattle memories
[12:00] Hanging out with the punks
[14:57] Hooked on wargames
[19:58] Joining the army
[20:40] Games Workshop in Maryland
[22:47] Magic first impressions
[27:24] Breaking out of casual play with Pros-Bloom
[30:59] Meeting top local players and pros: Matt Linde, Kyle Rose, Brock Parker
[36:10] How “Huey” Jensen got his nickname
[38:06] Building the White Weenie deck that Linde won Nationals with
[39:47] Mike Long and Tongo Nation
[41:22] The greatest match ever played in Rochester draft
[43:50] Success at ’98 Regionals
[45:59] Transitioning to Extended and Legacy // First contact with The Source
[48:32] The Virginia crew: Anwar Ahmad, The Hatfields, David Gearhart, Dan Signorini, Dave Price, and Jesse Krieger
[53:25] Virgnia vs. Syracuse rivalry
[54:27] Perceptions of Legacy and its legitimacy
[58:06] Alix Hatfield: the best deck builder
[1:02:20] Mental preparation and honing one’s deck over time
[1:05:31] The importance of format knowledge
[1:08:43] The luckiest man in the world with Cabal Therapy?
[1 : 10 : 39] “Where other people have decision trees, I see my job as pruning the trees.”
[1 : 14 : 32] Dredge puts the fear into opponents // Letting opponents beat themselves
[1:20:12] Team Dredge goes on a tear // Keeping things fresh
[1:25:39] “I am my [tournament] record” — a fallacy
[1:27:53] Learning to let go of things that don’t matter
[1:29:23] On being direct
[1:31:47] Perceptions people have of Damon
[1:24:16] On legitimately disliking some people
[1:36:22] “You don’t break somebody else’s rice bowl to refill your own.”
[1:38:04] Origins of the name Parcher
[1:39:22] Dan Signorini
[1:45:32] Helping Dan prepare for PT Honolulu // Shaheen Soorani // Alex Majlaton
[1:47:32] From one generation to the next
[1:48:54] Ben Friedman’s rapid growth as a person
[1:52:10] Jarvis Yu
[1:55:14] “At his heart, Dan is a gigantic nerd” // judging a book by its cover
[1:59:44] Why BBD is a great player
[2:04:50] The power of listening // Signal to noise in the online community
[2:07:10] Generalizing Magic lessons to life
[2 : 12 : 50] How has the game been detrimental to Damon?
[2:17:03] Shoutout to the mid-Atlantic area
Last edited by Plague Sliver; 09-11-2016 at 12:47 AM.
A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"
Opening hand: mana confluence, led, pimp, breakthrough, grave-troll, thug and careful study. I would like to preface the discussion based on the unknown information of the opponent and being on the play. This hand is an obvious keep and can play a bit more controlling ( running out imp) or crazy fast casting breakthrough/led shenanigans. If I were to cast imp and then get wastelanded (good players know how deadly our lands are especially in the first couple turns and will waste us even though it sets them back) our hand know becomes a bit anaemic. Casting careful study draws us answers to facilitate the potential to negate wasteland, hopefully drawing lands and making for an insane second turn. I think hands that look this good can influence too quick a play without a true understanding of what potential plays can come from our opponent. " I really don't wanna get blown out by force, I better play pimp!" Even if my careful study gets countered I can still run out imp turn two or go ballistic. In my experience finding the most explosive turn two and threes are where dredge becomes a juggernaut, of course game two sometimes we have to "go for it." It's important to realize our first looting will often be countered and our potentially only land may not be available on turn two. Learning to sculpt a RESILIENT hand against the possibilities of two extremely prevalent (and sometimes backbreaking) cards of the format. Turn one we can be as devastating as almost any deck in the game but turn two (either with known information or running out a counter spell) we can be nearly unstoppable.
@jimmythegreek:
On the play, Unknown Opponent, Preside, Opening Hand:
Land
Breakthrough
Pimp
GGT
Thug
LED
Careful
Quick answer:
Land, LED : [no FOW], Breakthrough OR [FOW], Careful
Long answer:
obiouvsly goldfishing the best start is land, led, breakthrough so let's see how many times we can do this. According to mtggoldfish about 44% of the meta plays FOW:
13.10% miracles
10.30% grixis delver
4.72% BUG
4.72% UR delver
3.43% Canadian thr.
3.43% 4c Delver
2.15% Sneak&show
tot 41.85% -> rounded to 44% due to rogue decks with FOW
this means that 56% of the times we are goldfishing on turn one so land, led, breakthrough is the best start.
then also if they play FOW they have the 40% to have it in starting 7 so the actual probability to met a turn 1 FOW isn't 44% but it becomes 17.60%.
and if we find ourselves in that 17.60%?
we have 2 scenarios, they FOW LED or they don't
-if they don't FOW LED, we can proceed to breakthrough and crack and they will obv FOW ur spell -> we still have 2 dredgers in GY and can slowroll anyway during following turns.
-if they do FOW LED, what's the better play?
pimp and careful are the contenders here and cards that matters on this play are daze and wasteland.
- Pimp blanks none of these cards, having just one land means we can't cast another spell if they have one of those cards above (waste on our only land or daze our next spell), committing us to slowroll.
- careful instead can search for a second land blanking both wasteland and daze, if we're unlucky and will see no lands still we can slowrolling with 2 dredgers in gy
my2cents
I'd go with LED, Land, Study pitching the 2 dredgers in the yard as my opening play against an unknown opponent. I play LED first as an attempt to delay my opponent in identifying my deck because if I play the land first, they would already know I'm on Dredge and would increase the chance of LED being countered by FoW. Worst case, if they Force either of those two, I can still go for PImp on turn 2 then BT the next turn. If they don't, the I start dredging next turn and get more information before I attempt to go off. Going all in with Land, LED, BT, hold prio, crack LED is too risky in my opinion against an unknown opponent. If they force BT then I'm just left with slow dredge for the remainder of the game. My 0.02
sorry but i miss why you should play around something when 8/10 you can bust them and 2/10 you have the same results...
It's not the same results for 2/10 since you still have BT and PImp in your hand that you can cast next turn as supposed to going all in with LED+BT and getting BT countered on turn 1 since study and PImp will be discarded as part of LED's cost and would have to slow dredge for the rest of the game which isn't ideal. If I only had LED, BT, Land, and Dredger in my opening hand I would consider going off on turn 1 but given the opening hand provided as an example, I would make use of the other enablers as bait to ensure that I can go off successfully.
Against an unknown opponent, I'd go land, LED, Careful Study. On the other hand, if we know we're up against countermagic and with the fact I personally don't run PImp notwithstanding, I actually think it's a better play T1 than either Careful or Breakthrough (the reason I don't run PImp is that I don't think it's a good play after that compared with the looters).
I'd go Land, LED, PImp. They're most likely to Force the LED, and this way, even if they do, we get two Loots on the two subsequent turns with the opponent at -2 cards, and we've got a discard outlet to bin a Dredger right away. If they don't, and they Force the PImp (which I wouldn't recommend), we still get double-Loots with an LED that's live. Even if we get Wasted, we can still start Dredging if we land the PImp.
Postboard, I think PImp is likely too slow to be good, but one advantage is that it doesn't commit our starting Dredger right into a fast Extraction or Crypt.
[EDIT: Whoops! On the play, leading with LED is probably a good idea. On the draw, I'd think opening with a land is safer in case of Daze.]
Last edited by Ronald Deuce; 09-14-2016 at 12:22 PM.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I like these theory posts.
This is how I would play a Land & LED opener against an unknown opponent.
If they don't force the LED in anticipation of what you're holding, I would drop the land and proceed with Pimp.
If they do force LED, I usually assume they're not holding two active force and would drop the Land > B-thru.
Happy Hump Day!
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