[Primer] Elves!

[Julian23]

In the maindeck, I'd rather play Jitte or even Thornweald Archer.

In the sideboard, I'd rather play Meekstone.

[MDHackbert]

Before I'm off to yet another Kenya gig, a short update: Went 7-2 at the Bazaar of Moxen Paris this week, good enough to miss Top8 on tiebreakers in 11th place (~200 players). This is how my tournament went and what I played:
(report to follow later this/next week)

*Decklist and results snipped*

7-2 for 11th place out of ~200.

Deck felt great as usual, sideboard was also sweet even though I didn't really need much of it except for Jitte and Decays.

This finish also means that I'm qualified (via points) for the 10k€ BoM Super Finals in November! :-))

Why do you run no alternate tutor targets in the SB like Progenitus or Ruric Thar, the Unbowed?

[Echelon]

B/c those targets have to beat "I kill you this turn if you don't answer this in 3-2-1-too late" (which they don't).

[dte]

In the maindeck, I'd rather play Jitte or even Thornweald Archer.

In the sideboard, I'd rather play Meekstone.

On the Archer's side, why Thornweald over Ezuri's? The mana difference is important vs delver.

Otherwise I 100% agree that if there is a card to play to kill delvers, this card's name is jitte. The card is incredibly good.

[Julian23]

Because it also kills Tarmogoyf and Griselbrand.

[dte]

You find it more relevant than the additional mana vs delver decks, and during glimpses?
I find that most often if we want to GSZ for him to kill a delver, it is because I am mana-choked (otherwise I would go for Ooze or wait for WRP).

[Julian23]

I don't think the mana difference matters at all. What matters much more to me is having an otherwise pretty useless creatures vs a quite decent one. But in the end, neither is good enough.

[Lemnear]

New list:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Genesis Chamber
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Reclamation Sage
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Polukranos, World Eater

SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Lost Legacy

The new twists on this testing lists are removing the burst plays like NO for the grindy Genesis Chambers which spit out tokens and double up your board presence for every dork your drop making it harder for your opponent to overcome the sheer numbers if you go into bouncing and replaying stuff so you can value-block all day, forcing your opponent to deal with the artifact. The tokens work well with your legendary Lands and put more pressure on your opponent than Jitte, especially against control decks. I decided to play 4 as the effect adds up and turn every topdecked dork into a real threat late in the game against decks which deal with creatures 1-for-1. The Chambers also stick after a Terminus so if you topdeck just a single creature, you are back in the game. Postboard they feed Cabal Therapy in a nice dork-fueled variant of Young Pyromancer.

I stick to my signature 4 Sages in a metagame with Counterbalance and Chalice everywhere. The Sages are pure cardadvantage against every Vial, Equip, Counterbalance and Chalice dropped against you and habing such a high number main reflects the metagame full of the previous named cards. I don't want to rely on a single Sage and GSZ against the sheer volumne of targets in the metagame. The Sideboard decays are supporting the plan to push permanent based hate against the wall.

I am testing Lost Legacy in the sideboard as a blowout against combo decks and maybe it even works against Miracles to get rid of Terminus. Dunno. Time will tell. Also Polukranos is replacing the WRP as a potential boardwipe and fatty

[Mr Miagi]

Although I totally love the genesis chamber idea and durdle aspect of it I'm really missing the "I win button" in this list. Could you not /does it not make sense to make room for one Craterhoof?

[Lemnear]

Although I totally love the genesis chamber idea and durdle aspect of it I'm really missing the "I win button" in this list. Could you not /does it not make sense to make room for one Craterhoof?

This is a testing list. I might end up with a Hoof in place of the 4th Heritage because Chamber works well with Cradle & Hoof

Dunno if the deck NEEDS an I-Win-Button.

[Mr Miagi]

Well, without the NO I guess we are already conceeding to fast combo so perhaps there really is no need for the "i win creature". Still I'm almost "afraid" to enter into legacy tournament withouth the I win option.

Also, can sombody explain quickly why is it acceptable to cut the fourth heritage but people usually play 4 Nettle sentinel (over the fourth heritage)? With rather limted experience with elves I always welcomed more mana, rather than 2/2 body. Is it beucase of the glimpse of nature wins where they allow you to chain spells and that's more important? Dunno..

[Navsi]

Drawing a second or third Nettle Sentinel makes your engine better, but drawing a second Heritage Druid doesn't help you beyond just being a 1/1 elf unless your opponent removes your first one.

[Lemnear]

Well, without the NO I guess we are already conceeding to fast combo so perhaps there really is no need for the "i win creature". Still I'm almost "afraid" to enter into legacy tournament withouth the I win option.

Also, can sombody explain quickly why is it acceptable to cut the fourth heritage but people usually play 4 Nettle sentinel (over the fourth heritage)? With rather limted experience with elves I always welcomed more mana, rather than 2/2 body. Is it beucase of the glimpse of nature wins where they allow you to chain spells and that's more important? Dunno..

Because Heritage is redundant in the gimpse chain unlike Nettle and Nettle goes beating people up

[Zombie]

I like Genesis Chamber a lot. Makes empty bounces do something and isn't as huge of a risk to play as NO.

One thing that concerns me, though, is how it's still a replacement in a spell slot: The deck already plays a ton of mana in the slots where Storm would typically play discard, and it shows in hands that just have mana but nothing to sink it into. You just don't draw business but random dorks and land after land with nothing to do with them. Turning some of that mana into manasinks or disruption would be wonderful.

More Sages kind-of does this, but that high a number of them just feels odd.

[Atikin]

So I'm running the following list atm:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
8 Fetches

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Jitte

As an exercise I decided to make a guide of how I would sideboard against the various common matchups atm. This is taking this exact list above and assuming the opponent's list looks relatively like what I have linked for each matchup. Here's what I got:

Miracles (Decklist: http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/fr/ur...vent=21&evt=21)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Jitte
+1 Null Rod

-3 Nettle Sentinel
-3 Natural Order
-2 Heritage Druid
-2 Gaea’s Cradle
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Behemoth

On the draw: -3 Thoughtseize +1 Glimpse +1 Heritage +1 Cradle

Death and Taxes (Decklist: http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/fr/ur...vent=21&evt=21)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Null Rod

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Scavenging Ooze

Eldrazi (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21258&iddeck=162782)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Jitte

-2 Heritage Druid
-2 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Glimpse

Grixis Tempo (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21175&iddeck=162044)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Jitte

-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Natural Order

Shardless BUG (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160759)
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Jitte

-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Cavern of Souls

Can potentially +1 Decay -1 Quirion Ranger(?) if you see more targets for it. (Cage, Plague, etc…)

ANT/TES (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21156&iddeck=161855)
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Null Rod

-3 Wirewood Symbiote
-3 Elvish Visionary
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Infect (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160747)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Thoughtseize

-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Lands (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160743)
+2 Surgical Extraction

-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Dredge (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21286&iddeck=163053)
+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction

-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Elvish Visionary
-1 Wirewood Symbiote
-1 Nettle Sentinel

Burn (Decklist: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20771&iddeck=158782)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Jitte

-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Let me know what you guys and if you would board differently in any of the matchups!

[Julian23]

Bring in Jitte vs Infect. If you only connect once, it's almost impossible for them to win.

Discard and Decay also help with buying enough time to connect.

[blind]

Miracles (Decklist: http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/fr/ur...vent=21&evt=21)
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Jitte
+1 Null Rod

-3 Nettle Sentinel
-3 Natural Order
-2 Heritage Druid
-2 Gaea’s Cradle
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Behemoth

Why you keep the 2nd Hoof?

When do you want your Behemoth Vs Miracle?
- For GSZ ftw? No, it's not the game plan, you don't want overextend.
- For win if you go with Glimpse? The real question is more : Do you need Behemoth for win when you are in combo glimpse? I think no. If you draw your deck, you draw your hate absolutly everything. With your hate you can wait one turn.

Win with Behemoth it's minimal.

[jjkbb2005]

Why you keep the 2nd Hoof?

When do you want your Behemoth Vs Miracle?
- For GSZ ftw? No, it's not the game plan, you don't want overextend.
- For win if you go with Glimpse? The real question is more : Do you need Behemoth for win when you are in combo glimpse? I think no. If you draw your deck, you draw your hate absolutly everything. With your hate you can wait one turn.

Win with Behemoth it's minimal.

There are definitely times when you want the I-win button via Hoof, and allowing yourself that option is more important than the unfortunate hands where you draw him and can't cast him. Glimpse for me has actually been very weak against Miracles as alot of the time you will get locked out of casting 1 mana spells with the CB and Top combo. Against Miracles I usually shave one of the Heritages (rather than 2) and only 2 Nettles. I still like Thoughtseize on the draw though it sometimes has the potential to be a bad top deck (as similar to Glimpse it can be sometimes awkward). It's upside of hitting a CB/Jace/Mentor/FOW/Counterspell is still very important IMO.

@Atikin I would consider the possibility of second cavern in either the SB or the main depending on your meta.

[Lemnear]

There are definitely times when you want the I-win button via Hoof, and allowing yourself that option is more important than the unfortunate hands where you draw him and can't cast him. Glimpse for me has actually been very weak against Miracles as alot of the time you will get locked out of casting 1 mana spells with the CB and Top combo. Against Miracles I usually shave one of the Heritages (rather than 2) and only 2 Nettles. I still like Thoughtseize on the draw though it sometimes has the potential to be a bad top deck (as similar to Glimpse it can be sometimes awkward). It's upside of hitting a CB/Jace/Mentor/FOW/Counterspell is still very important IMO.

@Atikin I would consider the possibility of second cavern in either the SB or the main depending on your meta.

This post makes me wanna grab a mic...

You dismiss Glimpse despite all the discard, Sages, Decays and GSZ to keep Counterbalance off the table and make an argument in "being unable to resolve 1cc spells", but at the same time claim that 1cc Elves and Cradle can produce enought mana to cast Craterhoof and win because for some reason your Miracles Opponent boarded out all his Terminus'? Why you can suddenly deploy 1cc Elves for Hoof but not for Glimpse?

Keeping CB off the table and Grinding out their removal with cardadvantage engines like Glimpse, Visionary, Sages, etc is how your win, not Craterhoofs you a) cannot cast or b) get terminused anyways

[jjkbb2005]

This post makes me wanna grab a mic...

You dismiss Glimpse despite all the discard, Sages, Decays and GSZ to keep Counterbalance off the table and make an argument in "being unable to resolve 1cc spells", but at the same time claim that 1cc Elves and Cradle can produce enought mana to cast Craterhoof and win because for some reason your Miracles Opponent boarded out all his Terminus'? Why you can suddenly deploy 1cc Elves for Hoof but not for Glimpse?

Keeping CB off the table and Grinding out their removal with cardadvantage engines like Glimpse, Visionary, Sages, etc is how your win, not Craterhoofs you a) cannot cast or b) get terminused anyways

Cavern of Souls...

Glimpse has the tendency to be utter terrible sometimes (Nor did I say you need to board all out 1-2 is reasonable enough), and is entirely reliant on whether they have CB up. If possible you would like your Abrupt Decays to be used more as creature removal (picking off Monastery Mentors, Izzet Staticasters, Snaps, and Cliques) rather than dedicating them solely to CB *obviously if need it for CB that's understandable. Also with 1cc Elves you have the potential to still cast them with cavern. The whole point of the matchup is to create a steady clock WITHOUT overextending. Glimpse completely defies this and forces you to at least somewhat overextend in order to gain value off of it, and has the potential to become a dead card in the matchup.

You aren't usually winning the game with Craterhoof most of the time but having 1 Craterhoof allows you to transition into the I-win Elves deck if needed (if you are able to surgical his terminus, he does not have a top he can flip, etc).

*I also said only one Hoof not two...there is no reason to have more than one