Tellin' ya. DRS. He's the better lavamancer who also plugs holes for DNT with accelerating early, sustaining through the race, and finishing off in the end. Only "downside" to him is that he's not red -- so you can't live the dream of DRS and Moon in a DnT list.Originally Posted by Finn
@Finn's original point: Yeah, if Lavamancer or [insert red card]'s effects are being used to finish (we can generalize their ideal appearance in the game as "not in the opening 9 cards of the game"), P&K would likely be strictly better. But by the same token, are the effects of a splash worth it? Are your matchups "better" because you have some turn 3/4/5 splash-color bomb vs the usual T3/4/5 play as mono-white?
Edit: This is the inspiration I keep coming back to for a splash DnT. http://www.mtgdecks.net/deck/liga_de...viciano/88421/
I'd probably run 3-4x DRS alongside the core of DnT. Viciano had the wayfarer/safekeeper/wasteland/KotR/canopy synergies. Part of me says the current rotation of DnT cards is even better than that.
I was thinking of DRS, but would you have the 3 color manabase? that seems really difficult to manage with more white at the core. I am thinking that the green ability could be really nice to sustain game and grab the winning piece, but black just seems like a game-changer on its own. Beyond that, some other pieces could cute, but outside of quasali, and KotR, I don't really see the need with our new cards. would you run 2 or 3 savannah for 3 DRS?
EDIT:
I could see having the 1 Scrubland and even using Orzhov Pontiff, which could be too fun!
There have been many attempts to make D+T work in three colors. The perversion to the lands is still too much. You always lose out on mana denial to do it, and you are left with an unstable manabase in the end. The upside is just not strong enough to justify this.
I have relegated Mirran Crusader to the sb for now. Swapped him out for THC #3. I seem to be drawing him at inopportune times. Now that I said that I am going to be looking duplicate legends every game. Just watch.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
@Finn
Gaier Reach Sanitarium alongside a miser's SotL is always an option if that is a problem.
very interesting read. I've also come to the conclusion that a lot of us have perhaps underestimated THC with all the hype generated by the new cards. Cheat-splashes requiring 4 Cavern of souls aside, I think that 3 Recruiter/2 Prelate/2 THC is going to be the most common split...
This is also what I'm needing to figure out tbh.
3 Karakas
3 Plains
4 Splash (GW = 4 duals or 3 dual/1 canopy)
3 Port
4 Waste
6 fetch
The second color means you need to reduce [colorless] production from your lands. I opt to go with 6 fetches to find 7 white-producing lands (duals/basics). 3 Karakas round me out to 10 "I make the mana" lands vs 7 "lockdown" lands a la port/waste.
Tri-color increases the strain on the manabase and I cannot help but think you scrap the ports entirely to bump up to 8 fetch/6 dual/1 utility land. I'm also wondering if a city of brass type land makes sense if someone really really wanted to push 3 colors (not that this is a good idea). The damage you take (city, confluence) and/or the land fizzling away (gemstone) has me thinking this is the wrong approach. Deathrite/Nobles impacting the number of lands you need is also important.
I'm trying to craft a list where we can fit the 2nd THC and I'm having trouble. I have an idea, but it may be too radical.
We've already cut one each of: Phyrexian Revoker, Mother of Runes, and Stoneforge Mystic (now at 3 each).
I'm loathe to cut any Flickerwisp (currently at 4) - the card is so good.
That leaves possible cuts to: Mother of Runes (down to 2), Phyrexian Revoker (down to 2), the Banisher Priest/Mirran Crusader flex slot (down to 0) or...
WHAT IF we cut a Stoneforge Mystic (down to 2)? This idea is from Maverick, who has been playing just 2x Stoneforge Mystic for a long time. Thoughts? Is this too wild? Is it sacrilegious? Would love input. If you're against this idea - why has Maverick settled on 2x Stoneforge Mystic yet we want the full four (or three)?
SfM is DnT's card to break fair creature mirrors. It doesn't have a lot of them.
Maverick has more - KotR is also a fair creature mirror breaker, and GSZ means you're playing 8 copies.
If it is true that THC is that good (and it may well be) if we want a deck that can maximize her potential, I think we shouldn't be looking at Death and Taxes, but rather decks that can accelerate her out. In those decks a slightly higher curve is more sustainable anyway, because of the extra mana. So, Maverick with Noble Hierarch, Junk with Deathrite Shaman, or perhaps even Deadguy with Chrome Mox seem like better places to try to maximize the effect of THC.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I've tried 2 SFM with my Imperial Recruiter (I played the full set of Recruiters) build and thought it was pretty decent, but you do notice the hurt a little against a creature heavy decks because naturally drawing the SFM is super nice instead of needing to sometimes recruit it, I think that if the meta is creature light that 2 SFM is alright, but if there's expected creatures in the meta, I'd suggest keeping it at a 3 SFM count.
Boils to creature meta(D&T, Maverick, Elves, Eldrazi, etc.), keep 3 SFM, not too heavy on the creatures (Storm, Lands, RUG Delver, MUD, etc.), 2 SFM seems to be alright with recruiters, at least when I played the 4 Recruiters.
Cockatrice: EMFry
If that is simply an observation about THC's potential in legacy, then I would probably agree (although it is hardly a new one). But if it is an argument against playing it in DnT, then it is absolutely flawed. By that logic, Brainstorm should only be played in Miracles, cause that deck maximizes it more than any other. Obviously, that isn't the case, cause Brainstorm is still a stellar card even if you aren't using it to set up miracles. Yes, another shell might be able to squeeze more value out of THC, but DnT can still benefit plenty from it. And I'm pretty sure that DnT is an overall better deck than most builds attempting to go all-in on it...
Thank you.
Yeah, that isn't what I am saying at all.
My point was simply that this deck might not be the best one to use THC to her maximum effect, because her effect is stronger the earlier you can play her. This doesn't preclude Death and Taxes from running her at all, my observation was simply a caution to the idea of running too many and ruining the curve, or cutting other important utility creatures chasing her effect. In those other decks there are ways to mitigate the effect of multiple copies like Brainstorm or Liliana.
I apologize for pointing out the obvious to you. I assure you, it is not a mistake I will make again.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I'm pretty sure Luca understand what you were saying, but perhaps you did not grasp their point. As Luca said, the fact that we don't squeeze as much out of THC as others is insufficient reason to not run her. Luca is not even advocating a full playset, merely justifying that we continue to run some. There's no need to be this hostile.
I grasped thier point perfectly well, but unfortunately it is a refutation of something I never said. You also refute something I never said, so while you imagine you are clarifying thier point, you are just repeating thier misrepresentation of my point.
You are right, there was no need to write such a hostile response, to misrepresentat what I said to be akin to saying Brainstorm should only be run in Miracles or some such. I already said I regretted having even bothering to make the point that I did, since it seems that it cannot be read without being grossly misunderstood. That's my fault and why it was obviously a mistake to even point out.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
It would probably help if the obvious hadn't been pointed out already by pretty much every person commenting on THC itt, especially when it has zero relevance on whether we should be running it in DnT. Considering that this IS indeed a thread about Death and Taxes, and not Maverick or Junk or white Eldrazi, I think my clarification was perfectly warranted, least some mistakenly equate the ad nauseam repetition of "THC belongs in a deck which can power her out on turn 2" with "it should not be played in DnT". My (somewhat exasperated, but definitely not hostile) post was directed at this general ambiguity in the discourse, not at you in particular, and I explicitly gave your post the benefit of the doubt. Alas, people will take it as they will...
Squabbles aside, I am not even completely sure that DnT isn't the best THC deck: even though we should not run 4 and she won't come down before turn 3, we still have the best mana-denial package to complement its effect, and we play the highest number of Karakas + Vial to make it a veritable lategame pain in the ass...
@THC: It is pretty clear, that the new Thalia isn't a core choice (compared to SfM, Thalia 1.0, Mother etc.) for DnT. This deck is way to slow to use her full potential, she will only shine if you got a nice grip of manadenial working (which includes a Vial T1) and detain your opponent enough. If you face other common situations, where she simply is another Beater for T3-4 or lategame than she is not as good and maybe only a 3/2 First Striker that you can protect with Karakas which is worse if your opponent also have Karakas or 3/2 isnt enough if a gofy already hit the field etc.
THC is really strong if you can play her as early as possible: Which needs a) mana cheating and b) full playset and c) she isn't good enough if you are behind on the field. Conclusion all options lead away from DnT. As some mentioned, you will never tutor for her with Recruiter and having only 2 copies will result into a lot of situations that can be good with her but you don't draw her. DnT also have a lot of other usefull cc3 creatures and can also reduce the numbers and play more proven cc2 stuff like Serra Avenger.
THC will be much better in any stompy shell that can power her out T1-2 including much better protection with Playset of Cavern. Decks for her: Eldrazi & Taxes or Soldier Stompy - but both decks aren't respected in the same way as DnT, but in the past DnT was also not widley played and profit a lot from the strong GP Strassbourg performance and the ongoing support of Wizards with new cards. It is more or less the same with Deathrite Shaman, this guy is played in any BGx shell since he is very strong but his true power is reserved for Elves Combo thanks to all the tribal synergy.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I think Luca is probably right. While D+T is not the best way to maximize THC, it probably is the best deck to use her in. That is, while you can power her out earlier, the changes to the deck required are a net loss to the deck. And she is certainly effective as is. I have gone back to three.
Also, going down to 2 mother of runes is a terrible idea.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Unless by "core choice" you mean "automatic 4-of (which, at this point, only really applies to TGT), that's not pretty clear at all. The 2 best placing DnT lists in the previous weeks (Aubert Arnaud at BoM Paris and Marco Montani at Ovino XI) both played THC, one as a two-of, and the other as a 1-of (but he has since said he would raise the number to 2). If anything, the evidence we have so far seems to suggest that some number of THCs will become a staple in most successful DnT lists.
And this is where you are hopelessly wrong. People get so obsessed with the locking potential of the card that they act as if it will only be worth it when it prevents opponents from casting ANYTHING at all. Decks in legacy are incredibly efficient, and will often utilize all of their mana well into the mid-late game, which means THC will often screw with their plans even later on. More so when they also have to deal with TGT, Port and Wasteland. Even when they already have all the lands they need, delaying shuffle effects and blockers is nothing to scoff at: DnT is not a pure control deck and it has had a strong tempo element at least ever since TGT was printed. THC will improve that aspect of our game in all but the most desperate board positions.This deck is way to slow to use her full potential, she will only shine if you got a nice grip of manadenial working (which includes a Vial T1) and detain your opponent enough. If you face other common situations, where she simply is another Beater for T3-4 or lategame than she is not as good and maybe only a 3/2 First Striker that you can protect with Karakas which is worse if your opponent also have Karakas or 3/2 isnt enough if a gofy already hit the field etc.
zzzz...THC will be much better in any stompy shell that can power her out T1-2 including much better protection with Playset of Cavern. Decks for her: Eldrazi & Taxes or Soldier Stompy
Holy shit... I actually meant the Brainstorm comparison as an hyperbole, but I see here that I was actually onto something. Please go tell those Grixis Delver players that DRS is NOT a staple element of that deck since the card only truly belongs in Elves....It is more or less the same with Deathrite Shaman, this guy is played in any BGx shell since he is very strong but his true power is reserved for Elves Combo thanks to all the tribal synergy.
At this point I am not sure whether I'm getting trolled, or if you people actually feel clever by posting stuff like this...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote