[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Jain_Mor]

@Echelon & Arian, I put a fatty last on my list of fat, and didn't suggest cutting one in the end in my speculations. And I agree midrange/combo sounds much better

Fair enough on diabolic intent, perhaps sidisi is better.

I wouldn't ever cut the deeds, I think they are particularly great looking at this build.

Punishing fire can also be used to kill your vets in a pinch, upping your "sac" outlets.
So yea, my instincts tell me +3/4 punishing fires +3/4 willows, -1 pulse -1 tracker -1 Sidisi/STE/DRS -3/4 lands. I think adding that grindy combo will up the power of the build, but like I said I'll test your initial list first.

Regarding planeswalkers, I usually have two slots on my sideboard dedicated to card advantage for grindy matchups, it's possible that planeswalkers belong in your sideboard as a way to just up your threats in the face of more interaction sided in by your opponent.

[UseLess]

A quick question after seeing Bobmans' list: why didn't Wurmcoil Engine make the cut? Played some cube with Sneak and Wurmcoil and that's just disgusting. I'm having a hard time imagining how Primeval Titan is better, or that great for a matter of fact. Is the two towers interaction really that solid despite opposing DRS's, pressure etc.? Sure, recurring a 6/6 trample every turn is nice, but it seems a bit underwhelming compared to what other fatties can do.

[square_two]

I'm too rusty with Nic Fit...tried a league last night, lost to RUG delver twice. And I never actually got to activate Sneak Attack across 4 matches, which left me super bummed.

Really liking the idea of P Fire and Groves, there were many times I was wanting to draw some removal, any removal. Also had both Steves in hand a couple times which felt awkward.

[Arianrhod]

A quick question after seeing Bobmans' list: why didn't Wurmcoil Engine make the cut? Played some cube with Sneak and Wurmcoil and that's just disgusting. I'm having a hard time imagining how Primeval Titan is better, or that great for a matter of fact. Is the two towers interaction really that solid despite opposing DRS's, pressure etc.? Sure, recurring a 6/6 trample every turn is nice, but it seems a bit underwhelming compared to what other fatties can do.

He's been really good for me. Wurmcoil is either the top choice or near the top of fatties that got left out due to space. He's very, very good. The thing with Primeval Titan is that not only does Primeval tie together the Two Towers (which I have been SUPER critical of for years. This is the first build I've ever found where they've overperformed for me), but he also "draws" you 4 cards per Sneak -- two on etb, two on swing. The amount of deck thinning that represents is very high. Furthermore, that's your gateway to being able to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul with relative ease. It's never going to be "easy" per se, but Primeval smooths that out an awful lot.

[Brael]

One more question to ponder before deciding to buy into the Groves or not to make this Sneak Attack build work.

How has the deck fared against Wasteland taking it off the ability to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul?

[Arianrhod]

One more question to ponder before deciding to buy into the Groves or not to make this Sneak Attack build work.

How has the deck fared against Wasteland taking it off the ability to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul?

Hasn't mattered in the slightest. Being able to hardcast those things /at all/ has won me games, but I don't really go into games with the assumption that that is my gameplan (except emrakul vs miracles, sometimes, which they don't run wasteland so dgaf). Wasteland decks are bad at stopping Sneak Attack, which conveniently gets around not having mana sources/colors.

The deck's built to either cast things or cheat them. Shutting down one avenue only enables the other.

[solnox]

Has anyone else been playing BUG fit lists?

If so can I see it? Just want to compare

[Echelon]

Just skip back a couple of pages. TTX posted a rather juicy one.

[Ralf]

Has anyone else been playing BUG fit lists?

If so can I see it? Just want to compare

You have 2 BUG lists in my signature, as well.

The BUG Wish Fit list is not really up-to-date but it is a hell lot of fun to play.

[Navsi]

I'm gonna try the Sneak build at Legacy this Sunday - will have a report for you guys. Since my meta has quite a lot of combo, miracles, and lands but not much Eldrazi, I'm gonna go with something like this:

4 Vet / Therapy / Zenith
1 STE / 1 DRS
1 Witness / Tracker / Empath
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk / Sidisi
1 Primeval / Inferno
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul

3 PFire
3 Deed
2 Decay

4 Sneak
3 Top

3 Grove
1 Taiga / Badlands
2 Bayou
7 Fetchland
2 Forest / Mountain / Swamp
1 Tower / Stronghold

----

2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Shriekmaw
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Garruk Relentless

I dropped the Pyroclasms from the side for Golgari Charm since Punishing Fire fills a lot of the same role. Since Eldrazi aren't expected to make much of a showing, I should probably also drop the Shriekmaws, but they are pretty nice for eating people's Goyfs with. To be honest this slot should probably be Carpet of Flowers.

[Warden]

I'm getting name-dropped. I have ideas to share.

@Arianrhod: You're so smart with this deck lol. Primetime + Sneak + 2 towers and 2 fetches (for 2 lands of choice) = 6 cards filtered out of the deck for R. That's. Just. Gross. Your points about PrimeTime opening up hardcasting is really good. Especially with a rise in DnT and Containment Priests, being able to legitimately cast stuff from hand should be the final choice.

I think Wurmcoil is too much value not to run. He's also [colorless] so even the worst colorscrew keeps him live.

@Deed: I still stand by my thoughts on Deed being too slow for the meta. Bobmans quotes me and that's still my logic. I believe the weenie deck gained so much ground against midrange stuff like Nic Fit. Sanctum locks you out, Revoker turns Deed off, and Recruiter helps them recover quickly after the boardwipe.

@Pfires: What doesn't make sense to me is pfires engine...it appears slow and requires a win-more position to generate upside. Even the gross PrimeTime interactions (grabs double grove) would mean you've more or less already won, correct? What deck is the engine great against? DnT and Delver. Again, I'm of the opinion that DnT gained stuff to outclass midrange decks. They also rock wastelands and taxing effects. Delver doesn't need to be handled with pfires. You can run other options and mitigate your vulnerability to their wastelands.

The pfires engine also needs a safety net to run effectively (Loam) -- because wasteland makes your manabase and fires themselves vulnerable. I'm just not sold on it. I'd be more inclined to run Burning Wish in those slots so I can grab a toolbox answer or run straight removal with a diversified casting cost.

@Navsi: If you aren't expecting Eldrazi Aggro, what are you game planning against?

@Midrange vs Combo: After reading the discussion, I'm still thinking the deck can go either way. If it opts for midrange, I'd drop some of the green stuff like Tracker for some value in Eldrazi, Kolaghan's Command, Wurmcoil Engine, and Planeswalkers. I think I told both Bobmans and Kev that Meren isn't needed for SneakyFit. You're ultimately leapfrogging manacosts: 1/2/3cc --> sneak (4) --> maybe a thrag/sidisi (5) --> bombs (6+).

[Arianrhod]

I'm gonna try the Sneak build at Legacy this Sunday - will have a report for you guys. Since my meta has quite a lot of combo, miracles, and lands but not much Eldrazi, I'm gonna go with something like this:

4 Vet / Therapy / Zenith
1 STE / 1 DRS
1 Witness / Tracker / Empath
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk / Sidisi
1 Primeval / Inferno
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul

3 PFire
3 Deed
2 Decay

4 Sneak
3 Top

3 Grove
1 Taiga / Badlands
2 Bayou
7 Fetchland
2 Forest / Mountain / Swamp
1 Tower / Stronghold

----

2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Shriekmaw
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Garruk Relentless

I dropped the Pyroclasms from the side for Golgari Charm since Punishing Fire fills a lot of the same role. Since Eldrazi aren't expected to make much of a showing, I should probably also drop the Shriekmaws, but they are pretty nice for eating people's Goyfs with. To be honest this slot should probably be Carpet of Flowers.

Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

Pyroclasm will probably never leave my sideboard -- the extra 1 point of damage is just so relevant so often -- especially vs DnT, Elves, and Grixis Delver, which are three of the matchups where you most want this effect. I also furiously dislike losing to Elves, so I'm admittedly biased and have no problem going overboard on that matchup to just really jam a boot up their collective asses.

Good luck! I look forward to your report!

[Bobmans]

Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

Indeed!!

Also, you mentioned Chandra, ToD as a possible option. Don't you think that the +1 ability to flip a card into exile is kind of shitty. Because you cannot flip bombs to drop into Sneak Attack. Also if you cast Chandra, chances are that you cannot +1 for value on both abilities. First one, you're probably out of mana and cannot cast what you flip. 2nd, you out of mana and adding RR to your manapool doesn't really help here unless you have like 1 or 2 additional mana left to do something. As much as i want to like Chandra ToD, i do not think she's really gonna be an addition (unlike Chandra, Flamecaller (freakin' 6cmc)) or Garruk R. While writing this i might even consider Garruk Primal Hunter, since its -3 becomes more or less a Griselbrand activation.

I really get Warden's point about PFire. Looking at in on paper that was my initial thought as well. I was forced to actually go with it and found it did more than i initially thought it would do. Also about Deed being slow. I just cannot accept that Deed isn't going to cut it anymore in terms of speed. That card turns games around, and talking about removal, that Deed is one of the reasons to run NicFit in the first place. Like i said, one of the reasons.
This Sneak Attack NicFit could be approached in 2 ways: 1. A more combo oriented approach. 2. A more control oriented approach (with a combo finish). Depending on your playstyle you could/should adjust the removal package accordingly.

[Arianrhod]

Indeed!!

Also, you mentioned Chandra, ToD as a possible option. Don't you think that the +1 ability to flip a card into exile is kind of shitty. Because you cannot flip bombs to drop into Sneak Attack. Also if you cast Chandra, chances are that you cannot +1 for value on both abilities. First one, you're probably out of mana and cannot cast what you flip. 2nd, you out of mana and adding RR to your manapool doesn't really help here unless you have like 1 or 2 additional mana left to do something. As much as i want to like Chandra ToD, i do not think she's really gonna be an addition (unlike Chandra, Flamecaller (freakin' 6cmc)) or Garruk R. While writing this i might even consider Garruk Primal Hunter, since its -3 becomes more or less a Griselbrand activation.

I really get Warden's point about PFire. Looking at in on paper that was my initial thought as well. I was forced to actually go with it and found it did more than i initially thought it would do. Also about Deed being slow. I just cannot accept that Deed isn't going to cut it anymore in terms of speed. That card turns games around, and talking about removal, that Deed is one of the reasons to run NicFit in the first place. Like i said, one of the reasons.
This Sneak Attack NicFit could be approached in 2 ways: 1. A more combo oriented approach. 2. A more control oriented approach (with a combo finish). Depending on your playstyle you could/should adjust the removal package accordingly.

I like the PFire idea from a theoretical standpoint. I dislike it from a wallet standpoint, as I don't have Groves :S

We'll see what happens in the coming week or so as we start getting reports in from people who are trying it. I could see it working, though, for sure.

[Weebo]

I finished off my set of Sneak Attack to try this out (more of an excuse, really - I already wanted to do that). I have no idea when I'll actually get a chance to play it but I'll certainly report back if I do. It looks like a really entertaining list, if nothing else.

@Arianrhod: If you did have the Groves, any thoughts on how you would edit your list to include PFire?

[Arianrhod]

I finished off my set of Sneak Attack to try this out (more of an excuse, really - I already wanted to do that). I have no idea when I'll actually get a chance to play it but I'll certainly report back if I do. It looks like a really entertaining list, if nothing else.

@Arianrhod: If you did have the Groves, any thoughts on how you would edit your list to include PFire?

I'd probably start with something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shriekmaw
2 Slaughter Games
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Gaze of Granite

[Echelon]

Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

Carpet has also helped me hardcast Griselbrand vs. RUG Delver on turn 4/5 or so. It's pretty damn good for those bomb (or, you know, nuke) dropper builds.

@Navsi: You're going to need at least 1/2 more fatties in that list. You'll be finding yourself in a situation where you do have the Sneak Attack but no bomb to drop more often than you'll find funny.

[Arianrhod]

Carpet has also helped me hardcast Griselbrand vs. RUG Delver on turn 4/5 or so. It's pretty damn good for those bomb (or, you know, nuke) dropper builds.

@Navsi: You're going to need at least 1/2 more fatties in that list. You'll be finding yourself in a situation where you do have the Sneak Attack but no bomb to drop more often than you'll find funny.

He has the same number I do, if I'm reading his list correctly. He just compacted the lines -- ie, he still has 1 Inferno + 1 Primeval, not an either/or situation.

[Echelon]

He has the same number I do, if I'm reading his list correctly. He just compacted the lines -- ie, he still has 1 Inferno + 1 Primeval, not an either/or situation.

You're absolutely right! Silly notation.

[MD.Ghost]

I brewed with a lot of other decks over the last year, but Arianrhod this Sneaky Build is bonkers and may help that i grap my dust-covered Nic Fit cards again. Great idea - thank you!

I also like (since i played Punishing Fit alot) Bobmans idea with PFire: repeatable Removal Spells aren't not the worst idea (look at DtB, a lot of decks with creatures), it also improves the already strong Primeval Titan.

Overall i am not sold on the full playset (especially not if you have also the PFire Engine) of Sneak Attack and would like to see a 3:1 solution, with either a single tutor like Diabolic Intent or a cc4 planeswalker like Garruk Relentless (kills a dude, stalls the field and can also tutor up bombs once flipped).

I would also vote for at least 2 Carpet of Flowers at Side, it's perfect since we already cut Explorers vs Miracle and it will help against all the tax counters (paired with Wastelands) if we play against delver decks.

@Arianrhod: I feel thanks to PFire Engine the miracle matchups improves also one step, even more with carpets. I think exclusive cards like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Gaze of Granite aren't needed with this Engine or other maindeck improvements. I personally would grap Garruk Relentless over any Ugin in terms of speed (cc4 vs 8) and matchups because you can use Garruk against various decks compared to Ugin that feels like he is only for "Drop a nuclear bomb vs Miracle". Gaze of Granite is more or less the same, since you need 5+ mana in most cases you can also pack other a lot of other cards but overall i think you don't need more bombs if you already include the solid PFire Engine in terms of manasink or grind.

---

Some cards i like to discuss with all of you:

Kolaghan's Command: very flexible, always 2:1, it is not as dead as other removal spells if you have nothing to kill on the field and can also grap creatures for another round with Sneak Attack

Karakas: As land number 23 (with 61 cards), it will slightly improve hard matchups like reanimator, sneak show, lands (Primeval Titan can also find it), can EoT bounce Gaddock Teeg or taxing Thalia 1.0 if we wan't to slam down Sneak Attack or cast Zenith - Karakas can also be solid if we see a rise of DnT (especially if they also run Thalia 2.0) and you can bounce your own Grisel&Emrakul after Sneak. Maybe it needs legends like Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Nissa, Vastwood Seer or Tasigur.

Nahiri, the Harbinger Hell's Kitchen because you need W but this seems to be the perfect planeswalker, cc4, can cycle useless cards (synergy with PFire), a fast and perfect ultimate and on top can also kill some stuff if needed. It is possible to squeeze in 1-2 copies of her into the deck (for example cut Sidisi, and use only 3 Sneak Attack).