Never thought THC wasn't good against Miracles, I think Miracles and Elves are where she's best. Anything legendary is automatically good against Miracles, I'd side in Soraya the Falconer if I had one.
I generally find Mentor lists easier to beat than non-Mentor lists because our maindecks run many ways to deal with an early Mentor, whereas an early Jace or a lucky Entreat are harder to answer. Real issue is figuring out how many Mentors their list is running and sideboarding properly. Prelate actually seems great against Mentor because landing Prelate on 1 effectively shuts down any sort of engine and they'll be forced to awkwardly Terminus if they want to get your Chalice off the table.
I'd play a Relic-Warder main if I wanted to hedge against non-blue decks, since the best not-wrecked-by-Prelate decks are either Chalice or Jitte decks (or both) and having a Disenchant main helps a lot. Aluren is also a growing presence and is not a fantastic matchup. Overall I think it's probably better to have a list that just absolutely wrecks Brainstorm decks g1 and to spend more of your sb on the non-blue decks.
I think a one-of Mangara is solid and I'd always rather have one in my 75 than not, it's generally just a space issue. I think in hard control builds of DnT, he's always good. Mangara-lock is a pretty good insurance policy for that wide world of fringe decks, which are also often gonna be Prelate-is-bad matchups.
@Luca Grease
I assume you meant recruiter and not mentor since adding to the miracles discussion was clearly not your intention.
As for the discussion in this thread it is largely the reason I have been absent in discussion for a while. I've been here and reading what people are writing but it's been real bad lately. A lot of wasted discussion calling THC "Frank" as some joke while not providing reasoning why you don't like the card. A lot of anecdotal evidence about personal experience, which can be important but isn't an end all be all argument. A lot of continuing argument about cards that it is clear there is just a fundamental disagreement and conflict of style about, and yet the arguing isn't about reasons it's often just "this card sucks." Or "card is great. Played it and my opponent lost." And then of course there is the discussion about cards that are just not good or playable, but that's at least considering cards or trying to solve a problem the deck has so I'm not so against that.
Overall we're at a time with DnT that is incredible. 2 amazing cards have been added that change everything about the deck and make us rethink everything and all numbers that we have ever had. And yet we're wasting our time on silly discussions and arguments when we need to be trying to find a core list to work from, not just for us, but for new players of DnT. Heck I still don't know if I even am in love with recruiter (definitely like prelate though)! Let's just refocus the discussion, stop concerning ourselves with inside jokes and personal bias (not saying we can't joke just saying it went on a little too long), and instead work towards finding a core list to work from and determine how many recruiters are good or not good in an unknown meta. That seems to be one of the main things we could work on nailing down.
Yes, people were talking about how you need to have Banisher Priest against Miracles to get rid of Mentor since Prelate on 1 will shut down your own plows, but as I said previously, Prelate on 1 means that their Mentor is little more than a Pearled Unicorn. In fact, I don't like Banisher Priest against Miracles because so many of their creatures have ETB effects/haste, increasing the blowout risk already represented by sweepers. I'd rather leave a couple of swords in and possibly Judgement.Originally Posted by iatee
As an aside, I have been able to blow out a miracles player trying to shut down my vials with Containment Priest by Flickerwisping his Mentor. This has happened more than once now, and, considering we now run multiple Caverns, and that they'll often try to fight us by bringing in creatures, there's a pretty good chance that CP will turn into a double-edged sword for them.
@ Marungo: I did, in fact, mean Prelate, and not Recruiter. I'm not sure I understand your comment...
Yeah, Banisher Priest is bad vs Mentor. You want to punish them for the awkwardness between Terminus and Mentor, not make their Terminuses even better.
Oh sorry. I wasn't sure if you were talking about recruiter or prelate. I knew you weren't talking about mentor so I figured you were talking about one of our 3 drops and said mentor since you were talking about miracles, but I wasn't sure which 3 you were talking about and just wanted to clarifyYes, people were talking about how you need to have Banisher Priest against Miracles to get rid of Mentor since Prelate on 1 will shut down your own plows, but as I said previously, Prelate on 1 means that their Mentor is little more than a Pearled Unicorn. In fact, I don't like Banisher Priest against Miracles because so many of their creatures have ETB effects/haste, increasing the blowout risk already represented by sweepers. I'd rather leave a couple of swords in and possibly Judgement.
As an aside, I have been able to blow out a miracles player trying to shut down my vials with Containment Priest by Flickerwisping his Mentor. This has happened more than once now, and, considering we now run multiple Caverns, and that they'll often try to fight us by bringing in creatures, there's a pretty good chance that CP will turn into a double-edged sword for them.
@ Marungo: I did, in fact, mean Prelate, and not Recruiter. I'm not sure I understand your comment...
Personally I usually get a SoFi or Jitte going if I need to answer some number of Monastery Mentor, as they match up well to hit it on your turn when it is less likely for prowess to happen. To be safe I also only board out a small number of swords to plowshares. Lately I really don't mind the miracles match up. New Thalia, Recruiter and Prelate are all great against it as they disrupt Miracles heavily in different ways.
I have gone back up to 2 Mangara given the fact that the format has somewhat slowed down. Mangara was the reason I got into Death and Taxes in the first place and I feel that it is great for the Miracles match up which can be long and grindy to reduce their lands counts. Should we get the lock on then we are less likely to get blown out or beaten by a random Entreat x=4 which will likely just beat us.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488932#online
This list went 7-0 in the latest Legacy challenge (lost in the quarters, though) and 5-0'ed a league afterwards. Most notable are 2x MD Gideon, 24 lands and 3x Armageddon in the SB.
No Recruiter or Prelate yet as they only get released next month via treasure chests.
-I actually 5-0'd the league first and then 7-0'd the swiss rounds of the legacy challenge, so I got up to 12-0 before I lost to Miracles in the quarters.https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/488932#online
This list went 7-0 in the latest Legacy challenge (lost in the quarters, though) and 5-0'ed a league afterwards. Most notable are 2x MD Gideon, 24 lands and 3x Armageddon in the SB.
No Recruiter or Prelate yet as they only get released next month via treasure chests.
-In the swiss rounds, I beat RW Painter, Miracles x3, Storm, Shardless BUG, RUG Delver, and lost to Miracles in the quarter finals.
-The deck very much wants an MD source of card advantage against Miracles and Shardless BUG and MD Gideon does just that.
-Armageddon is the best card against Miracles; Mentor and CounterTop are terrible when they don't have any lands. Cataclysm isn't good enough, it's too easy for them to rebuild with 1 land and top.
-In the quarters, Game 1, my opponent quickly assembled CounterTop, Terminus'd the board, then resolved Mentor (protected by CounterTop). Game 2, I kept a loose 6, Jitte, SoFI, Gideon and 3 lands. On turn 4, I jammed a peeled Phyrexian Revoker since my opponent had Top in play instead of jamming Gideon. My opponent answered the Revoker easily and had the FoW for Gideon next turn after Brainstorming. Definitely should have just jammed Gideon turn 4 or mulled to 5.
-I 4-1'd a few leagues before getting these results. The deck has been crushing the Miracles meta on MODO for me.
Given the dominance of Miracles on MTGO, it seems like a list is well-metagamed for that. What changes would you make to the list once Recruiter and Prelate arrive? Recruiter/Flickerwisp seems like a great way to generate CA similiar to Gideon (although weak to StP in response).
I only play online right now, so I haven't played a game with Prelate. With that said, I will start with:
-2 Gideon, -1 Land
+3 Recruiter of the Guard
-I would include some Caverns in the mana base once Recruiter is released.
-I honestly don't know what Prelate is supposed to be good against. I suppose Prelate and Mom are a good combo against Miracles, but Mom is otherwise strategically terrible against Miracles and Recruiter is already going to make G1 favorable. Post board, I just want to cast Armageddon.
Even the most nostalgic and enthusiastic proponents of Mangara seem to agree that it should be a 1-of now that we have Recruiter. It is not a card you need to jam on turn 3, and it is legendary. That slot is better spent elsewhere.
One of the reasons I've decided to put Mangara back in the main is that it constitutes a catch-all answer that can fill both Banisher Priest and Leonin Relic Warder roles. Obviously, there are times where it will be too slow/vulnerable to act as an effective substitute, but the higher versatility and potential (via lock) make him my preferred choice when I only have 1 maindeck slot...
I run 2 since occasionally 1 gets answered or you need to activate without any way to bounce. That's just my personal preference. I also generally prefer to use recruiter for other cards like both thalias, flickerwisp or revoker.
Oh yes, I do seem to get Prelate and Mentor mixed up all the time for some reason. Probably cause they're both overpowered white 2/2s for 3 with a religious/monastic theme...
I see there being a lot of debate on THC.
I've played her in only about ten rounds of play (as a 3 of or 2 of once I had recruiter). With the small sample size in mind, I maintain the card has been great for me. Vs tribal and other creature decks, she's a game changer (goblins, merfolks, mirror) allowing you to attack into vials and slowing down development. Vs control decks she acts as another threat with karakas, living through -1/-1 effects and severely hampering lands decks. I should add that the only combo deck I've played against has been elves, where she let me steal a match.
I beat SnT with her. It should be noted it was the omni hybrid list and got insanely lucky that he put out Sneak Attack with SnT instead. Literally any other permanent I was cold to.
I went down to 1 main, 1 board. That's where it will stay until I test a Mindcensor in its slot as a 1-of. This seems decent against the mirror and Delver, which I am trying to gain percentage points against, and there is splash damage against Combo.
I went 3-3 at the event. I had a hard time in the mirror, but it was my 5th round ever with the deck. He played manriki and got ahead of me that way.
Played against Infect twice, 2-0ing the first guy and got 0-2ed by the second. I needed to play tighter.
I went 2-1 vs. Miracles. I love this deck. I had 2x Prelate (1, 6), 2x Mom, 4 port in game 3. Hilarious. Won by a mile.
Edit: have any of you tested a luminthread field?
Lumithread Field is the actual name of the card (it took me a few tries to find it). Weird stuff! I had no idea that it existed. What's particularly cool about it is that it even works thru Sulfur Elemental's split second
That's two people I have read writing how effective THC is against Sneak Attack. She is not, actually. Sneak Attack is worded weird in that they can wait a turn and then use it during your End of Turn step as soon as you pass priority if memory serves. Then they just untap as normal and the creature sticks around for their turn.
THC is still the bees knees.
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What's your current list Finn? I can't compromise playing prelate, recruiter, and THC so I'm wondering what you got going on.
This also means that karakas is actually a way you can fight against sneak attack whereas usually they could just put 1 in and then do it again once karakas is tapped.
I'm curious as to why you guys think she (Thalia 2.0) is so good against Miracles. She is not very good against lots of basics and flash creatures as far as I can tell, and an eot Entreat doesn't give a fuck. She's only so-so against mentor, I would prefer to Prelate on one instead.
Also, earlier someone said they were going to play 4 Cavern. This feels terrible. I lost an otherwise winnable game on Sunday because I couldn't find a white source to activate my SFM, but I did draw 2 Caverns. I wouldn't play more than 3 (currently playing 3), and more testing will show if I play less.
And she isn't my knees, bro.
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