[Deck] Imperial Painter

[Kap'n Cook]

I was jammin epic storm on modo while waiting for kaladesh but I got my 2 Chandras now so it's paint time. I'll try to get some video stream going more regularly hopefully next week, but on west coast time. Fuck with me

[zangoasyl]

I was jammin epic storm on modo while waiting for kaladesh but I got my 2 Chandras now so it's paint time. I'll try to get some video stream going more regularly hopefully next week, but on west coast time. Fuck with me

Interesting mana base in your tes deck, but congrats on the results!

Do you plan to switch nahiri for Chandra or do you go for both?

[CptHaddock]

I was jammin epic storm on modo while waiting for kaladesh but I got my 2 Chandras now so it's paint time. I'll try to get some video stream going more regularly hopefully next week, but on west coast time. Fuck with me

[GundamGuy]

I'll +1 what Morcrux and Ringo said and give my 2 cents as well. I think that one of the biggest misnomers that newer players have about Imperial Painter is that it's a prison deck with this random combo thrown in there. As silly as this sounds one of the biggest breakthroughs that I had when I started playing this deck was realizing that we are a combo deck and not some janky prison deck. The lock pieces help us combo off by prevent some portion of the opponent's gameplan.

If you haven't i'd read Seth's posts about the deck here and here. I think they're very informative and they really helped me understand the deck.

Isn't that basically the gameplan of a prison deck?

Just picking a little. I know what you mean, and yeah Painter was never exactly in the same camp as Stax or Lands. The main point is that the Mono-Red version was/is good when the lock pieces are stronger because the game plan is basically combo quick against decks with no disruption, or play a lock piece (Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, etc...) to prevent the opponents game plan. As those lock pieces cover less of the meta additional efforts have to be made to close the door on people which is why RW which is better at finding the exact card you need is good even though it has more mana color issues and card disadvantage issues.

I've been out of the game for a good 9-12 months (though I did play side events at GP DC, and won a good few matches (about 6) with a janky Mono-Red build with Wastelands.) so I'm not going to jump in suggesting builds right now, but a quick look at the decks to beat has me pretty optimistic that a good version of painter can be built right now.

Onto control, it's only controlling when you land a painter. If you find yourself playing against a lot of abrupt decays, which from my experience is in the majority of the decks do to counterbalance, you'll never keep painter on the field.

Painter really isn't in the deck to be a control all-star, I think you are approaching this wrong. Yes you get one mana instant speed vindicate that can also counter spells when you have a painter on Blue, but I don't think you should play most matches seeing painter as a control piece. The real strength of REB and Pyroblast is that Blue is the most prominent color in legacy, not that you can turn everything blue and go to town (that's just a plus). Most decks with Abrupt decay (not fast combo which you have to approach differently) you should first lock the door with Blood moon or Magus of the Moon then combo with painter, or force them to spend their abrupt decays on Blood moons or Magus of the Moons.

It is entirely possible to win off of a single Magus of the Moon vs. some decks. With the Magus locking them out all the cards in their deck and dealing them 20. That said I'm not sure if Magus is in the good camp or bad camp right now, it varies based on the make up of the meta.

[Jungian Thing]

I played my bling shortcake on the weekend, frankly it is hard not to play anything else… I was close to slinging Death and Taxes but I flipped a coin and was relieved when it came up painter. I painted the LGS in a bi-weekly tournament that is proxy friendly which gives the gang (15 this weekend) an opportunity to try out some decks less travelled. Not me. I don’t play proxies… In my painter deck, I don’t play unblinged cards either, this makes the card pool less flexible than most. I am playing shortcake with some retro cards but it is listing an LED and a few other things. Honestly, I am not convinced that at my standard the fine tuning makes much of a difference.

I went 3-1 ID’ing on the fifth for a locked out top 4 and then lost there. Here is the report.

Match 1 (2-1) 12 Posts
Game 1
Why? I look around and there really is only one other player on Sneak and Show that I would least want on my first round. I had played him a couple of weeks before and got my combo out and he extended his hand in concession before I set it off. I accepted and then asked if I could see his deck and he obliged. It contained Emrakul. He was not going to make that mistake again. My game plan is simple. Blood Moon and then drift some red weenies his way. This is pretty much how game one rolls. They all come out to chip in, painter, welder, recruiters chaining. It’s a cinderella story!! I can’t believe it and my hands don’t stop shaking.

Game 2
I board bridge, crypts and RIP. I don’t get a moon and whilst I keep a hand with painter and Crypt, I see no GS but I build a bridge and he eventually naturally casts an Emrakul with Karakas in play for infinite turns. He tells me how is going to beat me. I am unimpressed and ask him to show me the cards that he thinks will get Emmy around a bridge, and yep he has them.

Game 3
I keep the board and go with a hand containing a magus that comes down turn two and the red weenie drift commences! Painter and Magus take a further 7 turns to smack face and I do have the combo ready on the final turn but I go with the safer “kill you” option as opposed to the “you die” one that I normally prefer.


I win!!! And it feels like I am playing a really bad Death and Taxes which is even better. He tells me after that he is building Miracles *ugh*

Match 2 (0-2) Grixis

Game 1
God Damn! He has an answer to everything and wastes my AT. I am so countered that I check his GY for the fifth FoW I am sure just dropped my whatever. He summons a Big Fish and whilst I am on 18, I have only one mountain on the field and I am hellbent. The fish and a gobshite draining me are clearly going to finish me so I concede rather than putting myself through it.

Game 2
This was epic. Possibly the best game of the day. I have a slowly developing board and am one turn, ONE TURN!!! from grinding him as I sit behind my bridge but a couple of previous hits from delver and me playing too fast and too loose with Ancient Tomb puts me in bolt distance and he does.

Match 3 (2-1) Stax

Game 1
I thought I was sitting across from an esper or DnT but an early combo grinds him before I really know what is happening. A few artifacts hit the field. MUD? Affinity?

Game 2
I don’t sideboard. STAX!!!! I can’t get the grind on but turn sideways with red weenies. I have him on 3 and really think I am in when the whole thing goes backwards. Smokestack and Tangle Wire or is it tangle wire and smokestack? He rubs it in that he chooses stack order and he wants it Smokestack and then Tangle Wire. I am incredulous not knowing the full transcript of rule 603. He suggests I can call a judge if I want. He doesn't, but I hear him add, "you ignorant fuck" to it. The whole thing is delivered in just the right way to put me on the tilt. I loose everything and roll my eyes as I extend my hand with a life total of 17. There is no way out. I quip that I really don’t know how to deal with that and he glibly replies that I just need to get an early grind on.

Game 3
Manic Vandal in. I get an early grind on. Turn 2 kill. two tombs, painter and GS. He smiles and says “see!” (you ignorant fuck).

This match up really threw me and I am still thinking about it. What to board? What to Stony Silence? Aura of Silence? Ancient Grudge? Shatter Storm?

Match 4 Esper (2-0)

Game 1
God, I don’t know what happened here. Turn 2 grind. He does get to fetch…

Game 2
My first painter is sent farming. Turn 4 grind. He gets to fetch again.

Round 5 we ID into top four.

Top 4 (0-2)
I am in second place so I am on the play. I know I am against Grixis Delver.

Game 1
I mull to 5 looking for the perfect hand. He does what Grixis does and I have no answers. I concede having been locked out by no lands and a big fish from him with gobshite draining me.

Game 2
Rinse repeat.

I am not sure what happened here. I really think painter is a shoe in on Grixis but the two rounds I lose are just that. Could it be my confidence is such that I take too many risks? I will need to jam more delver games and get back to you.

[L10]

My success vs. Grixis is directly proportional to the number of Fiery Confluence I sideboard in. It usually wipes the board + kill an annoying artifact. It's also not rare for me to just kill them with Fiery Confluence.

[CptHaddock]

A pretty cool looking painter list went 5-0. What do you guys think?

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
4 Blood Moon
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 City of Traitors
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
4 Grindstone
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magus of the Moon
5 Mountain
4 Painter's Servant
2 Plateau
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Firebolt
2 Koth of the Hammer
3 Kozilek's Return
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Rest in Peace
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

Game 1
I mull to 5 looking for the perfect hand. He does what Grixis does and I have no answers. I concede having been locked out by no lands and a big fish from him with gobshite draining me.

Game 2
Rinse repeat.

I am not sure what happened here. I really think painter is a shoe in on Grixis but the two rounds I lose are just that. Could it be my confidence is such that I take too many risks? I will need to jam more delver games and get back to you.

This sounds like the majority of matchups that I have had against Grixis, i've lost more matches that actually matter to Grixis than to any other delver deck. The matches I win feel more like my opponents doing silly things like not keeping a hand with force against a turn 1 blood moon deck or them bringing in blasts against me and having 4 completely useless cards postboard.

[Jimbrewersbro]

I kinda love the list. I have been running something similar, but with only two bridges and two Chandra main. It offers a nice secondary win condition of sitting behind a bridge and going for the emblem. I am intrigued by the idea of running three each main, it looks like at the expense of some welders. The only slight concern is the mana curve went up and there are still only 19 lands. Seems like that could lead to screw more often.

[drude1]

Yeah, very interesting list. The biggest issue I would have is that it looks like an absolute dog to any deck that isn't turning creatures sideways for the win. This deck is definitely built more for creature based decks like delver, eldrazi and death and taxes. Game one is almost auto-loss to Storm, Sneak and Show (with Omniscience), oops all spells etc. This is a deck where I would at least play one copy of Canonist or Revoker or some sort of combo hate main or you really have no chance. Obviously he has some of that in the board so things get better post-board. But then do you side out the chandras in those MUs? Probably does have a pretty good MU against Miracles though with 5 Planeswalkers though.

[Jimbrewersbro]

Yeah, very interesting list. The biggest issue I would have is that it looks like an absolute dog to any deck that isn't turning creatures sideways for the win. This deck is definitely built more for creature based decks like delver, eldrazi and death and taxes. Game one is almost auto-loss to Storm, Sneak and Show (with Omniscience), oops all spells etc. This is a deck where I would at least play one copy of Canonist or Revoker or some sort of combo hate main or you really have no chance. Obviously he has some of that in the board so things get better post-board. But then do you side out the chandras in those MUs? Probably does have a pretty good MU against Miracles though with 5 Planeswalkers though.

I agree, but the regular short cake lists have the same issue. I see very few running canonist main deck. Even then its only one piece of hate main against combo.

[CptHaddock]

I agree, but the regular short cake lists have the same issue. I see very few running canonist main deck. Even then its only one piece of hate main against combo.

Imo if you're playing a list close to what Jack has been playing (LED, 3 tutors) you can race combo pretty decently (barring show and tell because that matchup is still terrible) so the extra combo hate is nice but not entirely needed. I don't think we're beating the faster combo decks e.g. tes, belcher, tinfins and oops that much barring an asteroid hitting our opponent game 1 anyways.

[drude1]

Imo if you're playing a list close to what Jack has been playing (LED, 3 tutors) you can race combo pretty decently (barring show and tell because that matchup is still terrible) so the extra combo hate is nice but not entirely needed. I don't think we're beating the faster combo decks e.g. tes, belcher, tinfins and oops that much barring an asteroid hitting our opponent game 1 anyways.

This is exactly my point. This list is running 3 bridge and 3 Planeswalkers that really do nothing against combo. The standard list is just going to be that much faster as to sometimes race other combo decks. Having said that, I actually do still run 1 x Canonist in the main for combo (great against storm, high tide, elves, oops, blecher, etc).


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[mcbain]

Painter is a combo deck - in game 1. Many times we are forced to either abandon or modify this plan for games two and three for strategies which are "immune" or "resistant" to our general combo. Emerkul comes to mind for many.

I believe miracles fits into this category as well.

Local meta's aside, at any significant legacy tournament Miracles will be a top tier competitive deck. I feel that the current approach is not enough for a painter player to reasonably win a 6 round legacy event. After sideboard a miracles player will bring an armada of removal and interaction for our plan and simply grind the painter player into dust. Swords, ware/tear, terminus, snapcaster, Mentor, counterbalance, etc. etc. A painter player trying to "go under" this game plan is just foolhardy.

I believe jack has built the foundation for the best approach to this. Sulfur elemental's, Adjani's/nahiri's, lightning bolt's, as well as the typical gamut of hedge-mage among others. I believe the next approach is go one step further, for all intents and purposes, a transformation sideboard.

-4 painter servant
-4 grindstone

The thesis is to go combo-less and force your opponent to play around it while executing a much more robust and sustainable game plan. Let their removal and interaction rot.

Play a better long game then them.

I still am playing around with cards as potential options but thus far would be interested in:

2-3 sulfur elemental
3-4 plainswalkers (2 new chandra, 2 adjani)
1-2 hedge-mage
3-4 lightning bolt
0-1 plains (your 20th land)

**This also provides a strong base for games against Death and Taxes and delver match ups (although the combo is there fine there - this plan might be stronger).**

I would post a list, but at this point is not about the list, its about the idea of how to approach certain match ups.

[Kap'n Cook]

Painter is a combo deck - in game 1. Many times we are forced to either abandon or modify this plan for games two and three for strategies which are "immune" or "resistant" to our general combo. Emerkul comes to mind for many.

I believe miracles fits into this category as well.

Local meta's aside, at any significant legacy tournament Miracles will be a top tier competitive deck. I feel that the current approach is not enough for a painter player to reasonably win a 6 round legacy event. After sideboard a miracles player will bring an armada of removal and interaction for our plan and simply grind the painter player into dust. Swords, ware/tear, terminus, snapcaster, Mentor, counterbalance, etc. etc. A painter player trying to "go under" this game plan is just foolhardy.

I believe jack has built the foundation for the best approach to this. Sulfur elemental's, Adjani's/nahiri's, lightning bolt's, as well as the typical gamut of hedge-mage among others. I believe the next approach is go one step further, for all intents and purposes, a transformation sideboard.

-4 painter servant
-4 grindstone

The thesis is to go combo-less and force your opponent to play around it while executing a much more robust and sustainable game plan. Let their removal and interaction rot.

Play a better long game then them.

I still am playing around with cards as potential options but thus far would be interested in:

2-3 sulfur elemental
3-4 plainswalkers (2 new chandra, 2 adjani)
1-2 hedge-mage
3-4 lightning bolt
0-1 plains (your 20th land)

**This also provides a strong base for games against Death and Taxes and delver match ups (although the combo is there fine there - this plan might be stronger).**

I would post a list, but at this point is not about the list, its about the idea of how to approach certain match ups.

So I agree about parts of your post, but for the general miracles strategy I don't. Boarding out the combo is not the best course of action to beat them, mainly since we are not set up to be a premier aggro or control deck aka we run a lot of really bad cards that are only good when they are together. Taking out the combo leaves you with what, like 4 recruiters some welders, and random planeswalkers to try to deal them 20 damage. Rather, the combo lets you attack from multiple angles and frankly is sometimes the only way to escape weak board states. The combo facilitates the beatdown by hamstringing them. So many times I have forced them to do something because I have painter/stone out with mana ready to go but not activating it while i keep attacking with dorks. This leads to even trades on card advantage, which then clears the way for walkers or another painter to close it out. I'll go into how I'm boarding in a second. Plus Grindstone can screw up their balance and guard against fateseal. I wouldn't ever side it out.

For the parts I agree with, the general sideboard construction you are talking about is where I am currently heading. This is what I am playing, with some good results (two 4-1 leagues)

3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger

It sets up nicely vs DnT which I know is huge in paper, nice against miracles, and has enough removal for 4c delver. Those are the three main pillars, and the numbers translate nicely into the boarding. With this setup, I have chosen to face ANT as mainly a race, also because even before that thorn didn't really do much to stall them, Eldrazi and Miracles keep it in check, and thorn was only being used in a few matchups. Miser's crypt is the least used card, but is totally necessary.

Anyways, for Miracles I have usually been siding in the 3 bolts, hedge, 2 sulfur, 4 walker, 2nd bridge. That is a lot to bring out, but it is actually a very clean transition that keeps the combo in: 3 petal, 1 led, 3 tutor, 4 moon. Yes, it is slower, but the change in card quality for us helps us have a stronger mid-game that can fight through their plethora of removal. Actual walker breakdown I'm still less sure about, but with the boarding out of the moons sadly we can't play Koth. It's really a competition between Ajani, Chandra, and Nahiri, the optimal split will need to be worked on. Just my two cents.

And yes, I don't have a Magus in the 75 and I still feel queasy every match knowing I don't have access to one.

Edit: now that I think more about it in the morning, I think I've been leaving one tutor in against miracles rather than bringing the second bridge in

[CptHaddock]

How'd all the folks that ended up going to EE end up doing? I ended up going 2-3 drop losing to grixis delver, UR omnitell (His apes were bigger than my apes) and infect. All the matchups felt winnable. I think I could have mulligan'd a little more aggressively to sideboard cards but ended up keeping hands that didn't really align with what my opponents did e.g. kept an ensnaring bridge hand against the pyromancer draw from grixis and kept a hand with a single burn spell against the infect player who just played a bunch of creatures out on his first few turns.

It looked like there were a fair number of painter players, round 1 I sat next to 2 of them and I saw a couple more walking around watching matches. Had a bunch of people also tell me that they were 4 recruiters away from building painter which is always good.

[L10]

I was at EE as well, playing mono-red Painter. I won vs. 12-Post, Grixis Delver, Maverick, 8 Thalia Eldrazi Stompy, and Burn (first time ever). Lost vs. Burn, Omni, and Dragon Stompy. I am not going to write a tournament report because frankly, I have a terrible memory, and I forgot my notebook for note taking. :( I can, however, give my impressions.

I had resolved Chandra seven times yesterday and won six of them (even once vs. Burn), three times from the ultimate (once with double Top). I lost to Ace on Dragon Stompy, but he mentioned if I was more aggressive with Chandra -3, she may have won me the game. I only won four matches with Grindstone. The rest involved a combination Chandra burn, Jaya burn, 1/x + 2/x beats, Rabblemaster, or Fiery Confluence to the face.

Filigree was able to net me six life vs. Burn and traded with Guide once.

This was the deck I was on: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-09...o-red-painter/
This was the SB strat I was on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...q-JPIyNX0/edit

Filigree was cute and did work, but was never a tutor target I was actively looking for. So it falls in the category of win-more. I may swap it out for a second Rabblemaster in the SB.

Thanks to Mapson and G le p for your feedbacks!

PS: I think the threat of combo has won me more game than actually comboing off. In my opinion, and from my own experience, Imperial Painter is a prison deck first and a combo deck second.

[Kap'n Cook]

Imperial Painter is a prison deck first and a combo deck second.

😫😫😫

[L10]

I tend to find the Painter + Grindstone combo unreliable and easily disrupted. The ability to win out of nowhere is fantastic, and I think the inherent synergy/utility that both Painter and Grindstone provides makes this deck great. But a lot of times, all you need is a Grey Ogre to win the game, which is why I am partial to mono-red. I started playing Painter with Shortcake. It also had to do with person style and physilosophy. I still think Shortcake is strong, but is not how I want to approach the game.

[mcbain]

Jack, firstly I agree with each of your points but struggle to agree with the whole - similar to your comment about my post. My goal currently is to explore alternative paradigms to the match up, specifically the sideboard match up. I simply find executing a game plan against a deck with a seemingly infinite amount of removal and interaction to be the literal definition of insanity.

Taking out the combo leaves you with what, like 4 recruiters some welders, and random planeswalkers to try to deal them 20 damage.

Yes, this is true. Our opponent will die to a sulfur elemental and goblin welder. In many match ups a miracles deck will side out most of their win conditions simply because it doesn't matter and gets in the way of the game plan. This is no different.

Rather, the combo lets you attack from multiple angles and frankly is sometimes the only way to escape weak board states. The combo facilitates the beatdown by hamstringing them.

Again, yes. However our multiple angles are quickly become one big angle which our opponent has covered off with removal.

Plus Grindstone can screw up their balance and guard against fateseal. I wouldn't ever side it out.

I hate grindstoning a miracles player. Give you cards to snapcaster, clear your deck of lands - essentially a punisher mechanic. Fate seal, sure there is that.


My long-game approach to miracles attempts:

1. maintain a strong early game due to keeping acceleration in (4 lotus, 1 SSG) to allow for early protected planeswalkers, blood moons.
2. help keep "red mana up" while developing our board and stave off slightly aggressive miracles players who could land an early CB.
3. improve our blood moon game against them by keeping petals and boarding in a plains to allow us to cast our white mana bombs while locking out their mana, shuffle effects, and flexibility.
4. improve our anti-plains plan by playing blood moons and adjani (and points 1 and 2) a painter player can set up situations more easily wherein a miracles player looses access to white mana, severely hurting their ability to interact.
5. After sideboard WE become the better top deck. Through a combination of welder, planeswalkers, and 4x top's we can out draw our opponent.

I could maybe see leaving 1 of each in for the combo but I really tired of trying to overwhelm the best deck in the format by seemingly playing right into it.

I agree with your assessment of the pillars of a paper format from a perspective which we care about - Miracles, delver, and DnT. I would add one caveat for me, storm, but it seems to be somewhat regional. Decks like Eldrazi do put up the numbers but are not worth our consideration on account of our overwhelming cards like blood moon, painter and bridge.

On a final note I feel the pyroclasm spot is between fiery confluence, pyrokenesis, and pyroclasm - largely preference, meta, and finer deck synergy.

[CptHaddock]

Jack, firstly I agree with each of your points but struggle to agree with the whole - similar to your comment about my post. My goal currently is to explore alternative paradigms to the match up, specifically the sideboard match up. I simply find executing a game plan against a deck with a seemingly infinite amount of removal and interaction to be the literal definition of insanity.

Yes, this is true. Our opponent will die to a sulfur elemental and goblin welder. In many match ups a miracles deck will side out most of their win conditions simply because it doesn't matter and gets in the way of the game plan. This is no different.
Again, yes. However our multiple angles are quickly become one big angle which our opponent has covered off with removal.

I hate grindstoning a miracles player. Give you cards to snapcaster, clear your deck of lands - essentially a punisher mechanic. Fate seal, sure there is that.

Fwiw, miracles used to be a match I really struggled against but now i've found that it's a lot easier to play against. I can understand the frustration, it's really aggravating sometimes when you do everything in your power to win but your opponent just has all the right answers at the right time. I've started approaching this matchup like we're a combo/control deck with the most important cards in this matchup being top, grindstone and obviously blasts. Top allows us to play a longer game and filter through garbage. I think that most of the games that I lose against miracles are games where I run out of gas and have to rely on topdecks, top really helps to mitigate this. Grindstone is just a way that we can interact with them either through or counterbalance lock or screwing up their miracles triggers. Blasts are pretty self explanatory. Postboard is the same thing but i'm more willing to keep hands with some of my sideboard cards substituted for a couple of those core pieces.

I really don't aggressively grindstone in this matchup unless i'm under the impression that my opponent is attempting to set up a miracles, they reveal something that I don't want them to have or (very rarely) I feel like I can't keep up with the card advantage they are getting from a predict. Turn 1 moon is pretty solid too when you're on the play but I would not rely on that only on the draw/postboard. The biggest point is that you just have to keep a counterbalance off the table, every other threat that they play is arbitrary. From what i've seen most miracles players shave some number of entreats because of how clunky they end up being and bring in cards like clique and venser as slightly less clunky win conditions. Sometimes we just don't get hands that align well with what they're doing and just lose e.g. getting the blast heavy hand against the mentor draw.

Imo the best alternative gameplan to miracles is planeswalkers, in general (minus counterspells) there are a lot fewer ways for miracles players to actually interact with planeswalkers. I think that you can make a case for a more aggressive plan with some combination of the rabblemaster effects but imo their deck is very well equipped to deal with that when we don't play cotv like the moon stompy decks do.

My long-game approach to miracles attempts:

1. maintain a strong early game due to keeping acceleration in (4 lotus, 1 SSG) to allow for early protected planeswalkers, blood moons.
2. help keep "red mana up" while developing our board and stave off slightly aggressive miracles players who could land an early CB.
3. improve our blood moon game against them by keeping petals and boarding in a plains to allow us to cast our white mana bombs while locking out their mana, shuffle effects, and flexibility.
4. improve our anti-plains plan by playing blood moons and adjani (and points 1 and 2) a painter player can set up situations more easily wherein a miracles player looses access to white mana, severely hurting their ability to interact.
5. After sideboard WE become the better top deck. Through a combination of welder, planeswalkers, and 4x top's we can out draw our opponent.

I could maybe see leaving 1 of each in for the combo but I really tired of trying to overwhelm the best deck in the format by seemingly playing right into it.

I think that this is where our strategies differ. I think that giving up some portion of the early game is fine because it gives us time to setup our later turns. I usually shave some amount of moon, fast mana and e-tutors for sideboard cards that are just better. What we get from the sideboard is just way better than what we're boarding out. Minus the planeswalkers I don't really think there are very many big threats that we can slam early that single handedly win us the game. You can probably make an argument for blood moon but postboard most miracles players will more than likely keep hands that can interact with it in some capacity. Postboard you basically just force your opponent to deal with so many different angles to attack i.e. the combo, planeswalkers and creature beatdowns that you can force them to awkwardly dig for an answer.

On a final note I feel the pyroclasm spot is between fiery confluence, pyrokenesis, and pyroclasm - largely preference, meta, and finer deck synergy.

In agreement here, I think right now you can probably make an argument for any of the burn/board wipes. The big caveat on fiery confluence is that you're trying to resolve a 4 cmc card in a format full of wastelands, ports and dazes/spell pierces so there will be times that you lose to not being able to cast your boardsweeper on time. Otherwise I think it's a card with a pretty high ceiling and having modal stuff in red is always a plus.

I tend to find the Painter + Grindstone combo unreliable and easily disrupted. The ability to win out of nowhere is fantastic, and I think the inherent synergy/utility that both Painter and Grindstone provides makes this deck great. But a lot of times, all you need is a Grey Ogre to win the game, which is why I am partial to mono-red. I started playing Painter with Shortcake. It also had to do with person style and physilosophy. I still think Shortcake is strong, but is not how I want to approach the game.

I've found the opposite, I think we're surprisingly resilient. This is all hyperbole but I think that I don't think that i've won any of my recent matches with creature beatdown. Between the pyromancers, mentors and other white weenies it's just something that is getting hard to do. Almost all of which outclass most of the crappy creatures that we play minus painter (1/3 ) so it's a lot easier focusing on the combo than it is actually trying to win via creature beatdown. In the end though sometimes you gotta send harambe into the redzone and show your opponent you mean business. Just my 2 cents though.