Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
Hey Olaf i completley understand your reaction. But also give him credits for having the balls to try something. Its obvious that peole try new aproaches for the deck. Like Sandro,s list with the three Aerwigs. I'am verry curious if its gonna work, but the fact is lackey is terrible vs a lot of decks and in the combo match it just might be to Slow.
So i think he deserves credits for trying it but i dont know if he's trying it in the Right shell. I'am gonna try it myself for sure but not by replacing it with auntie but replacing it with another skirk for speed and More chances to drop aerwig turn 2 with sandros list. Witch kills or at least slows down some combo decks.
Verry curious for your resultaten jonsey
thanx for the replies.
Olaf: im just trying new aproaches, and until now the lack of 1 lackey it seems not that bad, but im still testing. Damn, didnt remember of deathrite, wort migth be terrible also.
Dissy: i also thougth of putting a 2nd prospector instead of a 4cmc, but in the local store there are usually 3 BUG decks in 12 players, so a 4cmc migth be better. until now the results without one Lackey and one 4cmc extra where this:
Infect, Won 2-1
BUG delver, Lost 2-0, Won 2-0, Won 2-1, Won 2-0 (The lost i had first game , i was mana screw, and the secon was mana flood. The second games i won just because of Blood Moon)
Dredge, Lost 2-0 (second game, mull to 4 because of no lands)
Eldrazi, Won 2-1 (2ng game, i was overrun by a bus, and 3rd game was an epic battle)
my local gaming store is small, and the players vary from 8 to 14.
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another small tournament, 3 rounds, only 8 players.
Infect on play: Won 2-1
BUG Delver on play: Won 2-1
Omnishow on draw: Won 2-0
Against infect 1st game, Siege Gang from Lackey won me the game.
Against Bug, 3rd game wasteland from top, cut mana for abrupt decay, blood moon won me the game again.
Against Omnishow, 1st game was a race with Lackey and Cavern on starting hand, 2nd Game Containment Priest and wasteland and ports won me the game.
Note: i choose Siege Gang for second bomb, and kept 4 mountains
Note: the only main lackey was against Omnishow
Again didn't miss the 4th Lackey, but the starting hand against Omnishow with Lackey gave me victory
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Haven't touched Goblins in a couple of years now, but I'm curious to learn how it is positioned in the metagame right now. Show and Tell and Storm appear practically vanished from the metagame and Elves does not see a lot of play. Last time I checked Miracles was a relatively positive matchup, Delver seems beatable and I believe the deck could be tuned to have a positive matchup against Eldrazi. Death and Taxes is also a positive matchup with enough removal and Lands can be easily beat after boarding in some good cards.
I was contemplating creating a list that plays a lot of creature hate to beat Eldrazi and D&T. Something along the lines of 4 Bolt, 4 Warren Weirding and 4 Gemplam Incinerator. The Weirdings seem good against Eldrazi and also reasonable against D&T if they have Mom out. Bolts are probably necessary to slow the game down enough for the cardadvantage to matter. Then I was thinking about Goblin Dark-dwellers or maybe Wort, Boggart Auntie to recur the Bolts and Weirdings and keep the table clear in the lategame. If you can keep the table clear, Dark-dwellers is even unblockable.
Postboard I think we have some great options now that we do not have to worry about dedicating our entire SB to Storm and S&T anymore.
So basically, I have two discussion points:
1. Does anyone have experience with a similar build that I am referring to?
2. Is Goblins well positioned right now or should I stay away from it?
Team R&D
1. I once tried a list that ran 4 Bolts, 2 Warren Weirding, and 2 Gempalms, and I discovered if I am going to run a Non-Goblin kill spell it needs to be able to kill a Goyf (and now a days I'd imagine Gurmag as well). Swords to Plowshares, or Dismember simply sound better in that vein.
2. It's actually fine right now. You will have to get used to running into simply more powerful cards than you, but the deck's synergy makes up for it. Give a read to the front page's primer, it's up to date, and has some mention of the Decks to Beat.
Other notes:
Death and Taxes is close, it really depends on sideboard configurations between both decks. If they have Absolute Law and Kor Firewalker you're gonna have a bad time. Each Shatter / Pithing Needle beyond the first that you run moves the needle like 3% in your favor.
Eldrazi is actually rather positive for Waste / Port builds. Especially with Pyrokinesis to handle Thought-Knot Seer. See my Signiture for some of the decks statistics I'm compiling. "Legacy Goblins Records"
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
Our Discord
Hello goblin players,
I'am trying out a verry weird goblin deck build inspired on sandro's RB list.
The reason that iam trying this is because i hate loosing to permanents we cant destroy or big removal spells.
The tought behind this build is to remove them before they can play those permanents or other nasty cards.
lands:
6 red fetches
3 badlands
4 wastelands
4 mounrains
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
4 Aeter vial
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Aerwig Squads
3 Mogg war marshall
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren weirding
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk scrapper
1 Krenko Mobb Boss
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire
Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cabal therapy
1 Surgical extractio
1 Pithing needle
1 Rakdos charm
3 Blood moon
2 Faerie macabre
2 Pyrikonesis
The idea behind the deck is to battle combo my meta has a big amount of combo.
And i know lackey is good vs combo because they cant block it and you can ad a free goblin to the clock sometimes.
But a turn 2/3 Aerwig Squad vs combo decks is priceless. Aerwig can hit a lot of nasty cards.
Mirracles: Entreat the Angels, Jace, Mentor
Storm: Tendrills, Empty the Warrens
Elves: Craterhoof, emrakul, progenitus
Omnisience:omniscience, emrakul
Enchantress: worship, solitary confignment
Painter: Grindstone
Bug: I would take out the Goyfs
Lands: Dark depths, punishing fire
Maverick: Dark Depths / Knight of the reliquary
Death and Taxes: Equipments
And there are probably a lot more cards you would like to remove from a players deck
So the idea behind the decks is to slow them down or wreck them early and than overwhelm them with card advanatage.
We can slow them down with the early Aerwig Squad and besides his ability he is also a 5/3 body wich isnt that bad either.
And yes i do realise that i have no lackeys in the deck anymore.
But i have had him as a bad topdeck so many times that i would like to try something new.
The sideboard isnt that special for a goblin deck, the only thing i would like to say is that skirk can also help with early bloodmoons after boarding.
At least i would not say this the answer to all our problems, but i think its worth a try.
I will keep you guys posted on match results. If you have any comment or ideas about this list please let me know.
I like this in theory. I assume this is what you were testing when we ran into each other on XMage? If you go full tilt on making Earwig Squad work, I would imagine that Frogtosser Banneret was literally designed with this in mind.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
Our Discord
I love Earwig and think the plan has the potential to cripple some combo opponents, especially storm opponents who think they can take their time with you. Keep in mind though that a single Earwig only removes 3 cards, and only from the library. Cards like Punishing Fire and Dark Depths are typically 4-of and can hide in the graveyard or hand to avoid Earwig. Even with 3 copies exiled, there are tutor effects for the 4th copy.
Make sure you know how many copies of each card the decks usually run so you can guess whether of the card you intend to hit is already in their hand.
Hey Olaf that is true, i was Running this list to bad i got disconnected. You are Right about the frogtosser. But not sure what i take out for it i dont think there is room fora frogtosser. Festering goblin might also be a possible Card in this build. A deathrite,stoneforge, mom, thalia , mimic, delver etc wont Block him that fast.
@sockosensei: I do realise that it takes out only 3. But that slows down a lot. And not All the combo decks play 4 cards that you Have to remove. And of course they can Have a combo Card in hand already. But that is Magic;) (storm does not want the tendrils in there opener, because of discard drs shenenigans).
Also looking true a deck can give u a big advantage, so its not terrible vs non-combo you can even take out mana or Big creature vs rug for example u can remove half of theire duals or a goyf . So when he lands he's never bad. I probably going to try to fit in a fourth Aerwig Squad. He's the only answer we have vs combo so why not abuse him? Besides that he is also a 5/3 for 3 mana.
Last thing i wanna change is add pyrokinesis to the main.
So that is the idea. Now a couple of questions
- what about no lackey in this build
- how can i fit benneret in here i dont wanna replace him with warchief.
- how can i fit festering goblin in here (for example it could replace mogg war marshall
- what do you guys think that the problematic match ups will be with this list?
And i know People will hate me for not playing lackey. But since wizards dit not give us a playable goblin since krenko came out, we have to think outside the box.
Please Tell me your thoughts and Fire your questions.
hi dissy.
like the idea. i tried something similar two years back, but it was mono black goblins. i loved it, it had all the tools to remove combo and other cards, it was very very power when worked, the downsides about it are: weak against fair decks, they have lots of removal, and initial blockers, discard will ruin your plan, without lackey you wont be able to lower Matron to get Earwig. for that to work i would suggest go "more agro" with 1 or 2 "Squeaking Pie Sneak" and/or "Prickly Boggart" cause that way you will connect more often against fair decks, but playing like this it would be a bit like merfolk play. i never tried to tweek that ideia, but may have legs, against some decks.
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[QUOTE=Olaf Forkbeard;972756]Just to keep the thread moving, some random things I've had on my mind.
I'm just going to run Surgical Extraction for Reanimator as it has enough text in other matches. My win-rate went up quite a bit when I added 2 to my board. It has far more impact than Grafdigger's, and that's saying something.
I once again moved 2 Pyrokinesis to the main
I tried crypts and relics for graveyard hate, but I have found Leyline of the void best if you can find them with aggressive mulligans. I like surgical extraction as well but only have 3-4 slots for yard hate in my sideboard. What is considered the best yard hate given that we have to battle reanimator and dredge decks at times? Leylines even without a black splash?
as for pyrokinesis in the main board, I always play 3 and they are great for sweeping a path clear for lackeys.
Mono Black is not option for me, goblins Without lackey deels weird. Goblins Without ringleader and matron Sounds impossible;). If you wanna play a disruptive deck like that i advise pox;)
true you loose the card advantage because the lack of ringleador but you have the scary boggart mob that puts a lot of pressure, lackey is unreplaceble, but you have the black matron (harbinger) not the same off course. the only thing that i really missed then, was the lack of haste for all goblins, and card filtering to speed up the game (dindt had top, it would help), and the goblin to hand matron. the deck was very slow, had a lot of sinergies trought goblins, but only had trades 1 for 1. it was too powefull against combo, but too week against a lot of pressure against creatures, it was fun thought, but not competitive. for fun, maybe ill build one again for kitchen table
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Yes that would be my thoughts as well, mono black goblins fine for kitchen table games but that's it the goblins you suggest are fun for casual play but i would never replace matron by that boggart;). Iam trying to build a competitive R/B goblin deck. I like the fact that skirk with aerwig can kill a combo deck in turn 3 or even 2 besides that the skirk can do insane things later in the game. For example in combination with sharpshooter en krenko mobb boss it can be a combo kill. besides that you can play a turn 2 bloodmoon if you drop the skirk turn 1 you can also do it via vial turn 1 vial in skirk turn 2 sac him and tap 2 mana for blood moon. So there are a lot of synergies. like with turn 1 skirk and turn 2 mogg warmarshall you can also play a turn 2 krenko wich feels like cheating when fighting combo decks.
The sideboard completes the combo hate plan while also having some hate vs creatures: rakdos charm/engineered plague/pyrikonesis.
Iam verry curious what the deck would do in like 100 games. I played a couple of games vs. mirracles and they dont stand a chance. Somehow iam favorable vs storm now as well specially after board.
Elves is also becoming easier. The delver decks become a bit harder where we use the have a fairly good mu its getting tougher know because of goyf and friends and no lackey to cheat in creatures.
The decks to beat: (these are my thoughts not facts, i will playtest a lot and keep u guys updated, if you dont agree please let me know)
Storm: a lot more changes than with traditional list, mainboard hate and the board is build to kill it with GY hate and discard spells
Mirracles: a verry good match up they dont stand a chance unless you are really unlucky
Shardless: Hard mu goyf, shardless agent, liliana, deathrite shaman they are all problems (but when u land krenko the game is over) and if you survive the first turns the match turns slowly into your favor
Eldrazi: little bit favored game 1, good mu after board with 3 bloodmoons wich they cant remove
Combo Lands: favorable, take out there dark depths (lot of players play 3) and they dont have wincons anymore (after board we have moon and a lot of graveyard hate)
Death and Taxes: hard Mu with the new thalia, it al depends on the fact of playing aerwig, if you can hit the equipments the game will turn in to your favor. After board the plague is good just like pyrokinesis, pithing needle and rakdos charm (like said before by olaf it depends on their board strategies as well)
Last thing i wanna change is add pyrokinesis to the main.
So that is the idea. Now a couple of questions
- what about no lackey in this build
- how can i fit benneret in here i dont wanna replace him with warchief.
- how can i fit festering goblin in here (for example it could replace mogg war marshall
- what do you guys think that the problematic match ups will be with this list?
- I might even go for 4 Leyline of the voids While they are the perfect GY hate
answering your questions (my personal opinion):
- no lackey: i feel a lot that you need him. you have 3 squads, but with no squad in hand, lackey can play ringleador or matron and get him, to cast for prowless. i would change the ammount of prospectors, leave 3 prospectors and 2 lackey and drop 1 earwig or some other tweeking numbers, the ideal would be something like 3 prospectors/2 lackey or 2prospectors/3 lackey combination.
- benneret: i think that he isnt that good (compared with warchief) but if you want to really put him, dump the Piledriver. Piledriver is very powerfull against combo to race, but against creatures... bahhh.
- festering goblin: dont like him too much, but it can be useful, if you really want to put him (use instead Shambling Goblin, cause there can be moments than opponent kills festering and you have to kill another creature you control), drop piledriver or banneret.
- problematic match ups: fair decks, that wont allow you to connect a creature (same as it happens today with lackey on the draw).
this are my thougths
also if you cut marshall, you should cut gempalm
Last edited by jonesypunk; 10-20-2016 at 12:05 PM. Reason: mogg war marshall
- what about no lackey in this build
I'm still not a fan of cutting him, but I encourage you to try this in some 3 or 4 round events, coming back to us with some data.
- how can i fit benneret in here i dont wanna replace him with warchief.
You can fit a couple of Frogtosser Bannerets in by shaving 1 Goblin Warchief, and by moving Goblin Sharpshooter to the board. You would still have 4 haste lords, and you are intending to put Pyrokinesis in your maindeck anyway.
- how can i fit festering goblin in here (for example it could replace mogg war marshall
I just don't think Festering Goblin is good enough for Legacy play. You'd be better off running 1 or 2 Subterranean Scout, as he'd be a 1 mana spell in this deck fairly often.
- what do you guys think that the problematic match ups will be with this list?
Green creatures. I think specifically Tarmogoyf is an issue for your deck, just like the normal builds, but to a worse extent in yours due to the new gameplan. This can be solved with 2-3 Perish in the board. Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Shardless Agent, Knight of the Reliquary, Elves. Alternatively Dismember might work if you don't have many tribal spells post board. Dismember even touches a Gurmag Angler.
- I might even go for 4 Leyline of the Voids While they are the perfect GY hate
Leyline is more knock out punch, but there are match's where you'd want some grave hate that doesn't require a mulligan. I'd take Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Faerie Macabre in order of preference in the black build.
-Last thing i wanna change is add pyrokinesis to the main.
You can get 2 mainboard Pyrokinesis fairly easily by dropping to 2 Gempalm Incinerator and 0 Warren Weirdings. If you want to keep the Warren Weirding then the remaining cuts are either Tarfire or Mogg War Marshal.
---
I got my hopes up real high when I misread this new card.
Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 10-24-2016 at 03:13 PM.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
Legacy Goblins Records
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What did you think the new Goblin said Olaf? Did you think he hit creatures?- what about no lackey in this build
I'm still not a fan of cutting him, but I encourage you to try this in some 3 or 4 round events, coming back to us with some data.
- how can i fit benneret in here i dont wanna replace him with warchief.
You can fit a couple of Frogtosser Bannerets in by shaving 1 Goblin Warchief, and by moving Goblin Sharpshooter to the board. You would still have 4 haste lords, and you are intending to put Pyrokinesis in your maindeck anyway.
- how can i fit festering goblin in here (for example it could replace mogg war marshall
I just don't think Festering Goblin is good enough for Legacy play. You'd be better off running 1 or 2 Subterranean Scout, as he'd be a 1 mana spell in this deck fairly often.
- what do you guys think that the problematic match ups will be with this list?
Green creatures. I think specifically Tarmogoyf is an issue for your deck, just like the normal builds, but to a worse extent in yours due to the new gameplan. This can be solved with 2-3 Perish in the board. Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Shardless Agent, Knight of the Reliquary, Elves. Alternatively Dismember might work if you don't have many tribal spells post board. Dismember even touches a Gurmag Angler.
- I might even go for 4 Leyline of the Voids While they are the perfect GY hate
Leyline is more knock out punch, but there are match's where you'd want some grave hate that doesn't require a mulligan. I'd take Surgical Extraction, Nihil Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Faerie Macabre in order of preference in the black build.
-Last thing i wanna change is add pyrokinesis to the main.
You can get 2 mainboard Pyrokinesis fairly easily by dropping to 2 Gempalm Incinerator and 0 Warren Weirdings. If you want to keep the Warren Weirding then the remaining cuts are either Tarfire or Mogg War Marshal.
---
I got my hopes up real high when I misread this new card.
Think Eidolon of the Great Revel. I thought we had finally found a way to main board inevitability against storm. That and that heavy Skirk Prospector list that Dissy had been working on got way better all the sudden.
And then I got home and re-read him. He seemed insane at my actual first glance, like way above what I'd expect, and on the power level of things like Show & Tell, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Thalia, etc.
If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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This card is actually quite good. I actually would want to play B/R Legacy with it.
Pyrokinesis is uncounterable 6 Damage, Kolaghan's Command is just gas, and cast Goblin Ringleader deal you 4?
I don't think this is the card we need or wanted, but I'll take because of the insanity of turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 connect and get in the Vial Smasher, on their turn pyrokinesis their field and hit them for 6 and then continue?
Also works niceley with sideboard tech such as Sudden Demise or even Blasphemous Act?
"Gobble Gobble"
I'm not convinced. The ability is awesome with our high cmc, but other than that... It is yet another LEGENDARY goblin. Too bad the ability says 'cast', otherwise it would be insane!
Last edited by Chatto; 10-25-2016 at 01:00 AM.
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