All B/R update speculation.

[Sidneyious]

The math has been done before on brainstorms percentages to help you against fast combo to find force of will, and the percentages are extremely small. Again, on the draw, it doesn't matter if you even have it or not. On the play, it digs 3 cards deep to find force. The people that say that the format would become all fast all in combo have been proven wrong long ago.

Long ago was before the printing of x card so it's different now

[MorphBerlin]

If your deck gets completely locked out by chance or blood moon then that is the price you pay for being a greedy deck builder. Both of those cards can be overcome fairly easily. Complaining about either of those cards to me is like playing Dredge and complaining about Rest in Peace.

So if your stompy deck get wrecked because it has nothing to smooth out draws and is entually hit by variance at some point in the tournament it's your fault as a deck builder too.

How can a Delver deck overcome a Blood moon or Blood moon easily? It's jsut a question of who has it.

[rlesko]

If your deck gets completely locked out by chance or blood moon then that is the price you pay for being a greedy deck builder. Both of those cards can be overcome fairly easily. Complaining about either of those cards to me is like playing Dredge and complaining about Rest in Peace.

If your deck is predicated upon winning through high risk high reward plays, its not the fault of brainstorm. Plenty of nonblue decks get consistency without brainstorm.

Sure, its easy to not get hosed by those cards, but its not easy to also not be competitive at the same time. I can happily build a deck of 2, 3, or 4 drops but I will probably lose before I can cast them due to the speed of the format.

[iatee]

I feel like the 'ban Brainstorm' argument is kinda like 'ban guns in America'. There are great arguments for doing both. Both of these things result in death and misery just so a few other people can have fun.

But are we ready for the fallout of banning these things? Do you have a plan to deal with millions of people who are irrationally attached to these objects - people who are willing to die and maybe even kill to keep their Brainstorms?

Maybe it would be a good idea to ban Brainstorm but until you have a plan of action to deal with the Brainstorm militia, it really doesn't matter. This will forever remain a philosophical argument, not a practical one. A philosophical argument we can keep having until the end of time.

[Mr Miagi]

I feel like the 'ban Brainstorm' argument is kinda like 'ban guns in America'. There are great arguments for doing both. Both of these things result in death and misery just so a few other people can have fun.

But are we ready for the fallout of banning these things? Do you have a plan to deal with millions of people who are irrationally attached to these objects - people who are willing to die and maybe even kill to keep their Brainstorms?

Maybe it would be a good idea to ban Brainstorm but until you have a plan of action to deal with the Brainstorm militia, it really doesn't matter. This will forever remain a philosophical argument, not a practical one. A philosophical argument we can keep having until the end of time.

That's actually a very good point!

+1

[Dice_Box]

While I understand the post is on topic, please do not bring external politics on the site. It's against site rules and I will have to nuke the posts if you do. Otherwise carry-on.

[Dice_Box]

I am not going to stomp down on people for being a smart ass.

[Dice_Box]

I know this is not really the place for this, but if I post this in its own thread it will end up merged with this thread anyway so I will cut the middleman.

I am on Graveyard shift again. Gives me time to think, to reflect. I realised I am not playing Lands of late. Not because I dont enjoy it, not because I don't think it's good but because I am sick of giving a fuck. If I play Lands, something of myself is invested. The deck is half foiled, it's my baby. I want to treat her right. And of late, my lack of giving a shit has meant I have had to put her down.

So I am playing Infect and Stax again. Might fuck around with BUG Control (not Shardless) and other shit. Why? Because I hate what the format is right now. I am sure I have said this before, but is true again if I have. What has gotten to me? I think Miracles.

I am at the point where I have so little invested I will auto concede to the deck. I am playing Stax, I have a good matchup but I just don't want to play it any more. It's not fun and I get to play 4 round events once a week. Why invest my time in something I just hate? I mean, Nic Fit kills me. Deed, Decay and Pulse destroy Stax as it's built now and I would have more fun playing against that all afternoon. I am just sick of Miracles.

I know others will say it's ok, others will agree with me. I am not looking for a circle jerk here. I honestly don't want that. What I want to say is this deck is sucking the fun out of Legacy for me. Not to say I is all bad, it's been fun in moments sometimes it's had the most memorable moments in games I have ever played. But as a whole I just can't anymore. I can not bring myself to invest myself in a situation I see no hope in changing.

I am not enjoying the format with Miracles in it. If it stays, I don't think I can.

As for what has brought this on, I think it was my playing the deck a few months back. It was just... Yea. No matter what side of the table I sit on, I don't have fun with this deck. That and Mentor just... Fuck it. Im rambling.

[l33twash0r]

Well Im kinda on the same lines. I dropped Storm just before the Eldrazi menace and tried many things, but after all now I'm playing Belcher becous I don't care anymore either.

[HSCK]

@Dice_Box: I feel the same way about the format with Miracles. Its worst match up is 50/50 which is just insane.

[CutthroatCasual]

Congrats. Because of Daniel Miller, Sensei's Divining Top will soon be banned in Legacy.

[Chatto]

@ Dice: I hate to admit it, but I also feel the same. Yet, despite everything I just like playing Legacy. I tell you one thing though, if it stays like this I'm going to trade in my Lands deck, some other staples, put some money into it, and go Vintage (or just play tabletop Legacy). Just play with friends. Just like old times, just having fun.

[iatee]

I am joining you guys in your pledge, with slight modifications. If they don't ban Food Chain, I'm quitting legacy.

[Darkenslight]

Congrats. Because of Daniel Miller, Sensei's Divining Top will soon be banned in Legacy.

That's because he was literally clowning around with it. I'm not surprised he often won 1-0-1, and if he were on the opposite side of me, I'd consider calling a Judge over for Stalling. Such sloppy play, and blatantly trolling with Top activations.

[Megadeus]

I've been saying it for months now. I've gotten to the point that no game against miracles doesn't feel like it hasn't happened before. I mean I think it's mostly because the deck is basically, Orgy of cantrips and top, counterbalance, force and a couple counterspells, stp and terminus, and mentor and snapcaster. Every game plays the same. Cantrip while setting up with top. Wrath your board because terminus is a skill intensive card that costs 1 mana at instant speed, then drop Countertop lock or jace. Remove the 1 or two things your opponent has left that get through counterbalance with stp, win the game at some point while your opponent draws lands

[iatee]

It's funny to have Lands players complaining about how miserable playing against Miracles is. Have you guys ever played against...Lands? Do you really think it's fun for fair decks to face 6 Rishadan Ports / a recurring combo immune to counterspells / Punishing Fire lock / etc. etc?

[rubblekill]

As a MTGO player, I have to say: welcome to the club, Dice.

[Dice_Box]

It's funny to have Lands players complaining about how miserable playing against Miracles is. Have you guys ever played against...Lands? Do you really think it's fun for fair decks to face 6 Rishadan Ports / a recurring combo immune to counterspells / Punishing Fire lock / etc. etc?

The thing is, Lands just folds to Storm most of the time. Playing the deck is a trade. "I choose to stomp Delver, I give up half my sideboard in the hopes of stopping Strom." It's a give and take. Also Bloodmoon, Back to Basics, RIP and other such things just answer us. Lands is a strong deck with defined and exploitable weaknesses. Hell, even a turn one DRS can sometime mean we just lose.

I don't think it's the same.

[iatee]

It's not the same because it's even more of an extreme matchup deck. But someone at the table is *always* miserable. Lands is built to be either heavily favored (because opponent can barely interact with what your doing) or heavily unfavored (because Lands can barely interact with what they're doing).

It's not to say that nobody has ever had a fun game with Lands, but the deck definitely isn't designed to make your opponent get up and say "I really love playing Magic" after they lose to a 20/20 that they can't interact with. Neither is your Stax deck that's turn 1 Chalicing people and attempting to make their entire game of Magic last 20 seconds. These decks are worse than Miracles, but pretending like Miracles is more oppressive for people just because it happens to be a better deck is silly.

[Dice_Box]

But it is oppressive. I am not going to go into the numbers again, you have seen me make all my arguments before and they are as true now as they were then. In short, a deck that holds top spot in a format uncontested for years, has only one tier 2.5 deck as it's only real predator and is able to control with a vice grip the board and the stack is a problem.

Also you can say Chalice ain't fun, what about a multi CMC one sided Chalice? Seems fair.

Lands loses to Combo and hate. Stax loses to itself and any deck running G/B. Miracles loses to 12 post, MUD and the clock. Oh sorry, thanks to Mentor it doesn't lose to that last one any more. Small mercies I guess.