[Primer] Elves!

[Teluin]

Hey guys,

I just Top 8'd the local GPT (finished 3rd/4th). Not doing a tournament report but I beat Storm (round 1), Burn (round 2), 4c Delver (round 5) and Infect. Lost to D&T in Game 3 of the semi-finals. First time I haven't won a match vs. D&T but both games 2 and 3 his opening hand had Jitte - they didn't completely wreck me but they certainly won the games.

Anyway, the point of this post is actually that the 2 decks that totally destroyed me in rounds 3 and 4 were mono-white decks with the new Thalia - round 3 being vs. Michael Gouthro who was featured during Eternal Weekend playing the deck on camera. This was my first time playing in maybe 7 months, so was not aware of them being prevalent in my local meta. Was wondering if anyone had any strategies or experience they've employed vs Thalia? I am considering either removing fetch lands for forests (not optimal with DRS but seriously.. Thalia ruins Elves) or adding Amulet of Vigors to the sideboard. The decks did not win that quickly, so am thinking the latter might be the better option.

Cheers

(btw I play a combo-y version of Elves, with 3 Rangers and 4 Druids main board along with 3 Natural Order. Can post the deck if you guys want)

[abombdiggity]

Anyway, the point of this post is actually that the 2 decks that totally destroyed me in rounds 3 and 4 were mono-white decks with the new Thalia - round 3 being vs. Michael Gouthro who was featured during Eternal Weekend playing the deck on camera. This was my first time playing in maybe 7 months, so was not aware of them being prevalent in my local meta. Was wondering if anyone had any strategies or experience they've employed vs Thalia? I am considering either removing fetch lands for forests (not optimal with DRS but seriously.. Thalia ruins Elves) or adding Amulet of Vigors to the sideboard. The decks did not win that quickly, so am thinking the latter might be the better option.

Cheers

(btw I play a combo-y version of Elves, with 3 Rangers and 4 Druids main board along with 3 Natural Order. Can post the deck if you guys want)

How do you board against D&T? I've found myself sideboarding much leaner on the play against the newer, thalia heavy lists if I lose game 2. If they tap out on t3 for a thalia, that gives us an opening to NO without fear of containment priest or a swords. I typically board in ~3 cards in this case, compared to 5 (2 decay, 1 Null Rod) I don't feel that maxing out on decay is necessary if we're able to go underneath multiple pieces of hate. I tend to prioritize hands that can put out multiple dudes on t2, even if I'm not able to get full value off a glimpse.

[Teluin]

How do you board against D&T? I've found myself sideboarding much leaner on the play against the newer, thalia heavy lists if I lose game 2. If they tap out on t3 for a thalia, that gives us an opening to NO without fear of containment priest or a swords. I typically board in ~3 cards in this case, compared to 5 (2 decay, 1 Null Rod) I don't feel that maxing out on decay is necessary if we're able to go underneath multiple pieces of hate. I tend to prioritize hands that can put out multiple dudes on t2, even if I'm not able to get full value off a glimpse.

They weren't D&T decks. They first was the new Soldier deck and the second seemed to be the guy's own brew with similar elements, including new Thalia, Chalice and Palace Jailer.

[abombdiggity]

They weren't D&T decks. They first was the new Soldier deck and the second seemed to be the guy's own brew with similar elements, including new Thalia, Chalice and Palace Jailer.

Ah, gotcha. I have gotten about 20 or so games against Soldier stompy (or whatever he calls it) since one of my buddies put it together. Against that I do max out on Decay and side out some of the 1 drops that are poorly matched up against Chalice. The deck is pretty rough, although I'd much rather see it than the blood moon stompy lists. NO is our best card against this list by far- the matchup seems pretty even, but when we lose, it's usually a blowout, and when we win it seems pretty easy.

[Teluin]

Ah, gotcha. I have gotten about 20 or so games against Soldier stompy (or whatever he calls it) since one of my buddies put it together. Against that I do max out on Decay and side out some of the 1 drops that are poorly matched up against Chalice. The deck is pretty rough, although I'd much rather see it than the blood moon stompy lists. NO is our best card against this list by far- the matchup seems pretty even, but when we lose, it's usually a blowout, and when we win it seems pretty easy.

Despite the good placing that contained 2 Cavern of Souls, I am currently trying out no Caverns and 2 Decays mainboard. I know Caverns can be awesome when hard casting Craterhoof, but that's rarely relevant as it's almost always 'Elf'. I'd rather Decay a Counterbalance or Chalice then go off instead of getting in a creature a turn against them. Main Decays are very versatile against most decks and my 3 Birchlore, 4 DRS and the Bayous mean I often have access to Black mana. This doesn't quite solve that damn Thalia though, as she really screws our tempo by tapping our fetchlands, Cradles, creatures etc.

[catmint]

Also, if someone can please explain exactly what makes Garruk so good? Thank you!

PendelSteven - Garruk can spit out creatures in grindy matchups, remove small (but problematic) creatures, and is resistant to most removal. And, rare, but his flip side ult can be a game-winner if you are having trouble getting out a Hoof.

The only matchup where I have space to board in an PW win-con is Miracles. And against that deck I find Nissa, Vital Force better. She won me a couple of games in testing where I just ultimated her in the 2nd turn and quirion, dryad or just drawing fetchlands felt unfair. The added benefit of killing jace (and killing faster) is also nice and I think Garruk (altough being 1 mana cheaper) is vulnerable to the same weapons Miracles has already against us.

So PendelSteven - I also don't understand why Garruk is so widely adopted.

_______

On the maindeck Decay discussion. As Julian said - we play a lot against chalice and counterbalance and to be honest if Delver draws well a Decay on their insect helps more than GSZ for Ooze usually. So I also already thought about this option and in general using the 2 flex slots (Sage, Jitte/Ooze) a little differently. In a local tournament with 40% Miracles I chose to play the Teeg Maindeck. Teeg surprised a Miracles player once (but just ate a swords) and it won me a game against ANT.

So one question is how much "core" of the deck can we dilute without hurting the combo/engines too much. So far I think Sage and Ooze/Jitte/Teeg are dead cards in term of Regular game plan so 2 slots seems fine. Cutting another core card might be already too much... ?

And the other question – how to use these flex slots optimally. Sage played from my hand and GSZ for it is regularly useful. Ooze/Teeg I find rarely useful (Teeg G1 vs. Miracles is also not really a game changer).

Since Sage and Decay overlap it might be worth testing to play 2 Decay in these 2 slots. Might also give some SB room for more powerful hate cards.
Edit: I would not cut the really powerful Caverns. Casting Decay with the regular mana base (+ playing 2 Birchlore) seems good enough in G2 so why not in G1.

[Prdgychild]

The only matchup where I have space to board in an PW win-con is Miracles. And against that deck I find Nissa, Vital Force better. She won me a couple of games in testing where I just ultimated her in the 2nd turn and quirion, dryad or just drawing fetchlands felt unfair. The added benefit of killing jace (and killing faster) is also nice and I think Garruk (altough being 1 mana cheaper) is vulnerable to the same weapons Miracles has already against us.

So PendelSteven - I also don't understand why Garruk is so widely adopted.

_______

On the maindeck Decay discussion. As Julian said - we play a lot against chalice and counterbalance and to be honest if Delver draws well a Decay on their insect helps more than GSZ for Ooze usually. So I also already thought about this option and in general using the 2 flex slots (Sage, Jitte/Ooze) a little differently. In a local tournament with 40% Miracles I chose to play the Teeg Maindeck. Teeg surprised a Miracles player once (but just ate a swords) and it won me a game against ANT.

So one question is how much "core" of the deck can we dilute without hurting the combo/engines too much. So far I think Sage and Ooze/Jitte/Teeg are dead cards in term of Regular game plan so 2 slots seems fine. Cutting another core card might be already too much... ?

And the other question – how to use these flex slots optimally. Sage played from my hand and GSZ for it is regularly useful. Ooze/Teeg I find rarely useful (Teeg G1 vs. Miracles is also not really a game changer).

Since Sage and Decay overlap it might be worth testing to play 2 Decay in these 2 slots. Might also give some SB room for more powerful hate cards.
Edit: I would not cut the really powerful Caverns. Casting Decay with the regular mana base (+ playing 2 Birchlore) seems good enough in G2 so why not in G1.

I have NO for rec sage to blow up jitte so many times now I cannot justify ever losing that card. It is not very flashy but it works and has again has won me countless games.

[Lemnear]

I still don't have an idea why one should try to solve Chalice/Counterbalance with the Land-Slots in the deck, rather than with the creature slots, especially under the aspects of colors, boarding plans and cardadvantage.

[Prdgychild]

I still don't have an idea why one should try to solve Chalice/Counterbalance with the Land-Slots in the deck, rather than with the creature slots, especially under the aspects of colors, boarding plans and cardadvantage.

What creature package do you suggest we use to deal with this problem?

[Julian23]

He's referring to running more Reclamation Sages. I'd like it if we didn't have to cut stuff for it. Also against CB I still feel much better with a Cavern. Same goes for T1 Chalice, T2 TKS. But we're not beating the later anyway most of the time when they're otp.

[Lemnear]

Of course the NO package would get cut for more Sages.

On the other hand, I just experimented with cutting the NO to run Infernal Tutor. Jup, daddy is testing Ad Nauseam Elves (of couse without a classic fatty)

[Echelon]

On the other hand, I just experimented with cutting the NO to run Infernal Tutor. Jup, daddy is testing Ad Nauseam Elves (of couse without a classic fatty)

So a 5/7 mana (off colour) wincon over a 4 mana wincon..? What's your thinking there?

[Julian23]

Haha, I've considered Ad Nauseam in the past as well. But was never really crazy enough to actually try it out. I'd love to End-of-Turn it vs Miracles or Shardless though.

[Lemnear]

So a 5/7 mana (off colour) wincon over a 4 mana wincon..? What's your thinking there?

If people splash white mana into a BG deck, I cant consider Black mana "off color".

The idea behind this madness was that IT can grab anything you want at a certain point in the game, no matter if its your sole RecSage or a Cabal Therapy to shred your opponents hand. As I dont opt to run any fatty, the mana-cheating of NO was not relevant and unlike the green sorcery, IT produces no carddisadvantage and no clunky draws. Its a redundancy tool and/or a gameender depending on the situation and your mana available. 9 virtual Rec Sages? 12 Symbiotes? List is endless. As I opted to only run 1 Sage and 4 Visionaries as non 0cc/1cc creature cards, Ad Nauseam looked like a mad addition at topend play to refill your hand and/or win.

Its just an idea of a different tool & combo engine than NO in the colors of the deck

[Echelon]

Meh, I still think you're nuts . I get the point, but @1 mana, Symbiote is awesome. @3, less so. I guess this plan should improve G2/3 though, so there's that.

[Hopo]

Don't laugh at tutor. I played two copies in green deadguy ~ten years ago to top8 national champs but the principle hasn't changed: it gives raw topdecking power if your deck needs it. Also doubling up on your starting threats/disruption is something many decks would like but haven't thought of since IT has so heavy storm stigma on it's face.

[Lemnear]

Don't laugh at tutor. I played two copies in green deadguy ~ten years ago to top8 national champs but the principle hasn't changed: it gives raw topdecking power if your deck needs it. Also doubling up on your starting threats/disruption is something many decks would like but haven't thought of since IT has so heavy storm stigma on it's face.

This is the point, sir.

Improve the "topdeck silverbullet" chance ranging from spotremoval (Sage) over "mindtwisting" ftw (with Therapy) to massive cardadvantage (As Nauseam). I probably have missed plenty of options

[Echelon]

You could also run SDTs. The deck runs plenty of shuffle effects.

[Julian23]

Ok, back to the real cards ().

Just for fun I decided to give Chaos Elves another go in a Legacy League and was promptly rewarded with a 5-0. Deck played incredibly well. So well, I'm actually considering it for MKM Prague now. If you're looking for a list I'd recommend, check it out. Really liked the maindeck Decays since they're hardly ever bad in the current meta AND free up additional sideboard slots that Chaos Elves always has plenty of anyway.

[benjiman13]

Hi Julian, how many decay ae you playing in the main?
Can you share your list?

How do you feel chaos elves against combo?