Good ol Steve taking one for the team and killing himself repeatedly to infuriate your opponent. I think he's my cut though, I never ran him before this in my Junk build. Between 4 Vets and 2 DRS I think there's plenty of ramp.Originally Posted by volrathxp
I know the difference between 60 and 61 isn't a lot, but my inner spike wants to maximize my win percentages. Plus the deck only runs like 22 lands, I'd rather not dilute that anymore.
You can get cute with some of the Quests from original Zen block. I know one of the blue ones lets you tutor for a card instead of drawing a card. Hangarback walker seems like a better target than Scooze for a proliferate target though value wise, but then you're playing hangarback walker in legacy.
You don't need that many Proliferate targets, really. She's fine just as a 4/4 flying vigilance lifelink deathtouch.
That said, I was running Jitte and Tracker, and should probably have had Ooze. Other options :
Gavony Township (colorless lands in a 4c deck are bad though)
Meren (better at more 4cmc dorks that lose to Karakas)
Ring of Evos Isle / Ring of Xathrid (Other Stoneforge targets are better)
Miscellaneous Energy based cards from Kaladesh - Dynavolt Tower is probably the closest, and it's still garbage.
Deathmist Raptor / Den Protector combo might be worth trying out, although they don't interact well with Zenith.
Plenty of other mediocre guys. Common theme is not interacting with enemy guys and being vulnerable to removal, but there's plenty of card advantage and threats out there. Yisan could be fun. Warden of the First Tree is a guy I've wanted to try before.
It could be fun to proliferate Endless One or Hangarback Walker. I've experimented with both in my build to reasonable success. Walker is extra fun since Atraxa puts you in blue to use a Trinket Mage package already. Both creatures just being X cost are nice in 4 color builds too since you don't need to worry about any mana fixing for them.
On the subject of Warden of the First Tree, I actually tried it out while messing with a Ranger of Eos package. It was worse than Endless One or Walker. I think the same holds true just on it's own merits. While you can GSZ it, and then grow it right away in the mid to late game I'm not a fan of cards like that. It's just investing too much in one body only to eat Swords to Plowshares with no additional value.
I've played Hangarback Walker in multiple Nic Fit builds. I've played it in BUG using Trinket Mage as a way to Mage into a body, I've played it in Pod as Ranger/Mage targets to jump the curve. I've played it in my current build, although I'm currently on Endless One instead.
When Swords to Plowshares is on a decline, Hangarback Walker is actually pretty good. It's absolutely ridiculous in the Delver matchups and it's a pretty fantastic combat trick alongside Phyrexian Tower (for extra fun, Two Towers it)
Don't forget Spike Feeder, Spike Weaver, and Verdurous Gearhulk for +1/+1 counters. I would be inclined to believe that a Nic Fit list with 4 GSZ, 1 Atraxa, 1 Sigarda, and 1 Hulk would be enough to take away any game of Magic. You could even toss in a single Thrun or Siege Rhino and any superfriends shell with lots of control elements would have a ridiculous amount of aggro to it.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I'm less inclined towards the bigger creatures. Any list with Atraxa in it is going to have access to finishers almost incidentally, and already has a Baneslayer equivalent along with probably Sigarda. I don't feel like dedicating many more slots to solely finishers is really worth it, since 90% of the time Atraxa and a Stoneforge -> Jitte is enough.
Incidentally are there any good ways of bouncing our own creatures that don't suck? Atraxa + Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor has me thinking now. Also good with Eternal Witness and Stoneforge.
Varolz, the Scar-Striped can be used as a zenitable sac engine and recycle the dead vet/strix/...
Merens experience counters.
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Both blue and green have the ability to return creatures to your hand as a cost.
The first that comes to my mind is Temur Sabertooth but I'm pretty sure there's some better options that don't cost any mana.
So I've been having some small success with a Junk list similar to the one that did well at SCG balt. I want to tweak and update it and the sideboard is a trainwreck, but it looks like this:
Maindeck: 61
Lands: 22 (the weird fetch numbers are based around fetches I own, not the optimal ones)
3x heath
1x delta
1x Catacomb
1x Foothills
1x Mire
1x Flats
3 x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x P. Tower
1x D. Arbor
1x Wasteland
Creatures: 16
4x Explorer
1x Deathrite
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x E. Witness
3x Siege Rhino
1x Thrun the Last Troll
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
Non-Creatures: 22
4x Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Thoughtsieze
1x Innocent Blood
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Deed
1x Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Dismember
1x Painful Truths
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
Planeswalkers: 1
1x Nissa, Vital Force
board: 15
2x thoughtsieze
2x Choke
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Krosan Grip
2x To the Slaughter
1x Pithing Needleso
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Most of my testing is done at FNMs but this list has been putting up positive results. Nissa is a house and I genuinely feel like she is the walker that we needed, even more so than my previous champion Ob Nixilis. I'm also considering cutting the Grave Titan for a Tireless Tracker, keeping my top end at 5 and giving me another slot on my Green Sun curve.
As of late i've been finding the D&t match up difficult, even with three Deeds. I tend to get run over faster than I can handle their board. The list itself is pretty stock and I still run into the same problems versus combo, however I do have a positive win ratio against B/R reanimator.
Arguments for RiP vs Surgical Extraction in the board. I dislike Rest in Peace because I find I have to take out too much to accommodate it, but it can win games on its own. My local metagame is really all over the place so I have arguments for both, but it errs on the side of aggro/midrange and combo.
Looking a bit more, I didn't see anything on gatherer that seemed powerful enough. But I only looked at creatures, if there's a spell that has an unsummon as a cost it might be ok.
If you're playing blue, would venser be out of the question?
In terms of spells, there's Aether Spellbomb which we can use to bounce and cycle. Alternatively there's clutch of currents as a one mana option that could also be used to create a creature that combos with proliferate. There's also Far//Away which is a pretty nice 241.
I tried brewing an Atraxa superfriends list and I've concluded that the best option is a BUG deck with a single Savannah to hardcast Atraxa mainboard and have access to Teeg postboard. None of the PW compare to Lily and Jace, and Brainstorm is much better than StP in a Decay/Deed shell. Atraxa is great on its own and her proliferate ability becomes devastating when paired with Liliana (lots of sac or an early ultimate), Jace (tick up while brainstorming or 1 bounce per turn for Witness, Hulk, or Thragtusk maybe), Garruk (ticks up the fight ability while making 2/2s), or Gearhulk (grows everything every turn). Here's a first draft:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Too
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
//SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
@Qweerios
I've actually been leaning towards going in the opposite direction, and running mostly white with a blue splash for Atraxa, Leovold, Tamiyo. I wasn't that impressed by JTMS myself when I played him, although I didn't see him that much.
Alright report time!
This was my first magic event that wasnt just our local scene and it was a blast and was really cool to see and meet people I have seen on camera before.
So I was playing
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Sun Titan
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
With a sideboard of
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Painful Truths
1 Krosan Grip
1 Glissa, The Traitor
R1 Against Miracles
G1: He mana flooded pretty hard this game and died from 2 Rhino hits and 4 Rhino triggers. Not much to say other than he showed mentors
-4 Vet -4 Cabal -1 Atraxa -1 Path +1 Elspeth sun champ +1 Garruk relentless +3 lost legacy +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Qasali pridemage +1 Gaddock Teeg +2 Painful Truths
Vets and cabals are both bad in the match up and atraxa dies to karakas and path is medium.
Elspeth/Garruk both make dudes for days they have to answer.
LL answers jace cleanly and if you ever see the 2 towers can just exile all their threats with E wit.
Deluge answers mentor much less excited about this against non mentor decks
Qasalie is a nice green sunable counterbalance killer that hits for 3.
Gaddock teeg is annoying for them.
Painful Turths is always good in slow matchups
G2: mull to 5 and die mentor
G3: We both durdle for a while early as neither of us have anything to do I have an early top as well as him and then at some point he slams Jace and brainstorms and then passes. I then slam Big daddy Sorin and shoot jace. Next turn still on 6 mana I draw a Rhino and then activate top and see Elspeth, Rhino, something else. So I plus Sorin reveal Elspeth and then cast rhino he has dropped form 17 to 8. He does nothing and then passes back and I top on end step and Rhino, something else, and kaya. Draw rhino plus sorin reveal kaya then cast Rhino taking him from 7 to 0.
1-0 so far hoping all the combo decks lost their g1 to eldrazi or something.
R2 Against Jacob Hagen on Miracales
G1: I die to jace the usual way we die to jace.
Side boarded the same as befoer
G2: I LL Jace and then beat him to death with a 2/2 wolf from garruk left around after he Councils judgemented it.
G3: This game ended up going to time because it was super grindy. on turn 5 he plays jace and brainstorms after concils judementing my leovold, I top and see Garruk, Nissa, Elspeth. Untap play Garruk make a dude. He snap councils Garruk and brianstorms some more. I untap and cast nissa which he forces. He plays CB and passes. I untap play elsepth and make dudes and pass. He terminus the first dudes. I draw a green sun and have 2 in hand now. Make dudes and pass(Im he has Counter top at this point). SO at this point he untaps and play mentor and passes back after playing top and this is now turn 0. On my turn I draw deed. I try and path mentor he throws top on top and then chumps snap(on brainstorm earlier) and mentor token away to keep his jace alive. So with him tapped out and with top on top I play deed with 2 mana left open and pass. He untaps and draws his second copy of wear tear(he had multiple tops at this point) and wear tears my deed. I pop it on 0(This might have been a missplay maybe I should of kept my tokens around not really sure) then shows me the second top and makes 6 tokens and kill elspeth. I draw nothing and die due to him having counterspell.
1-1 Bleh Feel like I should of had that game was kinda frustring that he saw Councils and his 1 of snap twice and then both wear tears as he used one earlier to make a mentor token and that game 1 he saw all 4 forces to stop me from answer jace in any meaningful fashion.
R3 Against Grixis Delver
G1: He sees 3 delvers in row and 3 bolts. I ended up shooting the first 2 but they all flipped quickly and I died just as quick.
-1 Soring Grim Nemsis, -1 Nissa, vital force +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Glissa
The fat walkers are really bad against delver as they are hard to cast and hard to protect.
Deluge kills their board which is nice
Glissa blocks gurmag and cant be hit by flying delvers like nissa can.
G2: We get going for a little bit and I answer all of his stuff and top out for something i dont remember what. Next turn he winter orbs me. Shit. I proceed to draw top and play top. Next turn draw decay. Damn I am good at this game. Turn after that blow up orb on his upkeep and drown him fat shit(pretty sure he died to a no value sun titan this game but I could be wrong)
G3: Same situation as game one we grind for a little bit and then he winter orbs me again, this time I have the decay in hand and draw the second land to cast it on his next turn and he proceeds to die to random fat shit.
2-1 so far not feeling too hot about my chance because there is combo out the ass for whatever reason 2 enchantress 2 storm 2 sneak and show 2 reanimaters and they where all 1-1 or better going into round 3
R4 Against Harley Forrest on B/R reanimater
G1: He makes T1 Grisslebrand. I die
-3 deed -3 decay +3 LL +2 surgical +1 deluge
Deeds and decays all suck in this matchup
LL well if I live long enough I can stop him cold
Surgicals are great
Deluge can kill their fatties and give us time
G2: I surgical his dude and he dies to a scooze. He could of won this game I believe because I cast a scoze of 1 land shaman(which he said he should of decayed it main phase) and the he proceeds to just cast random shit and grow my scoze. But later on he cast exhume. SO if he save all this with his 5 lands he could of put 3+ dudes in yard and cast exhume.
G3: I have an opening 7 of 4 land vet scoze and Atraxa. I think there is an argument to keeping this hand because he isn't b/u reanimater he can reanimate 1 dude quickly and then we should hopefully be able to get scoze out to stop future reanimations and trade atraxa with what ever he reanimated. Still doesnt beat T1 Gbrand so I pitch it but it turns out he had a slower hand with entomb exume and and I mulled to 4 because 5 and 6 were nonfunctional and keep 2 land vet scoze and then die to the gbrand on turn 2.
2-2 This matchup feels really rough. I think we can have some sideboard configuration that isnt aweful that makes this matchup better. Deathrite does not feel good against this deck at all. Im thinking the Toughtsizes over LL would help a lot for this matchup.
R5 Against Tezzerator
G1: He plays like 8 million cards while trying to empty his hand for bridge so he doesnt die to the vet plus rhino. I then cast deed and he is left with one permanent after his artifact lands and glimmer voids blow up.
-4 Cabal therapy +2 surgical +1 Grip +1 Qasali
Therapy felt really bad in this match up as he felt like a grindy deck
Grip/Qasali Answers to Bridge
surgical was because I know they play thopter sword in modern so I brought it in not really sure of what to expect but knowing the use the yard a lot.
G2: We both mull to 4. Im pretty sure this heavily favors us as they have to quickly kill us which is hard. I end up having 2 lands vet with path green sun in hand. He then cast a helm and I path my vet get a 3rd land and then top deck a Land get qasali with G sun and pass. He Collective brutality for all 3 modes(he has a bridge at this point) pitching leyline of the void and some other card. I blow up the helm(should of hit the bridge) and surgical the leyline which was his last card in hand. I blow up bridge at some point and then he dies.
3-2 Deed is hilariously good against that deck. At this point im live for top 16
R6 Against Jadine(think im spelling this right) on 4C delver
G1: I answer her early threats and then go Rhino into Atraxa into Sigarda. She has seen enough and we go to board.
Same as with Grixis Delver
G2: She really tempos me out of this game seeing a lot of counter magic along the way. I think I messed up when I took a turn off to put rhino on top of my library with stronghold. While rhino is really really good against delver and looked good on the board state and think answer more of her threats would have lead to me having a better chance later on.
G3: She plays early threats and I answer them with a deed and get some vet trigger(s). She then proceeds to play goyf, truename and deathrite with no cards left in hand and me with one. I have E wit in hand. I untap and play E wit return deed and play deed. Pass turn and chump goyf take 3 and then wipe the board and proceed to win from there.
Ended the day on 4-2 Tied for 10th( the breakers for the 9,10 and 11th were all really close) rather happy about showing up to my first non local legacy event and first time with nic fit and making top 16. Deck performed pretty well with the only time being mana screwed being when I mulled to 5 round 1 and then only time I was color screwed was against wastelandicales where I fetched the 2nd bayou making it the 3rd black and 4th green instead of getting second white and then drawing sun titan.
If there are any questions about card choices, side board choices, or anything in general do ask because ill be hanging around.
Edit: Quick edit with something I want to add Atraxa and l kaya were both great and kaya being amazing every time I drew her. I would recommend trying her out.
Also for anyone not running Nissa vital force the card is amazing, although she ate a force every time I cast her during the event
And @zyren
I really like her just to be a flying batterskull that trades with anything. I dont really feel like she alone is compelling enough to care about the proliferate ability although ticking up our walkers in the fair matchups is pretty sweet got to ult a nissa twice today against shardless because of her!
Nicely done. Great report.
On B/R Reanimator, Thoughtseize is a must, because you need to rip their hand to shreds to prevent them from doing their thing. They are way faster than you with a good hand, so this is really important to get rid of their reanimation spells in hand. I've even Surgicaled Exhumes before in this matchup because it feels so good to cut them off an avenue of reanimation.
This deck is semi popular locally so I see it enough. It's pretty easy to fight through once you know what their game plan is. Also the deck is very opening hand dependent so if they mulligan hard, you're headed in the right direction.
How much better is the matchup with thoughtsiezes?
Thoughtsieze makes the match much less scary and way more winnable. If you leave them stranded with creatures in hand or without a reanimated spell then you have more time to get your hate pieces or your finishers online.
That. The card just has a bunch of cool, simple keyword abilities. Proliferate is pretty much flavour text. Any value it might give you is incidental, no need to specifically build for it.
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