[Primer] Elves!

[AznSeal]

Time to shitpost. Do you know what would make our deck pretty good? a 3 CMC green planes walker something along the lines of

Nissa, *insert title*
GGC
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Untap target land
-2: Destroy target artifact or enchantment
-4: Sacrifice a creature, search your library for a green creature and put it into play.

Too strong? Maybe.

On topic: I tested the 5 CMC nissa and it seems like a win-more. I like Garruk Relentless because its 4 CMC and works on an empty board, where as Nissa is really only "good" when youre already ahead.

[Lemnear]

It seems to me like you're demanding that the people who play nissa justify their choices to you, or convince you to run her, which I disagree is anyone's job. Its not necessary that people in an internet forum discussing a deck reach absolute consensus on a list. Especially not one as modular and potentially toolboxy as elves.

None of that is required or demanded, really. We are not questioning builds with NO/Hoof or without NO/Hoof as both styles have their clear cut plans and accepted individual weaknesses. We are open about the weaknesses and dont act as if NO->Progenitus is an autowin against Miracles and mana-/hardcast-issues do not exist. With Nissa the discussion however felt like drifting into exactly that direction, labeling it as "enabler for turn 2 combo kills" and more.

Also, in these negative scenarios you are presenting, these are not "bad". They are unwinnable. Can you please explain what one card in a potential elves maindeck would be better than Nissa in these scenarios? (I.e. you have four lands, no creatures due to terminus, no creatures in hand to help cast nissa, and your opponent is flipping entreat?) I would put to you that this is equally a useless scenario to complain about nissa as no single card can win from that state.

I did not bring up that scenario. Dont put words in my mouth. I was asking how the card fares against swarm blockers like entreat, pyromancer, Mentor, etc which are common in the metagame OR (not AND) if the card is actually castable after a terminus if Jace or Counterbalance is the likely follow-up spell

[Capt4in]

None of that is required or demanded, really. We are not questioning builds with NO/Hoof or without NO/Hoof as both styles have their clear cut plans and accepted individual weaknesses. We are open about the weaknesses and dont act as if NO->Progenitus is an autowin against Miracles and mana-/hardcast-issues do not exist. With Nissa the discussion however felt like drifting into exactly that direction, labeling it as "enabler for turn 2 combo kills" and more.



I did not bring up that scenario. Dont put words in my mouth. I was asking how the card fares against swarm blockers like entreat, pyromancer, Mentor, etc which are common in the metagame OR (not AND) if the card is actually castable after a terminus if Jace or Counterbalance is the likely follow-up spell

Fine. If nissa is actually uncastable in that scenario, what spell is actually castable after a terminus>counterbalance or terminus>Jace that both swings that board state into a reasonable one and beats swarm blockers? If there is no such card, then it seems pointless to piss and moan about nissa in that spot when it is unwinnable regardless. It seems to me that your alternative is to just pressure them with un hasted 1/1s, which is fine but equally ineffective against terminus>CB or teminus>jace.

[Lemnear]

Fine. If nissa is actually uncastable in that scenario, what spell is actually castable after a terminus>counterbalance or terminus>Jace that both swings that board state into a reasonable one and beats swarm blockers? If there is no such card, then it seems pointless to piss and moan about nissa in that spot when it is unwinnable regardless. It seems to me that your alternative is to just pressure them with un hasted 1/1s, which is fine but equally ineffective against terminus>CB or teminus>jace.

Isn't finding the right card (and it having the right cost) to counter the Terminus into CB/Jace the task we have?

Mind, it wasn't me jumping into the thread praising Nissa as the hail mary against CounterTop/Terminus/Jace/Mentor. Whats your point? That I dont simply accept the claims that Nissa is the best addition since DRS, because I have no better solution (which beats everything, despite there are solutions to the individual cards) and therefore have to shut up?

[Capt4in]

Isn't finding the right card (and it having the right cost) to counter the Terminus into CB/Jace the task we have?

Mind, it wasn't me jumping into the thread praising Nissa as the hail mary against CounterTop/Terminus/Jace/Mentor. Whats your point? That I dont simply accept the claims that Nissa is the best addition since DRS, because I have no better solution (which beats everything, despite there are solutions to the individual cards) and therefore have to shut up?

My point is maybe there are more productive ways for you to spend your time than shouting down everyone who likes something you don't like with unhelpful hypotheticals. Just because cabal therapy isn't good when there's an annihilator 6 trigger on the stack doesn't mean it doesn't have applications against sneak and show. You are replying to almost every nissa post in the last 3-4 pages. People get that you don't like her because you think we never have any creatures in play versus miracles. Make your point and move on.

[Prdgychild]

My point is maybe there are more productive ways for you to spend your time than shouting down everyone who likes something you don't like with unhelpful hypotheticals. Just because cabal therapy isn't good when there's an annihilator 6 trigger on the stack doesn't mean it doesn't have applications against sneak and show. You are replying to almost every nissa post in the last 3-4 pages. People get that you don't like her because you think we never have any creatures in play versus miracles. Make your point and move on.

^ this

[AznSeal]

I know this has been discussed but if you're so set on beating terminus or entreat, why not play chaos elves with chord of calling? Chord for Gaddock Teeg with the miracle trigger on the stack. Sure if you do a scenario where they have a counter spell or STP, you lose anyways, but chord being instant speed and potentially "free" may be a good complement to the sorcery speed of GSZ.

[Julian23]

Got back-2-back 5-0s with this Chaos Elves list feat. Nissa tonight:



#1
R1: Grixis Delver 2-0
R2: RUG Delver 2-1
R3: Sneak Show 2-1
R4: Dredge 2-0
R5: BR Reanimator 2-1

#2
R1: Infect 2-1
R2: Grixis Reanimator 2-0
R3: Shardless BUG 2-1
R4: BUG Delver 2-0
R5: Merfolk 2-0

/edit: actually, during the second 5-0 I exchanged a Jitte in the SB for a Leyline of Lifeforce, but that didn't matter at all.

List felt incredibly good. Can't really comment too much on Nissa though. Because of the matchups, she got boarded out a ton. When I did land her, she definitely was a huge factor. Even though Miracles hasn't been part of these two leagues, when I faced it Nissa has been REALLY good. Especially in Chaos Elves. If it wasn't like 3am in Germany right now (damn you, Capcom Cup for keeping me awake!) I'd almost say that the above list actually feels favored vs Miracles.

[Lemnear]

My point is maybe there are more productive ways for you to spend your time than shouting down everyone who likes something you don't like with unhelpful hypotheticals.

I understand. Using hypotheticals and hyperboles is ONLY fine if you use them to argue FOR a card and its more important to "like" a card than questioning its "role".

@Prdgychild
Its nice that you finally learned how to quote

[skyout]

Needle is great against Lands. You'll have to decide according to the situation whether you need to set it on Thepsian Stage or Wasteland though.

Other than that, Extracting Fire helps, but also expect them to have either Seismis Assault or Molten Vortex. With that in mind, extracting Loam, especially if you hit it early, is probably the better play.

But if you really wanna hit them hard, play Blood Elves with Moon.

Just a follow up to my questions earlier, still struggling with sideboarding against Lands. Lets say I'm playing Jan Lenger's list, whats a good sideboard plan versus lands? This is my idea, please let me know if I'm way off:

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Scavenging Ooze

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Glimpse of Nature
-2 Wirewood Symbiote
-2 Elvish Visionary

My thoughts are trying to combo quickly against lands because in a grindy game they just will just wear down our resources, or combo kill themselves.

[mistercakes]

with that list i would probably do this:

-1 jitte
-1 nettle sentinel
-1 heritage druid

+2 surgical
+1 ooze

why are you bringing in 3 abrupt decay?

[skyout]

with that list i would probably do this:

-1 jitte
-1 nettle sentinel
-1 heritage druid

+2 surgical
+1 ooze

why are you bringing in 3 abrupt decay?

Bringing in Abrupt Decay because of things like Chalice of the Voice and maybe tagging a Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex. Also people in the area sometimes play Sphere of Resistance.

[TGCRequiem]

I don't make time to play a lot of Legacy, and don't have anyone local to practice against Miracles with, so I really don't have a ton of experience with it unfortunately. This said I played against Miracles online this morning with essentially Jan's list +2 Nissa -1 Dryad Arbor, -1 Quirion Ranger. First of all cutting lands while adding 5cmc planeswalkers seems super funky to me...and did Akira's list really cut two lands?

Anyway I drew Nissa in both games and in the first game I led with a glimpse hoping to bait out a Force, which worked and then followed up with Nissa which was Counterspelled. Eventually the game got to a point where my opponent was hellbent w/ 2 mana available and a fetch. I played a Rec Sage on the Top, he topped, fetched, topped and put Top on top of the Library drawing a card. I then followed this with a Natural Order into Craterhoof which for all intents would have ended the game, but he happened to have topped into a Swords :(

Second game I landed Nissa somewhat early and she was very effective, however due to a lack of reps against Miracles, mistakes were made. Eventually the game got to a point where he was down to 3 life and I was upticking over and over with Nissa, but he was able to parlay a Mentor into endless blockers until I eventually succumbed. I am VERY confident of several mistakes and sequencing errors during the game. I feel like if I had put a little more thought into it, and hadn't been chatting w/a buddy simultaneously leading me to run low on time I would have won earlier and in large part due to Nissa. That said, once Mentor hit Nissa really felt significantly weakened. I also am not confident how worthwhile the ultimate is in the matchup. If you are under no pressure and you have a Quirion Ranger in play I could see it being fantastic, but otherwise you're already typically pulling a couple Cradles in the matchup and it's not like you're loaded w/lands to gain the value otherwise, and I'm assuming nobody is trying to ultimate her from 6 b/c if you wait one more turn you can keep upticking.

Anyway, not an expert, but experience from a recent matchup.

[Prdgychild]

I understand. Using hypotheticals and hyperboles is ONLY fine if you use them to argue FOR a card and its more important to "like" a card than questioning its "role".

@Prdgychild
Its nice that you finally learned how to quote

See Julian's list above.

[Lemnear]

See Julian's list above.

Where did he play against the sweepers we discussed?

[blind]

With the U splash for Leovold, we don't want to play 1 Coiling Oracle?

[Julian23]

Definitely not. I'm even temtped to just cut Leovold entirely again. Unlike all other splashes in Elves, the blue splash for Leovold is the first one that's about a card heavily involved in Wasteland-based matchups. I usually do have it, but most of the time just because of Cavern. It's really annoying having to be even more concerned about colors than we already are.

[blind]

And what is your feedback about Leovold exactly? :)

[Prdgychild]

Definitely not. I'm even temtped to just cut Leovold entirely again. Unlike all other splashes in Elves, the blue splash for Leovold is the first one that's about a card heavily involved in Wasteland-based matchups. I usually do have it, but most of the time just because of Cavern. It's really annoying having to be even more concerned about colors than we already are.

I have been playing leovold for last 4 weeks, about 50 games, and only 2x was I unable to cast him when I wanted to because of mana. I play 2 caverns and no trop. I'm just not sold that he is better than another land, ranger, or WRP.

[abombdiggity]

I have been playing leovold for last 4 weeks, about 50 games, and only 2x was I unable to cast him when I wanted to because of mana. I play 2 caverns and no trop. I'm just not sold that he is better than another land, ranger, or WRP.

I have about 20 or so games vs miracles with leovold (also 2 caverns), and there have only been a handful of occasions where WRP wouldn't have been better. WRP is also gas against Eldrazi, and although I haven't tested him against anything running wasteland WRP's probably stronger in those matchups- both due to his casting cost and that he survives lightning bolt. He's certainly a powerful card, but I don't think leovold makes the cut in a 3-4 NO build.