All B/R update speculation.

[HSCK]

I'm not sure what Miracles decks you've been playing or which pilots you follow but Shardless and Eldrazi are def not unfavorable for Miracles, though Eldrazi might be a little ahead. Shardless is absolutely unfavored against Miracles and has been for awhile now.

[Crimhead]

Maybe Shardless has become softer to Miracles.

Are you actually claiming that Miracles is 50/50 or better vs every tier one deck, or are you just nit-picking?

Some poeple might tell you Miracles is slightly unfavourable vs D&D and/or Lands. Depending on the build, they'd be right.

What I'm arguing is that Miracles has MUs vs tier one decks which are worse than 50/50.

[Lemnear]

Everyone has their MB and SB targeted at Miracles as the clear top dog of the format and yet no one of the other DtB is able to claim Miracles as their favorable matchups.

That fact should ring some bells

[btm10]

Wow, I've been missing out on so much fun all this time!



What you're really saying is- "If miracles gets banned out of existence, what other control deck can exist and have even to favorable match ups across the board?". WHICH IS THE DAMN PROBLEM! The whole point of people arguing for a miracles ban is there shouldn't be a deck that has even or favorable match ups with legit every other tier 1 deck in the format. Every other deck in the format has bad cards in certain match ups, hence the whole point of a sideboard. Your last sentence is pure speculation.

We don't know what people can come up with until we are forced to change. No one is brewing control decks because its just worse miracles. For 4+ years now

First, Miracles has been a problem for, depending on when exactly you think it became a problem, between 6 months and 2 years (either from the release of Treasure Cruise or GP Columbus) any point before Cruise is almost indefensible if you look at the data.

Let's not forget that I'm broadly in agreement with you here. Something really should be done about Miracles, I'm just of the opinion that it should be nerfed rather than killed in the interest of preserving strategic diversity. Where I disagree with you (and, it seems, Megadeus) is that I don't think Miracles is what's driving other control decks out of the format - most Landstill variants have great Miracles matchups - it's that the answers other control decks have can't cover the range of threats the format presents.

I'm not sure what Miracles decks you've been playing or which pilots you follow but Shardless and Eldrazi are def not unfavorable for Miracles, though Eldrazi might be a little ahead. Shardless is absolutely unfavored against Miracles and has been for awhile now.

This is total nonsense. My win rate with Shardless has gone up perceptibly (~5-10%) since people started switching to Mentor.

[Stuart]

Maybe Shardless has become softer to Miracles.

Are you actually claiming that Miracles is 50/50 or better vs every tier one deck, or are you just nit-picking?

Some poeple might tell you Miracles is slightly unfavourable vs D&D and/or Lands. Depending on the build, they'd be right.

What I'm arguing is that Miracles has MUs vs tier one decks which are worse than 50/50.

I think Miracles used to be worse against Shardless and Eldrazi, but the inclusion of Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Moat* has tipped the balance. That's my biggest issue with the deck: its shell is so flexible that it can adapt to whatever the field's doing and still come out on top.

*Disclaimer: I have no idea if this is true for Shardless, but it's certainly whacked Eldrazi and other Chalice decks.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Predict helps.

Also the MU was never that positive for Shardless in my experience. It had the hands that overwhelmed miracles but Miracles can grind the game out well and the deck has several bombs built into the deck (Mentor, Jace, and Entreat) that are pretty good against shardless

As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.

[btm10]

Predict helps.

Also the MU was never that positive for Shardless in my experience. It had the hands that overwhelmed miracles but Miracles can grind the game out well and the deck has several bombs built into the deck (Mentor, Jace, and Entreat) that are pretty good against shardless.

The Predict/Entreat builds are by far the scariest from my testing. I agree that the matchup was never a blowout; I don't think it was ever much better than 55/45. The Predict/Entreat builds seem to be about even with Shardless.

As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.

Thank you.

[HSCK]

The Predict/Entreat builds are by far the scariest from my testing. I agree that the matchup was never a blowout; I don't think it was ever much better than 55/45. The Predict/Entreat builds seem to be about even with Shardless.



Thank you.

Again, I have no idea who other people play against or what builds they're using, but the Predict version makes Shardless feel pretty comfortable. It's a grind, but Miracles will easily outgrind that match up now.

[Megadeus]

Predict helps.

Also the MU was never that positive for Shardless in my experience. It had the hands that overwhelmed miracles but Miracles can grind the game out well and the deck has several bombs built into the deck (Mentor, Jace, and Entreat) that are pretty good against shardless

As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.

I agree with this. Basically any time I see a control deck I think, is this better than miracles? And it's always no. Sure landstill is favored against miracles themselves, but they are much worse against much of the field. And yes I understand that pure aggro was pushed out before miracles, but miracles existing keeps it from ever even attempting a comeback. Terminus is the problem card other than the obvious Brainstorm. It gives miracles that catch all creature sweeper that is cheap and instant speed, and due to the nature of the card also forces you into the miracles shell. If there was reason to believe that maybe on a given day that EE, or pyroclasm, or supreme verdict were the best sweeper to play you could consider different control shells, but when you play those cards and you're essentially wrong because they aren't terminus, that's when it's an issue to me.

[Dice_Box]

We have been on this treadmill before. Start from this post:

For the year of 2013 (just before Miracles took over) Blade Control or Patriot Blade was a DTB 9 out of the 12 months that year.

[Megadeus]

We have been on this treadmill before. Start from this post:

I forgot about blade decks. When was the last time a blue blade deck was a DTB?

[Dice_Box]

August last year.

[Meekrab]

What you're really saying is- "If miracles gets banned out of existence, what other control deck can exist and have even to favorable match ups across the board?". WHICH IS THE DAMN PROBLEM! The whole point of people arguing for a miracles ban is there shouldn't be a deck that has even or favorable match ups with legit every other tier 1 deck in the format.

This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?

I can see the logic behind the "ban Top because it makes long tournaments miserable" argument. I can't see the logic behind the "ban top because it enables a control deck that isn't awful" argument. If you ban all the control decks you end up with a crap format like Modern where rounds either last 15 minutes or 55 because the only viable archetypes are aggro-combo and prison.

[nedleeds]

I forgot about blade decks. When was the last time a blue blade deck was a DTB?

When people stopped copying them off the internet and started copying Miracles off the internet instead. Maybe they could print control cards that were really good against Miracles and weren't awful against other internet decks, then people could sleeve them, and cast them. <looks to the sky for guidance>

[Lemnear]

This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?.

It doesn't lose to Tier 1.5/2 strategies as this thread just mentioned when pointing to B2B and Bloodmoon.

[warai]

This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?

I can see the logic behind the "ban Top because it makes long tournaments miserable" argument. I can't see the logic behind the "ban top because it enables a control deck that isn't awful" argument. If you ban all the control decks you end up with a crap format like Modern where rounds either last 15 minutes or 55 because the only viable archetypes are aggro-combo and prison.

I can't see the logic behind both arguments. An inexperienced player will take a considerable amount of time spinning the top. However, you can always ask the player to play faster or call a judge.

Is clear at this stage that SDT is not an incredibly overpowered card, otherwise it would be played in more than 2 archetypes - Miracles/Nic Fit. SDT is a card that rewards decision making at fast speed. Any player that is slow on big tournaments would end up in the drawing bracket facing other slow players, which would likely mean they are not going to do great anyway. There are plenty of players that love Miracles and playing full control in legacy. Do we really want to end up with a crap format like Modern by banning the good control stuff?

Also, its more than time we get Survival of the Fittest in the format back!! By the time the card was banned there was no Deathrite Shaman, no Rest in Peace and no Abrupt Decay...

[Stevestamopz]

Also, its more than time we get Survival of the Fittest in the format back!! By the time the card was banned there was no Deathrite Shaman, no Rest in Peace and no Abrupt Decay...

Stop talking sense, this is the b/r thread. We have to be mean and condescending to each other for having even the slightest of difference in opinion.

[Lemnear]

It sounds like you want to bring a deck which will always function as intended regardless of what strategy your opponent brings to the table?

No, it would be simply nice to be able to combat these strategies with sideboard cards which do not get conceptionally fucked over by the enemy deck.

Trying to dodge Chalice by running 2cc/3cc removal, if Chalice is ran alongside Wasteland and Thorn, is as successful as battling Belcher with Sanctum Prelate.

I can't see the logic behind both arguments. An inexperienced player will take a considerable amount of time spinning the top. However, you can always ask the player to play faster or call a judge.

Dont have me quote the Judge from Julians article on the matter

[Dice_Box]

Is clear at this stage that SDT is not an incredibly overpowered card, otherwise it would be played in more than 2 archetypes - Miracles/Nic Fit.

I am going to guess you have not played against Painter then. Also Doomsday and Storm run it. Doomsday all the time, Storm off and on.

The thing about Top is how synergistic it is with a whole bunch of other cards. If your argument that Top on its own is not a problem, then as someone who spent over a year on Painter, I agree. If your argument is that Top in Miracles is not a problem, I disagree.

Top with the Miracle mechanic, Counterbalance and Fetches is a real time sink. Watching someone with a set of three or more open Fetches try and abuse Counterbalance is not quick. Watching someone spin to counter a spell, spin again to counter another and then spin again to draw eats up time.

Top is an engine in Miracles, not just a card selection tool. That's why it's so promptly positioned in that deck. The reason it sees less play elsewhere is due to the decks being built in different ways that let them abuse other cards. For example, Elves would not play Top, it has a plan of tutor and draw, not selection. It will seek raw card advantage. Lands does the same. Delver is often Tempo based, choosing to run one mana cantrips over a repeatable two mana one.

Also, might be wrong, but doesn't Landstill play Top sometimes too?

[Lemnear]

Also, its more than time we get Survival of the Fittest in the format back!! By the time the card was banned there was no Deathrite Shaman, no Rest in Peace and no Abrupt Decay...

While we are at it, can we have Yawgmoths Will? It SURE is now fair with DRS, RIP and Flusterstorm /s