I really don't like Sire against D&T. Sure Turn 1 on the play it's probably the win and they can't bounce him.with Karakas, but u never want him on the draw, because he can be blocked from Mother like forever, and from the side they bring in Path to Exile, so more outs to topdeck with 1 land in play.Originally Posted by tarmogoat
Am I alone in feeling that Chancellor of the Annex is the worst re-animation target? Spending your entire hand on a T1 Chancellor presents both the slowest clock and the most disruptable plan, as you aren't pressuring your opponent enough to close the game out. It's only advantageous on the play as counter protection, and on the draw it doesn't protect against Surgical Extraction or counters anyways. There are a lot of decks that I end up cutting them against because it just isn't an effective threat on its own. On the draw, I'd rather just Thoughtseize/Unmask my opponent to strip their hate and Decay whatever they manage to drop.
The deck seems to work best when your opener has:
- Fast mana (Petal or Chrome Mox or Ritual)
- Bin effect (Griselbrand + Looting or Entomb)
- Re-animation spell (Reanimate OR Exhume if you have a Ritual)
- Chancellor
Without all of those at once, I'd rather try and strip my opponents hand while I draw into what I need than half-combo out, and drawing into Chancellor feels really bad. I'm coming around to Unmask being a far superior build, as a 0-mana bin effect significantly reduces your need for the "right" kind of fast mana. I'm also considering Chrome Mox over Simian Spirit Guide, as the fact that some of your fast mana only casts Looting is a big problem.
It's just to illustrste that BR's weakest plan is still very strong against D&T, as they have to draw stp to kill the threat and restart the game, or mom and survive up to next turn to efficiently block. While they have those draws live, we have reanimations, entombs and fattys live. The point is, even the worst t1 from BR can easily kill D&T, and UB reanimator is somewhat a good match for D&T, so the point needs to be made.
"Ach! Hans, run! It's the Lhurgoat!"
On the play I find Chancellor to be a good start vs. any opponent; don't underestimate them having to pay 2 for their first spell and a force spike for everything after that until the Chancellor is gone. Now, on the draw it definitely doesn't feel as strong and will usually reanimate Griselbrand or a Tidespout if I have the option to do so.
And I just started testing a build with 4 Unmask and 3 Collective Brutality. This combination seems to be pretty effective so far in about 25 games on paper. Still haven't been able to bring myself to buy the Unmasks online.
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What did you cut to support that? What does it set your MD to?
He said in earlier post he was playing a list close to the chiba, Id imagine, he dropped down on 1 animate or a few SSG's.
I have been circling a similar choice as my maindeck seems pretty set to run 4 SSG, with a red sideboard, I still need to test the white sideboard, but honestly, most of the tweaks are more meta based than a deck id take to a large event.
My Sideboard is currently running these flex spots (local meta):
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Massacre/Surgical/ashen rider - DnT was big, now its less so, surgical hits the turbo depths/other reanimator and combo guys/2 people on show and tell out of 20, but wotc software always makes me play vs both, so ashen rider ?
My discard package is currently. (I have been happy with it)
2 CB
1 Unmask
2 TS
Collective Brutality two feels about right, a third is nice sometimes, but I don't think I want it over the unmask/thoughtseize it would replace
Thoughtseize general catchall good card, I run two, was thinking of a third before I added CB, now its fighting with the unmask spots
Unmask its faster, its free, but after the opening turns I want to see it less than thoughtseize just because being able to pitch a card is sometimes a issue.
Other thoughts were:
CB to the sideboard up unmask to 3/2 split with thoughtseize.
Drop thoughtseize for 3 MD Unmask
Regardless, I still want 2 CB in my 75 100% of the time, so if it go pushed to sideboard then I am losing two of my flex spots.
I have only been losing the lands in the finals recently, but maybe when I win a dice roll and they don't always have turn 1 mana bond/exploration/loam/ dark depths/stage/crop rotation/fetch as the first 7 cards I can win with my turn 1 gb
PS @ earlier post about tidespout: He needs to be in the main deck, if you want that iona in main deck consider dropping a sire
Why that? There are only 2 matchups where I really want him als favorite reanimationtarget, Mirror and Lands. And against those two decks I can side him in. It's definitly a good card, but his spot is imo better in the sideboard. Im UB I can unterstand playing him main, but with free counter + 8 cantrips they can support him much better. In most cases out hand is empty, when we got the fattie on the battlefield.
Tidespout is a great answer when you're stuck in a tough spot.
He's also pretty good against Eldrazi, getting around Karakas, against Delver decks that slowed you down. I don't think he's the first target you want, but if you didn't start off with a Chancelor, or they got around that and countered your turn 1, he's pretty helpful.
Anytime I've been in a tight spot, Tidespout saves the day. I almost never board him out because he's a game changer.
Maybe fringe use, but I have used him to bounce defending creatures/artifacts that people have even in game 1, also recently bounced my own land so I could replay it and make enough mana, Hes just too useful.
Sorry for the late reply been a crazy couple days for me. From the Chiba list I removed 1 Animat e Dead and 1 Sire of Insanity.
Currently, I keep going back and forth on the Simian Spirit Guides. I really like the explosiveness potential of them but I like having more reanimation targets as well. Here's my current main without the SSG's:
4 Chancellor
4 Griselbrand
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Ashen Rider
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Animate Dead
3 Collective Brutality
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Badland
2 Swamp
This has been playing pretty well for me in testing as well. The Ashen Rider is in the main because I've always like having that available in the Lands matchup g1 to get rid of Maze, Stage, Depths or Marit Lage. Empryial is another card I've really liked vs. D&T, burn and the delver decks since it's a big blocker and very hard for them to remove.
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Seems if you play unmask you need to cut either CB, Thoughtseize or spirit guides. I'm struggling with this as well. Unmask was better than I expected but I still miss the spirit guides for explosive hands and Thoughtseize is such a good card, makes it hard to cut.
Been thinking of cutting a sire and an Animate Dead for a couple brutality and then add in the guides or thoughseizes but really impossible to find room for both. Also, ssg is quite good for those who are playing sneak attack in the sb. Maybe the 4x Thoughtseize can go into the board? Are they even needed if they are not in the main?
I find the Thoughtseize feels unnecessary if you're running Unmask/CB. I definitely am considering adding the SSGs back in; just not sure what to cut. From my previously posted MB I'd probably cut the Empryial Archangel, a Sire, a fetch land and maybe 1 CB.
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Some random thoughts on SSG and Unmask and another fast mana option, Chrome Mox
SSG Pros:
- You can dagger blue players by paying for Daze
- Enables Faithless Looting pre-land-drop
- Can't be countered
Chrome Mox Pros:
- Produces black mana, lets you cast everything else in your deck
Having a fast mana source that doesn't produce black seems really awkward. If you have SSG in your opener, you still need a land and either Petal or Ritual to Entomb + re-animate, so it only enables you to Turn 1 if you either Loot and are able to put a creature in the graveyard, or you're using an Exhume/AD and didn't have a Ritual.
Chrome Mox, on the other hand, can produce black almost always, and red if you exile a Sire of Insanity. You're losing a card, but if you're going for a T1 play you likely have one to spare. Look at these T1 plays, and remember that Unmask + black card is way more likely to be in your opener than exactly SSG + Looting
Unmask on self = fatty in graveyard, now you have 4 of your top 7 in hand
SSG => Looting = fatty in graveyard, now you have 5 of your top 9 in hand
Land/Petal => Reanimate
Land => Ritual => Exhume/AD
Land + Petal => Exhume/AD
Chrome Mox + black card => Re-animate
Land + Chrome Mox + black card => Exhume/AD
If you're running SSG, you're implicitly using Faithless Looting to put cards into your GY rather than self-discard or Entomb, and if that's the case you may not be able to afford to exile cards to Chrome Mox or Unmask, as you may need to actually cast them.
Got my new decklist together. It's pretty standard I believe with the exception of a weird land or two to facilitate a flexible sideboard. Let me know if I'm missing any cards that should be considered in the sideboard or if you have strong arguements against my 60. Always love getting feedback towards improving my deck(s). (:
13 Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
9 Creatures
4x Chancellor of the Annex
3x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Sire of Insanity
10 Fast Mana
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
12 Reanimation Spells
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
16 Support
4x Entomb
4x Faithless Looting
4x Unmask
2x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
Sideboard (All potential cards I may use... I always build out the sideboard on site/just before the tournament)
Ancient Tomb
Ashen Rider
Blazing Archon
Blood Moon
Collective Brutality
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Empyrial Archangel
Faerie Macabre
Grave Titan
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Massacre
Pithing Needle
Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
Show and Tell
Sneak Attack
Stronghold Gambit
Wear // Tear
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
A little curious, are there big advantages pre-board to using B/R vs U/B if you're not running Simian Spirit Guide? for the most part you're replacing Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will with Unmask, more reanimation, and different fatties, right? Careful Study serves the same purpose as Faithless Looting aside from a lack of flashback.(though admittedly I don't know how often the flashback comes up, probably more often than I think)
I rather like B/R post-board though because Stronghold Gambit is pretty cool, especially with all the discard we run. REB/Pyroblast is also sweet.
The reason that I go for BR versus UB:
1. It's faster - It'll race most combo decks and outrace some hate.
2. It's resilient - It doesn't just *poof* get shut down like a lot of different combo decks. If you flop or get shut down, you can often go for it a turn or two later (or even in the same turn) quite easily.
3. It's protected - Why exile a card to counter a spell when you can just reveal Chancellor of the Annex T0 and combo off safely?
4. It's flexible - You can really build it with any splash, or none at all. It has access to all the sideboard cards it needs to fight hate in game 2/3 proactively and re-actively. It can also go into different colors to avoid some hate.
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
I don't think u need Wear // Tear AND Show and Tell in the Sideboard. They're both answers for the same problems. When you cut the Usea or Scrubland u have space for the third Badlands. Also why only 9 creatures? With Collective Brutality main I'd definitly run 10-11.
This might be a dumb question, but vs Counterbalance, does a split card like Wear//Tear get countered to a one drop or two drop regardless of what spell you cast?
Also, what is the upside of Red Elemental Blast over Pyroblast. It seems like the latter is the better card.
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@Quentin - I don't run all those cards as my sideboard, just possible cards.
I didn't mention it, but I definitely swap either the scrubland or the sea for a badlands based on my sideboarding.
I like collective brutality in the main because it's a protected way to get a fatty in the yard. It takes a counterspell every time regardless of whether it resolves and sets up for powerful plays. Which fatties do you feel I should include additionally beyond what I have? The fourth grisel is the only one I feel I could include that isn't there right now.
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
Pyroblast is easier to redirect as it can target anything. Decks often run a combination of the 2 in case things like Meddling Mage or Nevermore are played.
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