Miracle Control

[lordofthepit]

TL;DR So which do we play? Blood Moon, Back to Basics, or From the Ashes? Each have their strengths and weaknesses. Blood Moon shut off fetches but can be a complete game ender against some decks. Back to Basics is more manageable, is still capable of ending the game, but forces you to make your mana base worse by playing Basic Mountain or having to waste a sideboard slot (if you play only 20 lands maindeck) for it. If you play Basic Mountain, how many Volcanic Island do you play along side of it? I've heard you want 3 red mana sources in your 75. Is that true?

They're all pretty solid. The important thing is they all fuck Eldrazi.

[drocker23]

I've heard/read that Back to Basics is the strongest option vs Eldrazi. not sure if it's better or worse than Blood Moon in other matchups. But the entire reason Back to Basics is even in the deck to begin with is because of Eldrazi.

[hyp3r1on]

The choice of specific "Land Hate" is a contentious issue. What I believe is: If your Miracles list is designed to durdle like with Joe's build or a strict Ponder/Entreat build - Back to Basics is the more robust hate card. From the Ashes is stronger if your game plan is centered around Mentor since you can FTA them and quickly aggro Eldrazi out with Mentor before they can recover their manabase. The biggest weakness with Back to Basics is that it does not affect Eye of Ugin and it sometimes can hinder your own mana (namely red sources). From The Ashes's is weak because its a 4 mana sorcery that can get Warping Wailed.

Blood Moon in my opinion is just bad and is strictly inferior to both B2B and FTA. Shutting down your own ability to shuffle is just too much of a liability too much of the time. I've seen more players lose to their own Blood Moon than it completely lock out their opponent as intended.

In my list, I've played x2 Back to Basics for sometime and have been very happy with them. Too many players playing with B2B bring them in against stuff like Shardless/Aluren/Bant etc which is just way bad and way wrong. B2B is only in the list for basically Eldrazi but has added utility against Lands and fringe decks like 12post/MUD etc. I also will bring in both Back to Basics against Omni Tell variants as a hedge against Boseiju, but its also a blue card for FoW and you have enough dead cards in the main deck anyways. Also keep in mind that Back to Basics is a lot worse against "Ghost Quarter Lands" than older builds.

Oh, and:

[twndomn]

The choice of specific "Land Hate" is a contentious issue. What I believe is: If your Miracles list is designed to durdle like with Joe's build or a strict Ponder/Entreat build - Back to Basics is the more robust hate card. From the Ashes is stronger if your game plan is centered around Mentor since you can FTA them and quickly aggro Eldrazi out with Mentor before they can recover their manabase. The biggest weakness with Back to Basics is that it does not affect Eye of Ugin and it sometimes can hinder your own mana (namely red sources). From The Ashes's is weak because its a 4 mana sorcery that can get Warping Wailed.

I've also heard that Venser bouncing B2B at opponent's Turn to free your own tapped lands and then replay B2B on your own turn using Basic is a good play.

[Poron]

not so sure.. it's Karakas +4+3 mana every turn to do that

At that point just keep the 8 mana around and play your deck

[Noloam_]

Back to basics is by far the biggest hatebear vs us. I am also a miracle player in paper. i do play 1 moon and 1 from the ashes. i think they also do the trick and are better in other matches

[Poron]

hatebear vs us? We play it.

Overall hatebear is a term meaning the typical 2/2 creature packed with some kind of hate ability (Teeg, Priest, Canonist, Meddling Mage)..

[Arianeira]

@drocker23
3 snaps is the standard unless you really need room and see lots of Deathrite Shaman

I been playing Nahiri Miracles on MTGO since May and go 4-1 or 3-2 in leagues most of the time. It is good online because Miracles and Eldrazi are over represented online versus paper. Nahiri is good in Miracles mirrors where it can remove counterbalance, or flip as a 4 to counter their Jace. Against Eldrazi, Nahiri can kill their tapped creature which is important when they have warping wail to hit your terminus and chalice for swords. Nahiri Ultimate is usually faster then setting up an Entreat but Mentor can be faster. If Nahiri could kill untapped artifacts I probably would play it in paper. In paper you have to play Delver, Death and Taxes and combo more where you do not want Nahiri. D+T is not played on MTGO cause Port is super expensive.

Miracles challenge
main deck
-1 Predict
-1 Ponder
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Mountain

Predict can be good 3 Ponder is enough. Ran 1 Volc, 1 Mountain when I do run main deck mountain. It is pretty important against Shardless or blue decks with Wasteland and TNN to be able to blast Ancestral Visions or TNN.

Sideboard really depends on your meta.
Either +1 Back to basics or +1 Vendilion Clique

Eldrazi is one of your worst match ups this wins against them as long as you can deal with their board. You want 2 so you draw one. Alternative is to run Moat.

If you see alot of combo you want 3 cliques so you draw one to disrupt them and get a clock in play.

Blood Moon, Back to Basics, or From the Ashes really depends on what you want to beat and your meta.

I really dislike Blood Moon because it does nothing to the board, nerfs your fetches and you have to time it since they can float mana and Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip it, or play a Rachet bomb or all is dust and kill it

Back to Basics depends on how much you play Eldrazi.

From the Ashes. Don't like this either. Gets hit by Warping Wail. Harder to resolve though Daze + Spell Perice costing 4. Requires you have Red. They get a basic so lands gets their forest and if they have a mox diamond they can still Loam.

@Chaosjace
Really depends on the meta, Rest in Peace is better against Dredge but Surgical removing all Life from the Loam or a combo piece can be game winning.

[Noloam_]

hatebear vs us? We play it.

Overall hatebear is a term meaning the typical 2/2 creature packed with some kind of hate ability (Teeg, Priest, Canonist, Meddling Mage)..

hatecard whatever

[drocker23]

Is spell snare worth the 2nd counterspell spot?

how many of you are running 21 lands? what card did you cut to fit in 21 lands, engineered explosives and council's judgment?

[polski]

@drocker23
3 snaps is the standard unless you really need room and see lots of Deathrite Shaman

I been playing Nahiri Miracles on MTGO since May and go 4-1 or 3-2 in leagues most of the time. It is good online because Miracles and Eldrazi are over represented online versus paper. Nahiri is good in Miracles mirrors where it can remove counterbalance, or flip as a 4 to counter their Jace. Against Eldrazi, Nahiri can kill their tapped creature which is important when they have warping wail to hit your terminus and chalice for swords. Nahiri Ultimate is usually faster then setting up an Entreat but Mentor can be faster. If Nahiri could kill untapped artifacts I probably would play it in paper. In paper you have to play Delver, Death and Taxes and combo more where you do not want Nahiri. D+T is not played on MTGO cause Port is super expensive.

Miracles challenge
main deck
-1 Predict
-1 Ponder
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Mountain

Predict can be good 3 Ponder is enough. Ran 1 Volc, 1 Mountain when I do run main deck mountain. It is pretty important against Shardless or blue decks with Wasteland and TNN to be able to blast Ancestral Visions or TNN.

Sideboard really depends on your meta.
Either +1 Back to basics or +1 Vendilion Clique

Eldrazi is one of your worst match ups this wins against them as long as you can deal with their board. You want 2 so you draw one. Alternative is to run Moat.

If you see alot of combo you want 3 cliques so you draw one to disrupt them and get a clock in play.

Blood Moon, Back to Basics, or From the Ashes really depends on what you want to beat and your meta.

I really dislike Blood Moon because it does nothing to the board, nerfs your fetches and you have to time it since they can float mana and Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip it, or play a Rachet bomb or all is dust and kill it

Back to Basics depends on how much you play Eldrazi.

From the Ashes. Don't like this either. Gets hit by Warping Wail. Harder to resolve though Daze + Spell Perice costing 4. Requires you have Red. They get a basic so lands gets their forest and if they have a mox diamond they can still Loam.

@Chaosjace
Really depends on the meta, Rest in Peace is better against Dredge but Surgical removing all Life from the Loam or a combo piece can be game winning.

can you share your list?

[twndomn]

Is spell snare worth the 2nd counterspell spot?

Yes. Lossett runs Snare, therefore you should at least give it a try.

how many of you are running 21 lands? what card did you cut to fit in 21 lands, engineered explosives and council's judgment?

21 here, 21 with CJ and EE in the 60.

[drocker23]

21 here, 21 with CJ and EE in the 60.

What card did you cut to make room

[twndomn]

What card did you cut to make room

Your "Deck: Miracles Project (62)" list, -1 Predict -1 Ponder, then swap out a Volc for Mountain.

[CutthroatCasual]

Blood Moon in my opinion is just bad and is strictly inferior to both B2B and FTA. Shutting down your own ability to shuffle is just too much of a liability too much of the time. I've seen more players lose to their own Blood Moon than it completely lock out their opponent as intended.

And I've seen more players have a B2B do literal nothing because if it's not coming down when an opponent is tapped out, it doesn't help. Blood Moon can just fuck up an opponent's day even if they're not tapped out. I've casted a Moon against a Shardless player with GB represented, but since they didn't have the Decay in hand at the time they just lost on the spot. And same goes for against Infect (they can find their KGrips and still hit their land drops and then take out your B2B, where if you had a Moon they're cut off blue for the rest of the game). And DDFT, where if you have B2B they just hold 1 non-basic black source open for the rest of the game while they "sculpt" their hand.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: B2B has wider application but is less powerful, Blood Moon has narrower application but is more powerful. Also, if you're getting fucked by your own Moon then you didn't set it up correctly. And yes, you do need to set up Blood Moon. But if you've been fetching basics like you should anyway then that set-up becomes serendipitous in nature.

[hyp3r1on]

And I've seen more players have a B2B do literal nothing because if it's not coming down when an opponent is tapped out, it doesn't help. Blood Moon can just fuck up an opponent's day even if they're not tapped out. I've casted a Moon against a Shardless player with GB represented, but since they didn't have the Decay in hand at the time they just lost on the spot. And same goes for against Infect (they can find their KGrips and still hit their land drops and then take out your B2B, where if you had a Moon they're cut off blue for the rest of the game). And DDFT, where if you have B2B they just hold 1 non-basic black source open for the rest of the game while they "sculpt" their hand.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: B2B has wider application but is less powerful, Blood Moon has narrower application but is more powerful. Also, if you're getting fucked by your own Moon then you didn't set it up correctly. And yes, you do need to set up Blood Moon. But if you've been fetching basics like you should anyway then that set-up becomes serendipitous in nature.

Back to Basics is in my sideboard primarily for Eldrazi. They are literally tapping out on most of their turns to play their threats, so it's very rare to not have them completely tapped out when you land B2B. You're talking about all these situations where you're locking out decks like Infect and Shardless with Blood Moon and trying to compare the two cards on that level. I would never, ever advocate sideboarding in Back to Basics against the decks you're talking about. I will only sideboard in B2B against Eldrazi, Lands, fringe decks like MUD or 12post and Omni Tell variants as a hedge against Boseiju. Also for the record, I don't think Blood Moon is all that effective of a strategy against either Infect or Shardless.

No one is disagreeing with the notion that in a vacuum, Blood Moon is the more powerful card but in terms of Land-hate in Legacy at the moment, Back to Basics is much, much better. When you're playing against Eldrazi you don't have the time to be setting up these perfect Blood Moons where you have all your colours online and some removal lingering around to answer any threats that get through. Not to mention most Eldrazi decks now are more insulated against Blood Moon with stuff like Oblivion Sower. Back to Basics shuts down their mana base and when you draw your fetch lands - you can actually fetch for your basics and find answers for the spells that do get through.

[Echohots]

Hey there, I have been playing legacy for a few years (started
~08/09) and I took about a 2 year break until recently. I've piloted miracles for the last 4 months or so but, unfortunately, the more recent articles in regards to strategy with the deck I have found are around the DTT era. I've read pretty intensely through the thread, but I am curious about what general consensus is for optimal sideboarding. I go about 3-2 or 4-1 in the legacy leagues, but have yet to go 5-0.

I play the following list on MTGO:
Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (5)
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sorcery (10)
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (4)
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (4)
4 Counterbalance

Land (20)
1 Arid Mesa 4 Flooded Strand 4 Island 1 Karakas 2 Plains 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Tundra 2 Volcanic Island
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Izzet Staticaster 1 Ensnaring Bridge 1 Blood Moon 2 Flusterstorm 1 Venser, Shaper Savant 2 Pyroblast 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Surgical Extraction 2 Vendilion Clique 2 Wear // Tear

I am still considering 1 more mentor main and an entreat to the sb, fitting an EE main or sb somewhere, and whether or not to cut bm+venser for 2 B2B.

The online meta consists of a lot of RG/RGB lands, 4c loam, Miracles, rb Reanimator, SneakShow/Omnitell variants, Deathblade variants, Food chain (to me, this is a very hard matchup to win), Grixis/4c delver, Eldrazi, and Alluren. Do people have consistent sb guides they utilize or is there no framework people follow for these sort of matchups? Any, personally suggested, articles on miracles would be helpful, too! Thanks.

[MiraclesWizard]

@oarsman79 takes the SCG Players Championship!

[chaosjace]

Do people have consistent sb guides they utilize or is there no framework people follow for these sort of matchups? Any, personally suggested, articles on miracles would be helpful, too! Thanks.

I am of the opinion that there is no clear cut sideboard strategy, as each sideboard (should IMO) be unique for each persons playstyle, meta, and based on their own personal MD choices. What is giving you problems from those decks? I think that is the angle you want to think about it from. Maybe you need to hold counter spells for game ending cards, maybe run some spell pierce in your main. Your meta seems combo heavy, maybe consider Predict might be slow against that.

[CutthroatCasual]

@oarsman79 takes the SCG Players Championship!

If only Legacy was one of the formats.