For my current list it is:Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk
OUT: -4 Chalice, -4 Thalia, GoT, -1 Thalia, HC, -2 Containment Priest
IN: +3 STP, +2 Orzvoh Pontiff, +1 Elspeth, +2 Disenchant, +2 Stoneforge, +1 Batterskull
= 11 cards
More or less the same, which means cut mainly Chalice & Thalia 2.0 for more Removal and some Bombs.
Sometimes i leave in Containment Priest too but it will be super hard if you face Flickerwisp with your own priest on the field. Elspeth is not the strongest option here, 3rd Smasher or 3rd Palace Jailer would be better but Elspeth is a strong card against a lot of other situations (fly over moat, stalled ground etc.) that i like her as a 1off and overall she is not bad vs DnT if you can avoid Revoker.
Leyline is only really good if you really want to destroy Br Redanimator and other GY Decks - BUT you can't cast them, so you need to mulligan (which will result in mulligan away otherwise good hands with chalice/thalia) they are a very bad topdeck and you need 4 Slots! Br Redanimator will bring stuff like Wear//Tear (cause we play Chalice) and Sneak Attack/Show&Tell (non-GY-cheats) so Leyline will only save you for 1-2 turns. I would prefer Faerie Macabre here, because it blanks permanent Hate that try to answer our various permanet disruption like Chalice, Thalia, RiP etc.
Yes i lost 1:2 to Br Redanimator at my last tournament but overall the matchup isn't that bad because we have a lot of Combo Hate at Main and can cast some cc2 Hate as early as Turn 1. With 2 Containment Priest at my current Main i only run 2 RiP at Side because it should be enough in most cases and you can fight many GY tactics with a lot of other cards. Note: I don't use RiP against Shardless BUG anymore. With Priest i also have 4 cards i can use here, but Priest itself can be used against other decks (Elves, Sneak&Show, creature heavy decks etc.) and even RiP can be a solid topdeck if you start with other permission cards on your starting hand.
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One note about graveyard hate choices is that they should obviously be tailored against the metagame. If you look at recent D+T lists (e.g. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/529528#online), the rise of BR Reanimator has made it more popular to run Surgicals and Faerie Macabres in slots that used to contain Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage. Depending on the composition of the combo component of your metagame, you should tailor your graveyard hate appropriately.
Pretty much what it boils down to. Though to echo what I wrote previously on the Thorn vs Prelate question, this does not only concern graveyard hate but all hate cards in sideboards.
On Leyline vs RiP specifically: The deck already plays T1 interaction with BR reanimator as Chalice, Thalia, Thorn and RiP can be cast T1, so we do not have as much of a need to adapt to the deck as DnT does. You are still dead to their T1 "kills" on the draw though and Chancellor means that even on the play your T1 hate may not be fast enough. Maybe the guy just lost to it three times in a row and decided to make sure that does not happen to him again. Maybe having T0 interaction or T1 interatcion that does not get hit by Chancellor is actually needed to turn the matchup positive, I haven't played against the deck enough to tell. In the dark for an unknown metagame I would still run RiP as it does not need to be mulled into (to be fair you do need to mull into hate against BR wether you run Leyline or not, as hoping to topdeck interaction in the first two turns is not feasible), can be cast T1, can be cast if drawn and offers more against Goyf decks. But if BR continues to rise in popularity and T0 graveyard hate gets more desireable, maybe the question will have to be reconsidered.
As I am going to the GP in a couple weeks, and I happen to have this nasty habit of finding the 2 oops all spells opponents in the room every GP I go to and they just have it every game, I will likely be on the leylines. The card is feasibly castable with a playset of diamonds in the deck, and we really need to be mulling to some turn 1 interaction vs BR reanimator/storm/dredge anyway. That said, I played the deck again last night and even against shardless, I didn't really miss the RIPs, as STP often felt like the better card. Delver is really the only matchup where I'm still trying to figure out the balancing act between chalice and STP.
Agreed on Leyline being a fair choice.
Agreed on RiP not being the nuts against Shardless. I too prefer grindy cards like Elspeth, Displacer, Jailer etc. for that matchup, boarding in only a couple of RiP depending on the space I can find.
Have to disagree on Leyline being feasibly castable with a playset of Diamonds. The odds of having 2 Diamonds by T3 are 13%. Even looking at T10 (!) you get there only around 30%. And these percentages don't even take into account that you also need 3-4 lands in addition to the 2 Diamonds to get to 2BB. Hoping to cast a topdecked Leyline in time for it to be relevant is not feasible but hoping for a miracle. Hardcast Leyline also does not remove cards already in graveyards. So even if you get enough hate pieces to block the graveyard combo decks from killing you before you get to cast Leyline, they can still use the resources already accumulated.
Haha by "feasibly" I meant it in the same vein as a delver deck "feasibly beating a turn 1 blood moon", or normal DnT "feasibly" beating Elves! It is a thing that can technically happen. :P
It's definitely there for combo decks, and to not encourage me to over-board after game 1 vs fair decks that utilize the graveyard.
Well, just 5-0'ed (10-1'ed) a legacy league on MODO. Deck felt really smooth, and while I definitely had some good breaks, I am excited to bring this sweet sweet pile to GP Louisville!
Matches were against: Lands, Death and Taxes (and you knew this guy was committed, because he had ports on MODO), Storm, Miracles, and Sneak and Show.
The list I ran with was what I've been posting plus or minus 1-3 cards.
Creatures:24
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
2 Revoker
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
3 Smasher
Spells:11
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
SB:15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Coercive Portal
1 Reality Smasher
1 Batterskull
1 Thorn of Amethyst
The only big change was swapping the Batterskull to the board in favor of SoFI to the main. This is for a couple of reasons:
1. The sizing is simply not as big of an issue as in DnT. The majority of our creatures are 3+ power, and as such, having a 4/4 just isn't as important.
2. SoFI is a faster clock. Being able to run out and equip an early sword adds 4 haste damage (plus we get to draw a card!). Pressure is just way more important than lifelink in the majority of our matchups.
3. SoFI answers both True-Name and more importantly, Baleful Strix. Having your opponent throw down a strix often brickroads our offense unless we have the option of swinging with the Thalia Brigade. If however, we are able to throw down the sword, our opponent is often just dead. TKS swings for an effective 8, Smasher for 9, and it also allows you to kill off the strix sans removal.
Overall, I was very happy with the sword, and was great to see the deck run smoothly.
Any opinions?
I like the look of that build. If you don't mind I'll have a play around with that list and see how it goes.
Not at all! Enjoy the list and please let me know what you think :)
Congrats on the 5-0, always good to have confidence going into a big event.
I would keep BSkull main for a few reasons -- lifegain is nice when we're hurting ourselves with tomb, we can hardcast it pretty easily after a terminus, and sword imo is too slow for the fast MUs.
It's useful vs Strix, but I think Warping Wail and Palace Jailer are better answers. Speaking of which, I know you don't have access to it online, but just one last attempt to convince you it's one of the best cards in the deck! Playtest it in paper at least once, promise? Haha. Displacer + Jailer is literally cheating.
Every big event I've taken the deck to I've had a hard time with 4 diamond and only 25 land and also had a hard time with Reality Smasher which is why I only play 3 diamond 25 land and 2 smasher. I hope that same luck doesn't come back to bite you since I was screwed drawing mox diamonds instead of land while being ported by D&T and Lands at Eternal Weekend.
Best of luck this weekend! I wish I could make it.
Since I'm locked in on my list (I just don't have the time left to playtest a jailer, and 4 mox diamond has felt right (if at times a bit wonky)), I would like to post a picture of my deck!I love altered cards, and I am pumped to have about a third of the deck completed.The sideboard is obviously in the column to the right of the deck.
Let me know what you think, and I hope some other people are heading there as well!
Played at a legacy side event this Saturday. Only 14 players as a bunch of people who would usually be here were at GP Louisville instead. This is the list I played:
6 Plains
4 Ancient tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
1 City of Traitors
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Restoration Angel
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Peace
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere
Wanted to try out Suppression Field and it really was supposed to be two copies but I couldn't find a second copy. Initially, I wanted a card like Pithing Needle which is good against Miracles and Lands but felt like it was too narrow and I felt like Suppression Field would slow them down more as it can affect multiple cards like Top, Fetchlands, Stage, Maze of Ith, etc.. Also decided to run some Faerie Macabre as I thought that people would want to try BR reanimator for the next few months as it seems like the new hotness at the moment.
The TO decided that the tournament was going to be 5 rounds and results were determined by standings....
Here's how the tournament went for me:
Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0) Win
Round 2: BR Reanimator (2-1) Win
Round 3: MUD (2-0) Win
Round 4: Dredge (1-2) Lose
Round 5: BR Reanimator (2-1) Win
Ended up 3rd as the lowest 4-1 since my tiebreakers were awful as I got paired down on round 2. *sigh*
Notes:
- It was unfortunate that I wasn't able to try out Suppression Field but there was just only 1 Miracles and no Lands in the field that day. Oh well.
- Faerie Macabre was the right call, it won both my BR reanimator games as I could interact with them When I'm on the draw with Chancellor's revealed. Way better than Surgical Extractions as they'd just get countered by Chancellors. If the deck gets more popular, I could see going up to 3 Faerie Macabres.
- Restoration Angel worked like I wanted to. I had multiple games where I was able to flash in the angel to either protect any creature or to get additional triggers off Thought-Knot Seer. The evasion was relevant at times as well.
- Made an embarrasing mistake against BR Reanimator. The opponent was able to reanimate Chancellor on turn 1 and when it was going to deal lethal, I thought I was able to chump block it and then my opponent pointed out that it had flying!! Gotta love how that keyword is buried in the middle of two ginormous paragraphs.
5-0d a Legacy league on Magic Online yesterday with the following list:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
1 City of Traitors
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Was overall very happy with the list. Before this I played the stock version with Mystics main and went 3-2 a couple times before realizing that I board out the package in a lot of matchups. So I decided to try this more streamlined MD with more Revokers which contribute more to the mana denial plan and I think that is the best route to victory in most of your game 1s. I definitely still wanted to have access to the equipment package for the fair decks though. The 26th land was also fantastic, it doesn't seem like much but when you're playing Mox Diamond you don't mind having extra lands and it just ran very smooth. Also I was able to use that extra land to play a utility land(Factory) that I don't see a lot of lists running. I am at work right now and don't have a ton of time but I just wanted to throw this out there for now and start a discussion on this approach. I will certainly write another more in-depth reply when I have some more time.
So.... how'd the GP go?
Given the results we saw in the t8 and the day 2 breakdown is anyone wanting to run some cards like Council's Judgement as a non-targeted way to get rid of Leovold? In the GP Denver 25k I actually didn't have that hard of a time beating Leovold Deathblade with just a Karakas. They drew from me Karakas bouncing it, but them spending 3 mana a turn to draw a card was something I was completely fine with.
Anyways, with over 50% of the top decks being Miracles/Delver/Sneak&Show seems this deck should crush that pretty easily, curious to hear about the MUs people faced.
From my testing with the GP winning deck, Leovold wasn't the problem, it was their True-Names. This wasn't surprising given how D&T and Eldrazi Stompy are both very weak to True-Name decks. The best we can do is disrupt their mana to delay TNN coming down and hope we can resolve a Smasher to get through it. Which is hard given their 8 mana dorks. If they have multiple TNNs though, or one wielding a Jitte, it gets really tough.
I thought of Council's Judgment too but isn't the double white in the casting cost a bit much?
So been playing this deck for a while now and just stumbled on this thread a couple of days ago.
Oddly as @Doomwake said I have been trying with the Stoneforge in the board plan to try and streamline the main deck but always opt for the 4 Revoker as its too good at its job.
Here's what Ive been running the last 2 weeks:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dismember
2 Thorn of Amethyst
5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
1 City of Traitors or Sea Gate Wreckage or Factory *seriously I have changed this flex spot 40 times* Right now in the SFM in the board I like the COT as it gives you 9 ways to make your turn 1 more explosive and while not a exact math but is the proper number to ensure the odds for one of them to be in your starting hand.
Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Disenchant or 1 and 1 Rest in Peace
Essentially I moved the Amethyst's to the main to make room for Disenchants which I want to have access to becoming a little more like the Vintage counterpart I run.
And running Council's or Sactum or even Jailers are bad at WW. Every time I try them I either never hit them on time consistently or have to butcher the mana base to a point where I should just play D&T / Eldrazi which I don't wanna do. And while Holy Light is good it also sadly hits are Revokers which are usually on Jace or Lilly or DRS so thats no bueno.
Our best option for TNN is Sword of Fire and Ice period since we already have the SFM package. This gives us virtual 4 answer cards in the deck while not the best option still very much viable and at least something vs Moat Spike-Abyss(TNN) who is responsible for like 33% of my loses.
Leo isn't really that much of a issue for the deck but we have Karakas and honestly I will trade 2 for 1 if I must since we have Reality Smasher which requires the same from them and ours hits harder and better.
TNN is a bigger problem I agree, but Leovold makes our Displacers, TKSs and SoFaI plan (which seems to be the current "best" way to counter TNN based on what people have been playing) extremely ineffective and also messes with our CA engines like Copter and Jailer (for those playing it). For those reasons I think it's pertinent to think of cards that answer both TNN and Leovold profitably now that Leovold is going to be included in many more decks. Council's Judgement is the only one I can think of that fits that bill.
As I mentioned, I've had decent success just bouncing Leovold repeatedly with Karakas, but a cleaner answer would be nice.
I never understand this sentiment, we have 16 white sources (12 for Judgement, yes, but D&T only has 13-14 anyway and still runs it) which is more than enough for WW. We're usually not casting Judgement early anyway; the only reason we'd want to is if we're don't have CotV and our opp. leads dork->TNN, but normally If you're having trouble hitting WW you're probably doing better things with your mana anyway since it means you have a sol land draw and are just going to kill them quickly with TKS and Smasher.
Prelate has lost some favor with me and I've switched to Thorns, but Jailer I will always contest is one of the best cards in the deck and should never be completely cut.
My latest thought was changing up the mana base slightly to include caves of kilos and run zealous persecution in the board as a sweeper against x/1's like ttn. I'm not totally sure its worth it mana wise but I'm going to try it out and see especially as caves act as a tri land.
They also run MOM which is one of the key reasons they can afford to miss. When I ran D&T the CJ was to go along with SwordOFI/MOM/Vial/Port... I was always only 75% to cast it on time which was bad enough but I also had vial to use my mana in other ways.
The biggest issue is how its bad with Sol Lands. Essentially it the COT is the last you play or you have to shock yourself and likely on turn 3 at best. Your only 60% to hit this on time as it is with 12 sources and 3 of your sources are able to be Wastelanded. So without going into exact math I am sure you about 50% to cast CJ on time overtime. Assuming you run 2 say over disenchants and were lucky to draw them at the 30% odds to do so then only 50% of that is actually live. You really want to play a 2 of that has a 15% EV in matchups where you truly need it not just a added bonus like vs Miracles. Could I see running 1 over a Disenchant if TNN gets to over 15% of the meta maybe I could try to justify it. But right now Sword is the right play.
I love Palace Jailer and could consider using him again(tried in early versions with Prelate) just sold 3/4 foils I had gotten for Solider Stompy I play for fun cause they went from 3$ to over $20. Its one of those I am not sure what I would cut maybe the 2nd Disenchant or a STP.
Oh boy... it seems we disuss many cards over and over again...
As you can read at my latest tournament report i won a matchup against Leovold even if i have to kill him with Jitte etc. This guy is nasty but not a huge problem, you can still bounce it with karakas or exile it with Jailer or Priest+Displacer. Thalia 2.0 and each Eldrazi can combat his 3/3 Body so enough pressure (a key element of the deck) will also do the job.
I go through the latest posts:
@True Name Nemesis: Best Maindeck card is Reality Smasher, but as i wrote a couple of times, you can also attack with Thalias + Karakas (or additional copies in hand), TKS, double Displacer or pressure them with Jailer-Draws etc. If you wish more Maindeck stuff i would look up for other creatures with Disruption: Aven Mindcensor or Vryn Wingmare to replace some Thalias and gain "Flying" Advantage against stalled grounds. Note: Both are not Eldrazi or Human so it gets harder to cast them sometimes - but overall it should work.
Sideboard-Cards against TNN: If you have Stoneforge you can always try Sword of Fire and Ice but since we are a Chalice.deck most opponents will bring Artifact Removal Game 2 too (and BUG also has a Playset of Decay at Main). With this in mind i would not prefer Equipment as a Solution. I would only run SoFaI if my meta is also infested with Merfolk or Leovold-BUG is the new deck to beat (i don't expect it).
I always run a pair of Orzhov Pontiff (the card is really strong against more than TNN) because "Kill stuff" is better than "let it on the field and try to work around it". It is totally castable without any B-Land, which means Cavern+Mox are enough. Nobody will kill a Cavern if you also have Sollands out, same is true for Mox if you have a real threat on the field. Pontiff has some advantages: it is still a creature, which means you get a blocker and attacker (better with Equipment) and you can make it uncounterable (huge bonus!), since it works with cavern it is also better than a non-creature card withlike Council's Judgment. Keep in mind that you can also abuse Pontiff with Displacer and thanks to "Haunt" he can fire of twice. Judgment itself should also work and has many more targets but works only once - mana is ok if you see it as a mid/lategame spell. Judgment will not always be "live" at turn 2-4. That is the reason i also like Elspeth, Knight-Errant. With 2WW she also is a card you naturally play a little bit later, but with her you can break up stalled boards (pressure also stupid blockers like TNN), fly over Moat and gain advantage against some slower control decks like Miracle, BUG Shardless etc. It is simply the 1off Slot at my Side that is reserved for catch all cards, it can be Elspeth, Judgment or any adjustments that work for a local metagame (i even thought about 3rd Jailer/Smasher).
Conclusion: Pontiff, Elspeth and even Judgment should be played over narrow solutions like Zealous Persecution (and crippling the manabase too)
@BR Redanimator: As i mentioned we have a lot of disruption and the advantage to play cc2 stuff turn 1 which is very important and favours us compared to slower decks like D&T. I am happy with a pair of Containment Priest at main too and i made the choice before everyone jumped to the new kid on the block. Priest brings many advantages at various situations and for me it was better than Revoker 3-4, simply because Revoker may also get enough targets but thanks to his weak body you never can attack/block with him unless the field is clear (and against miracles you will still risk a Snap-Block)... Priest at least can run into Deathrite Shaman&Co, works also on his own and is super strong if you get also Displacer online.
If we see more and more BR Redanimator and you are unhapp with RiP (i don't use it against Shardless anymore etc), we can discuss cards like Faerie Macabre as additional hate. Please avoid stuff like Leyline, because you need 4 Slots, you always have to mulligan for it and you drawing more copies is clearly bad in this deck and each BR Redanimator deck will have cards against it like Wear//Tear, Sneak Attack etc. Chalice, Thalia 1.0 are a solid disruption base, mix in TKS, WWail (lots of sorcery stuff at Reanimator decks) and cards like Priest, Faerie, RiP (and we also have Karakas and a lot of Creature Removal) and you should be ok against this new hyped deck. I also think it will fall apart once the meta has adjusted with the right graveyard hate. It is more or less the same with classic UB Reanimator, Dredge, Ooops All Spells etc - once you are well prepared they are only underdogs and clearly not a deck to beat. Graveyard Combos are predators of the meta game, you have to fear them if you aren't prepared enough and you will also lose if you lack matchup experience because decks aren't common enough.
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