[Primer] BRx Griselbrand Reanimator

[grimfield]

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't thought of it, I'll add it in. It definitely seems like the "best" response to that type of hate, but needing the exact right circumstances (fatty in gy, entomb+exhume in hand) makes it seem like it unfortunately might not come up that often.

I've seen the Pack Rat idea floating around this thread, but did not add it because I haven't seen any results posted yet (although it's entirely possible I missed a post). I'll definitely add it if it turns out to be good. Based purely on theorycrafting though, I don't think it'll be that great. If you manage to get the ball rolling I'm sure it'll be excellent, but 3 mana to activate is a lot, so I'm unsure this get out of control as often as we'd like it to.

Obliterator is something I've considered although I haven't actually tried it yet. My main concerns are a) Dismember (although this is often just a 1-of, so probably not a deal breaker) and more importantly b) resolving a 4 mana spell vs Daze/Force of Will. If it lands though, it probably wins the game on its own more often than not, so it seems like it has a lot of potential.

I have seen desecration demon played as a four drop out of the SB in older mono b lists. Not saying it is better, and obviously awful against some matchups, but maybe worth considering.


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[Jeff]

I have seen desecration demon played as a four drop out of the SB in older mono b lists. Not saying it is better, and obviously awful against some matchups, but maybe worth considering.


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My big issue with all of the black 4 drop things is that they all basically fold to baleful strix, which is pretty disappointing for your alternate win condition.

[jroharo]

My big issue with all of the black 4 drop things is that they all basically fold to baleful strix, which is pretty disappointing for your alternate win condition.

Agreed. How did your triple grave titan testing go?

[Jeff]

Agreed. How did your triple grave titan testing go?

Inconclusive. But for the most part, 6 is just a lot of mana. I've been trying things that cost less and seeing what happens.

[Jeff]

Two different alternate wincons I'm considering now. I know these are stretches, and I haven't tested either, but I'm spitballing here.

Assemble the Legion - Castable in the version with the white splash, though not stupid early because of the colors. Still, it avoids the Baleful Strix problem a lot of the black creatures have. It also lets you chump all of the non-Smasher Eldrazi in a way that builds towards not having to chump anymore, which Bitterblossom doesn't do. Doesn't die to anything anyone is likely to have in against us except maybe disenchant/weartear from Miracles. I'm fine not having this spot live against miracles.

Heartless Summoning. 6 Mana Griselbrand and 4 mana grave titan seems interesting. Grave Titan is a lot less powerful with summoning in play, but in the white splash version casting Elesh Norn would be pretty viable. And against Eldrazi if you drew the W/T you could actaully just destroy your own summoning once you had a threat on the board if it came to that. Thoughts?

What I'm looking for in the alternate wincon slot is something that I can reliably expect to win the game on it's own if it's the only sideboard card I draw and my opponent has hate that stops me from reanimating. I don't like individual threats like Obliterator that much because it's too easy to just lose and have it not do anything, which is what leads me to these two cards. Assemble will literally just win the game on it's own while keeping you alive until it's ticked up enough to do that, and Summoning makes all of the rest of your draws less shitty. At least, that's the theory for both of them.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Two different alternate wincons I'm considering now. I know these are stretches, and I haven't tested either, but I'm spitballing here.

Assemble the Legion - Castable in the version with the white splash, though not stupid early because of the colors. Still, it avoids the Baleful Strix problem a lot of the black creatures have. It also lets you chump all of the non-Smasher Eldrazi in a way that builds towards not having to chump anymore, which Bitterblossom doesn't do. Doesn't die to anything anyone is likely to have in against us except maybe disenchant/weartear from Miracles. I'm fine not having this spot live against miracles.

Heartless Summoning. 6 Mana Griselbrand and 4 mana grave titan seems interesting. Grave Titan is a lot less powerful with summoning in play, but in the white splash version casting Elesh Norn would be pretty viable. And against Eldrazi if you drew the W/T you could actaully just destroy your own summoning once you had a threat on the board if it came to that. Thoughts?

What I'm looking for in the alternate wincon slot is something that I can reliably expect to win the game on it's own if it's the only sideboard card I draw and my opponent has hate that stops me from reanimating. I don't like individual threats like Obliterator that much because it's too easy to just lose and have it not do anything, which is what leads me to these two cards. Assemble will literally just win the game on it's own while keeping you alive until it's ticked up enough to do that, and Summoning makes all of the rest of your draws less shitty. At least, that's the theory for both of them.

Have you considered the Children of Korlis + Tendrils combo at all? You should be able to win outright with a griselbrand then?

[Atherion]

jeff, you said, you tested Bitterblossom, wasn't it good against grixis delver?

[Quasim0ff]

Have you considered the Children of Korlis + Tendrils combo at all? You should be able to win outright with a griselbrand then?

I am fairly certain a straight up Tin Fins list is better then.

[Jeff]

jeff, you said, you tested Bitterblossom, wasn't it good against grixis delver?

I didn't actually test it. I can't even make it good in theory. If they have even just a flipped Delver of Secrets, I'm losing that race. And they'll find a second creature. Bitterblossom takes over the game when you can augment it. It's not gonna do it on it's own against a deck that can pressure your life total like Grixis.

Maybe I'm wrong. And if anyone does test it and finds that it's great, I'm willing to reconsider, but I have limited testing time and it doesn't seem good enough to dedicate the time to at this point.

Have you considered the Children of Korlis + Tendrils combo at all? You should be able to win outright with a griselbrand then?

I'm specifically looking for something that doesn't lose to graveyard hate. I'm not having trouble winning once Griselbrand is in play, at least not a significant enough amount to be worth dedicating sideboard slots to it. I'm just facing Leylines and hands like 2 surgical force, flusterstorm blue card. Against that hand I need a whole lot of stuff to reanimate something, but I only have to answer the force to resolve either of my long shot suggestions.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I didn't actually test it. I can't even make it good in theory. If they have even just a flipped Delver of Secrets, I'm losing that race. And they'll find a second creature. Bitterblossom takes over the game when you can augment it. It's not gonna do it on it's own against a deck that can pressure your life total like Grixis.

Maybe I'm wrong. And if anyone does test it and finds that it's great, I'm willing to reconsider, but I have limited testing time and it doesn't seem good enough to dedicate the time to at this point.



I'm specifically looking for something that doesn't lose to graveyard hate. I'm not having trouble winning once Griselbrand is in play, at least not a significant enough amount to be worth dedicating sideboard slots to it. I'm just facing Leylines and hands like 2 surgical force, flusterstorm blue card. Against that hand I need a whole lot of stuff to reanimate something, but I only have to answer the force to resolve either of my long shot suggestions.

This might be completely crazy but any thoughts on Defense Grid as a line against Surgical? As long as you don't bin the creature before you are ready to "go off", it shouldn't be possible for them to pay the extra mana. Helps against FoW as well but could just be a terrible idea, I haven't tested it, was just trying to think of ways to get around the problem cards you're running into.

Needles I find have been good against Fairies as well, if they're an issue.

I assume you haven't been happy with Sneak Attack, Show and Tell or Stronghold Gambit, as ways over going over the top?

[splorf]

In my opinion a 5CMC Enchantment that first has to build up is way too slow. And Heartless Summoning is kind of clunky, too.

I'd rather stick to Wear // Tear to simply remove the hate and Stronghold Gambit / SnT to bypass it. After testing different approaches, this seemed to be the route to go since our SB is already too narrow to fit in entirely alternative strategies / wincons. We need cards to re-enable our main strategy; hoping to draw sth. to throw in their way until we are able to ritual out a fatty sounds like David vs. Goliath - but without sling this time.

In conclusion: I think disruption is the key.

[Jeff]

This might be completely crazy but any thoughts on Defense Grid as a line against Surgical? As long as you don't bin the creature before you are ready to "go off", it shouldn't be possible for them to pay the extra mana. Helps against FoW as well but could just be a terrible idea, I haven't tested it, was just trying to think of ways to get around the problem cards you're running into.

Needles I find have been good against Fairies as well, if they're an issue.

I assume you haven't been happy with Sneak Attack, Show and Tell or Stronghold Gambit, as ways over going over the top?

Defense Grid and Needles and other ways to attack the cards in their hand suffer from the "What do you cut to bring them in?" issue. I'm playing 8 discard spells main. Those discard spells can already answer faerie and surgical and force, etc. If I'm cutting them to bring in defense grid and needle, then I'm only slightly improving my percentage against those cards, and they're both less versatile than just straight up discard. If I"m not cutting the discard, then I get to a point where my deck is too much interaction and not enough gas. I've had a bunch of hands against delver where I was able to strip their entire hand, but I couldn't combo off, and then they redrew into protection before I found my threats.

That said, I have played Defense Grid with success in ANT before. I could see it being good against Delver. I"m just not sure it's good enough against the rest of the field. Where else do you reliably bring it in?

I like Stronghold Gambit. It's just only good in some matchups. At this point I'm seriously considering running 3 Gambit *and* 3 or 4 of some other alternate wincon. I've got space in the board to do it, so why not? Focus on the best way to beat each matchup. There isn't an alternate wincon that's good against the field, so I'll stop pretending there is.

[Jeff]

In my opinion a 5CMC Enchantment that first has to build up is way too slow. And Heartless Summoning is kind of clunky, too.

I'd rather stick to Wear // Tear to simply remove the hate and Stronghold Gambit / SnT to bypass it. After testing different approaches, this seemed to be the route to go since our SB is already too narrow to fit in entirely alternative strategies / wincons. We need cards to re-enable our main strategy; hoping to draw sth. to throw in their way until we are able to ritual out a fatty sounds like David vs. Goliath - but without sling this time.

In conclusion: I think disruption is the key.

So against Eldrazi, you're content to let them start the game with a Leyline on the board with 3 or 4 ways to remove it in your 60? And no brainstorm/ponder to find them? I'm definitely bringing in the answers and trying to combo off like normal, but it's not like you can mull to wear/tear. I want an alternate wincon, and Gambit has been pretty unreliable against them, especially considering monkeys that get stuck in their hand and can't be played.

[splorf]

So against Eldrazi, you're content to let them start the game with a Leyline on the board with 3 or 4 ways to remove it in your 60? And no brainstorm/ponder to find them? I'm definitely bringing in the answers and trying to combo off like normal, but it's not like you can mull to wear/tear. I want an alternate wincon, and Gambit has been pretty unreliable against them, especially considering monkeys that get stuck in their hand and can't be played.

Against Eldrazi I take out 4 Exhume, 2 Collective Brutality and 1 fatty to board in 4 Stronghold Gambit and 3 W//T. Hand disruption was the key for me so far. Pick their fatties, reanimate them, profit. I don't say this works all the time, but sometimes they have to mull to get their Leylines, which doesn't leave that many creatures in their hand.
I just don't see how an alternate wincon (even as a 4-of) is capable to fight Eldrazi more consistant than banal disruption, which at least supports our main game plan.

[Jeff]

Against Eldrazi I take out 4 Exhume, 2 Collective Brutality and 1 fatty to board in 4 Stronghold Gambit and 3 W//T. Hand disruption was the key for me so far. Pick their fatties, reanimate them, profit. I don't say this works all the time, but sometimes they have to mull to get their Leylines, which doesn't leave that many creatures in their hand.
I just don't see how an alternate wincon (even as a 4-of) is capable to fight Eldrazi more consistant than banal disruption, which at least supports our main game plan.

I'd be talking about something like -4 Exhume, -1 Brutality (I only play 1) -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Wear/Tear +3 Assemble the Legion. And I'm suggesting that because I've tried basically the exact thing you're describing and just died because they had creatures left in their hand that I couldn't get rid of, or because I went for a Gambit when I didn't know and got screwed. Assemble could be the only spell you cast and might still get you there, where gambit or whatnot requires you to also draw discard, or reanimation may require you to also draw wear/tear.

And obviously this is all theory and it might just be terrible. I guess my point is that I've tried what you're suggesting with less success than I'd like, so I'm looking for something better. And you may be right and there isn't anything better.

[splorf]

I'd be talking about something like -4 Exhume, -1 Brutality (I only play 1) -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Wear/Tear +3 Assemble the Legion. And I'm suggesting that because I've tried basically the exact thing you're describing and just died because they had creatures left in their hand that I couldn't get rid of, or because I went for a Gambit when I didn't know and got screwed. Assemble could be the only spell you cast and might still get you there, where gambit or whatnot requires you to also draw discard, or reanimation may require you to also draw wear/tear.

And obviously this is all theory and it might just be terrible. I guess my point is that I've tried what you're suggesting with less success than I'd like, so I'm looking for something better. And you may be right and there isn't anything better.

Again, in this case I still think Assemble the Legion is way too slow and too hard to cast. If Eldrazi is your concern I'd rather try some other weird disruptive tech like Liliana of the Veil or - buckle up! - a ritualed out turn one Royal Assassin.

[Jeff]

Again, in this case I still think Assemble the Legion is way too slow and too hard to cast. If Eldrazi is your concern I'd rather try some other weird disruptive tech like Liliana of the Veil or - buckle up! - a ritualed out turn one Royal Assassin.

The problem with both of those is that they still don't win the game. If they open on Leyline, you still have to find an answer to leyline. They just help you not lose the game until that point. With the number of threats Eldazi can present (plus the fact that they'll still have warping wail in against you for assassin), I don't see you winning those games.

Your concerns are noted, and like I said, you're probably right. But I am going to test it.

[DNSolver]

Bitterblossom seemed fine to me in theory against Delver but in practice it didn't instantly win the game because a) a Deathrite or Delver bought them time or b) Gurmag Angler or True Name Nemesis beat it.

Defense Grid seems fine but doesn't help much against Deathrite... perhaps City of Solitude but that's too expensive.

[Karhumies]

Old school UB animator I used to run around 8 years ago used to transformational SB into helm-line combo to go around sb hate. People should run more Rest in Peace for it to work better, though.

If DRS and Surgical are big in your meta, Oozing animator played with non-targeting Exhume and Shallow Grave with Ground Seal coming in from the SB as a cantripping anti-hate card.

For a very narrow and niche anti-surgical anti-counter option without splashing straight from EDH: Imp's Mischief. Defense Grid should be better, though.

[DNSolver]

Ground Seal isn't as good here because we're playing 8 targeting effects.

Imp's Mischief would be worse than additional discard (this wouldn't be the worst thing to have in the sideboard for the matchup, either Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress?)