Ophdian's not your best bocker nor best draw engine. but it does both, and that is why I think ophi deseves its slot. There are no other blue card that does both as efficiently as ophidian.Originally Posted by Doks
To be fair, ophidian is suboptimal in draw or combat, but MUC needs a slot that does both at the same time.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
I never thought of Ophidian like that. I mean, I technically have thought of the snake in that function, but not in depth. But, does his suboptimal function warrant tapping 3 mana on your turn? This is a big commitment (tapping out on turn 3), and in Legacy, the fundamental turn is usually turn 3-4. If you wait until turn 5 to drop a Phid (with 2 mana open to counter), then you're sacrificing major tempo, just for the potential of having a suboptimal creature serve two functions.
MUC has the possibility of going into two different styles. The new CotV/Mox/TfK build or the tradition Ophid build. I played the tradition Ophid build at the last D4D in Virginia. Ophid was a liability. Yes, he is great when you can get him out and protect him, that rarely happened, but between StP, Bolt, and Chain He rarely lived to give me the advantage. Having a blocker is great, but truth be known he doesn't stabilize the board most games. He was at most a dead draw or a stalling block for a Shackles/Keg/Morphling.
If you want to try the traditional build try the Shoal, its a good card.
Repeal is better than Chain if, i noticed myself constantly siding in the card against aggro. It was vital card that helped me top 8. Chain just has the possibility of too much unknown negative results. As a control players, do you really want to be at the mercy of the other players with ONE OF YOUR SPELLS?
I say Repeal is better, too.
Another not pointed out argument yet is that every dangerous permanent has not a higher CC than 2/3 (Lackey, Werebear, Vial, Worm Tokens, Mongrels, Jitte, Confidant).
Even random decks with their Moxen and Scepter just run into Repeal, causing very huge card advantage.
Doks
If you're playing with the Chrome Mox build, I can see how Repeal would be amazing. Again, it's already been established that the reason we need bounce is to deal with resolved early threats (1-2 turns). But, for Repeal to bounce a 1cc threat, you need two mana available. That's not going to happen if you were on the draw, unless you play a Island + Chrome Mox on one turn. Then you have hope.
You cite Lackey as being an early threat that must be dealt with if resolved, as did I. However, please explain to me what you are going to do with a Repeal if you were on the draw, and you just had a standard Land/Spell hand (no Moxen)? Your opponent on the play and dropping a 1st turn Lackey/Vial is a very real situation where Repeal does absolutely nothing to help you. And expect to see this happen alot (the number of Goblin decks being played, plus the sheer % of them having a 1cc threat in their opening hand, most assuredly after they mulligan to get a 1cc threat in hand).
My thing is, bounce is needed for turn 1-2 resolved threats that (a.) you didn't have enough UU available to use a counter, (b.) must be dealt with immediately (ie: before the resolved threat becomes active). Repeal does not solve the problem of early game threats (especially if you're on the draw), and is quite mana intensive to deal with mid-late game threats (tapping 4 mana to bounce a 3cc threat, even if it is at EOT seems like mana that could've been spent on an EOT FoF).
Although, you both are making some good arguments, I fail to see how Repeal > CoV in the early game, and if you're on the draw (traditional build).
I can definitely see how Repeal >>> CoV if you're playing the artifact build, no question.
Last edited by Vamore; 11-16-2006 at 01:22 PM. Reason: additional content
Early game bounce is bad. You need other means of board control. First turn lacky can be dealt with BEB, and turn 1 vial can be dealt with a needle. Chain of vapour is not very necessary.
The strength of repeal is that it is also good in the late game. Chain of vapour is cheap, but it is as dead as force spike in the mid game. It give the opponents a chance of bouncing your threats(which you cannot counter), such as opidian, shakles, B2B or keg(with counter). turn 1 lackey is certainly very annoying, but 5(or more if you really hate gobbos) BEB is better answer than Chain of vapour in every way.
I've been playing the traditional build (based on the D4D top 8 build) with some tweaks of my own, and my understanding on the deck is that your opponents will have bunch of lands that they will not need after you survive first 10 turns (and you reach 6 or more land). The chain is essentially dead on that kind of situation (even more than force spike), knowing how this deck relys on permernats for the board control.
repeal is a perfect answer for ether vial as well. I personally hate the vial more than lackey when I'm playing this deck. and the situations that you would want the chain more than repeal is limited. Unless you're facing turn 1 lackey, repeal is almost always better choice. As I said before, this deck hates card disadvantage, no matter how you look at it.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Against Vial, the standard hand without Moxen Repeal is even stronger as you can bounce it early eot and then counter.
That's absolute no argument against Repeal.
The Lackey thing you are right - without Mox Repeal comes too late.
But I think it's acceptable to take this problem.
How does CoV work on this?
I think following:
Goblin: 1st Turn Land, Lackey (assumption you don't have the force)
You: Land, go
Goblin: Land, Attack
You: CoV the Lackey
Goblin: Replay Lackey
At that point, I don't see what's the advantage of CoV.
Your giving Mana and a card for buying time you cant effectivly use as you must let the Lackey resolve a second time...
Btw the Goblin-MU preboard does not look that good.
They are able to beat you even without that first turn Lackey.
In any other situation, Repeal is 100% better than CoV.
As a new food for thought:
What do you guys think about Spell Snare and Annul as a 2-of in the MB or 3-4 in the SB?
Doks
This is assuming Game 1, so no sideboard cards (BEB) discussion yet.
I guess we have to iron out our fundamental differences in bounce necessity. For me, I'm focusing on bounce to help me out in the very early stages of the game (turn 1 specifically, maybe turn 2), which will solidify our mid-late game control. You're focusing on the effectiveness of mid-late game bounce, without regard to the ultra-crucial early game. I mean, we already have plenty of mid-late game answers w/ plenty of instant draw spells to find them. What we don't have is enough early game answers to resolved threats.
My stance is, if your opponent is in a position where he's resolving mid-late game threats, forcing you to bounce them, then you are not in control of the game, your opponent is. If you are in such a position, you have to ask yourself how you got there. The only thing proceeding the mid-late game stage is the early game stage. Also, mid-late game, getting a CoV bounced back to your permanents would suck, but what are they going to be casting mid-late game, that would require you to bounce it, that you couldn't just counter it/Keg it/Shackle it/Quicksand it/etc.
Which brings me back to my point. We should be focusing on early game bounce, so that the mid-late game doesn't slip out of your control. And if we are to focus on the early game, we should tune our deck so that regardless of who's on the play/draw, MUC will prevail/recover from your opponent's resolved 1st turn lethal threat.
Bounce, to me, is necessary maindeck because you will not always have a FoW in your early game hand, and Force Spike (assuming traditional build) is hit or miss.
@ Doks -
I'd play with Disrupt maindeck before considering Annul or Spell Snare, but that's just me.
Last edited by Vamore; 11-16-2006 at 03:17 PM. Reason: response to post
Where did I talk about SB?
I just said that our pre-board game is not very good.
Well, Repeal is even that early bounce.
Against Threshold, a 2nd/3rd turn untreshed bounced werebear is not late, right?
Against Gobbo, as I posted, CoV is not better than Repeal against a Lackey when they are on the play.
Then:
One can't bounce Piledriver.
Guess no one would like to return Matrone.
Ringleader the same.
SGC too.
Shackles then becomes useless when you play CoV; whereas it is one of your strongest cards against Goblins.
What definition do you have about control?
I don't think that it is defined by countering every single spell the opponent plays.
I really do understand what you mean - but I don't think that CoV does this job better.
It is just comfortable not to have that late-game Vial/Needle countered as you can wait, repeal and then blow it up with Keg than wasting a counter on it.
In this way, Repeal more or less helps you to establish control.
It's awesome to have more options combined with cantripping.
Disrupt is not that good in Legacy as it does not what other 1CC/free counters like Daze and Force Spike do:
Counter a first turn Vial/Lackey/Mongoose.
But I see Annul a very interesting Choice.
Spell Snare may be good in the SB.
Wish you a good night, here in Germany its time to sleep ;)
Doks
Just to straight things out, let me post how I look things in MUC. It looks like we have fundimental difference in how MUC should work.
In my opinion, this is how a game works for MUC(assuming traditional build). Any disageement is welcome.
1. Early stage: This is before you establish 2 island. on the draw, this is where you lose the game to first turn threat. On maindeck, force spike and force of will is your strongest card of this phase. The cards that can ruin you on this stage are goblin lackey, ether vial, sinkhole(assuming you're on draw), hymn and others. 1 on 1, or 2 on 1 exchange is required for the threats.
2. Early-midgame: Now you start to use your 2cc counters. trading 1 on 1 and absorb some damage from their attacker is what happens here. This stage ends when they are out of gas and cards in there hand is low. You want at least 4 land by the end of this stage.
3. Midgame: This starts with your establishment of board control. Shakles or keg with approperate number will do the job. Then you play FoF/Ophidain to gain card advantage and charge up. Your Mana leak/Force spike gets worse from this stage. Sometimes you do not see the board control and forced to play the early morphling. Against fish or thresh, early morphling is quite good once you get it active. You shold have 6-8 land by this stage.
4. Mid-lategame: If you're playing against goblins, only thing you're afraid of in this stage is ringleader or seige-gang. Against thresh or fish, forbid is your best friend(I play a single copy). This ends if you get ophidian active or play morpling.
5. Lategame: Against aggro, If you're here, the chances are you win the game. Against aggro-control, you prorobably win the game. against control, do you have your B2B or morphling out?
In my opinion, maintaining control is keeping the threats that you cannot deal with out of the board and get my own threats on the board. This does not mean that you have to counter every single spell. Ol' superman is so good that he can win over the large army as long as you're not getting overruned by it.
Well, This is how I see the game. I'm pretty tired right now, so there might be some mistakes. You're welcome to point out the errors that might be there.
About some dispute:
Spell snare - I don't like the card. It sounds good, but force spike or disrupt will do a better job in most cases. Anull is very intersting indeed, but not a maindeck material, I think.
Rune snag vs Mana leak - Mana leak is better on early/mid stage, which is MUC's biggest weakness. Rune snag is better once you reached midgame, but sometimes the difference between 2 and 3 decides whether you have midgame or not. Rune snag also takes away sideboard flexiblity, since you always want to play 4.
Forbid - Maindecking a single copy is quite nice. Any opinion?
Maindeck bounce - First, I was wondering what do you take out for the maindeck bounce. I just don't seem to find the spot.As doks pointed out, earlygame bounce is not always the best solution, since you'll have to get rid of the threat sooner or later. The problem about the chain of vapor is that it is too conditional on the most occation. Sometimes you want midgame bounce, and chain just sucks at that. Card disadvantage is something to think about as well.
Ophidian - If you don't like him, what do you run instead?
Last edited by C.P.; 11-17-2006 at 03:16 PM. Reason: additional content
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Ophidian is a big part of the traditional build.
In the "modern" version I play Repeal/TfK in those slots.
To make room for the rest a lowered the Manacount to 22-24 what is enough with all that draw since you reach 3 Mana for the Thirst which usually shows up with the 4th Manasource.
Good description, but there I see the problem that when you strengthen the early game you weaken the late game (Snag vs. Leak e.g.).1. Early stage: This is before you establish 2 island. on the draw, this is where you lose the game to first turn threat. On maindeck, force spike and force of will is your strongest card of this phase. The cards that can ruin you on this stage are goblin lackey, ether vial, sinkhole(assuming you're on draw), hymn and others. 1 on 1, or 2 on 1 exchange is required for the threats.
2. Early-midgame: Now you start to use your 2cc counters. trading 1 on 1 and absorb some damage from their attacker is what happens here. This stage ends when they are out of gas and cards in there hand is low. You want at least 4 land by the end of this stage.
I mean, for sure i'ts fatal to be hit by those turn1 bombs but many you can handle in the next few turns (Mongoose -> Keg, Vial -> Repeal).
On the other hand, them having their 4-of bomb like Lackey is the same chance as you to have the FoW.
to be continued, must go now...
//EDIT: Here comes the rest:
I really see the problem, but being weak in the first few turns is a typical illness of blue =/
To improve that problem effective we needed to splash a color - what makes us losing Wastelandimmunity and B2B.
Otherwise, we need to find an answer in blue.
Even Force Spike is worthless when we are on the draw and opponent drops Lackey.
The only solution that is weaker on the draw with bombs like lackey, but is a viable solution to others like Vial/Needle/Werebear, is Repeal.
Doks
Last edited by Doks; 11-17-2006 at 09:24 AM.
What about running a few merchant scrolls in the deck? If you are low on counter magic you can fix that up in a pinch with that card. Or if you need a snap to deal with a pesky creature or something that they just layed down and you missed. I know the build doesn't run either of those...but it could work.
Granted, merchant scroll isn't instant speed. Meh
@ Doks - Well, The early game is important since there are chances that you won't get to lategame if you screw it up. leak is not impressive in the lategame, and that is why my 4th mana leak is forbid. Forbid solves any problem with dead cards and sometims turns into a hard lock in control matchup with ophi. In my opinion, you have to concentrate on surviving early game in current meta.
@mikekelly - You said it, it is a socery. This deck wants to avoid socery speed spell as much as possible. And any kind of tutor(including wishboard) is just way too slow to survive the earlygame.
//some more to Doks
Repeal, while it is versatile answer for the threats it does not get rid of the threat, which is a big factor(any bounce had that kind of problem, for that matter). you are required to bounce and counter and that mana/tempo commitment is just huge. Quicksand is pretty viable option for lacky, while I admit losing a land is not vary nice. Repeal, while it is an amazing card, It is as weak as force spike when you're on draw.
Last edited by C.P.; 11-17-2006 at 10:46 AM.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Well, the Scroll has a nice function, but, as you said, it's a sorcery...
The "bounce and counter" is a very commom strategy for MUC.
I mean, you play tons of countermagic, why not use it for that?
But sometimes you can handle the replayed thing with Shackles/Keg which is even a often used way.
Doks
I feel we're really getting somewhere with this discussion. Good work guys.
@Doks-
The sideboard thing was directed at C.P., sorry if I didn't make that clear. C.P. mentioned dealing with resolved threats with Needle and BEB (both SB cards).
@C.P.-
I totally agree about BEB/Hydroblast and Needle to deal with retarded on-the-play Goblin opening hands, but for now anyway, I think we should deal with the optimal Game 1 maindeck.
Re: Ophidian-
For me, it's definitely a love/hate relationship. Phid has sooo many drawbacks in today's environment (especially against the tier 1 decks MUC needs to beat), it really makes you question the 4 precious slots he takes up. But the potential positives are sometimes too great to ignore. For me, he's out, and more early game answers (bounce) is in. Although, I always "feel" weird about not playing with him. I guess it might be because he's been apart of MUC since he was printed.
Re: Splashing a color for early game recovery-
The whole point of playing MUC is the untouchable manabase it gives you, plus the ability to run B2B, knowing that a resolved B2B will give the vast majority of your opponents nightmares. However, splashing Red for Fire/Ice and/or Pyroclasm would definitely help out out early game cause. Heck, Fire/Ice and Pyroclasm would be useful virtually any point during the game. I see no drawback in splashing Red, only positives. You could run 4x Volcanic Island, and 2x Blood Moon instead of 2x Back to Basics. Although not quite as strong, Blood Moon would still get the job done in most cases, with minimal drawback for you (Volcanic Island mana vs. Mountain mana).
Re: Answer in Blue for early game recovery-
I think MUC is at a point where this is as good as it gets until something new is printed. If there was a better blue card for early game recovery, it would have been found by now.
@Valmore
I aggree with you on splash. This deck is mono blue for a reason. It should never be splashing other colours.
About the ophidian, you should not forget the fact that it is a permernant. MUC differs from the landstill because it relies on permenats for getting board control, and that is one of the reason that landstill is (apparently)dead. Replacing him with a bounce spell might look good on paper, but I never liked it after I did some testing. Ophidian is also good at handling solidarity and some other random control oriented decks(e.g. Deadguy or 3CC). Maindeck bounce is also dead against combo, which is more serious threat than ever.
I agree with you on early game recovery. Unless some new recruit comes along, I think we've got everything that we could possibly use. I still like the idea of suprise engineered explosive as 3rd keg.
As for the maindeck, If we tweak the deck in a way that we can deal with gobbo's godhand without FOW, the deck will lose it's versatility because it would have too much permernant control. One of the reasons that I love the deck is that I has decent chance against everyting(except solidarity).
@Doks
While I do admit that bounce + counter had been blue's primary solution against resolved threat, it is not very effective for 2 reason.
1. It is slow. you need to play two spells a turn(at least for the threats like lackey or vial on turn 1), and that would probably mean you have more than 2 island. Or if it is not the case, then you're spending 2 turns on a threat. Either way, it is not the best thing to do in earlygame.
2. It is card disadvantage. it is essentially 2 for 1. Well, unless you use repeal. Bounce also had additional problem of being useless against things like mother of runes or a certain 2 mana goblin(It tends to be lethal if left unblocked).
@ to all
While I admit that maindeck tweaks should be considered, I think sideboard matters more, especially because of solidarity. Solidarity is one of the reason that MUC cannot be tier 1 in legacy. Once we solve that problem, I think MUc's got a future. Personally I find gobbos and thresh not that hard to beat, it is at least 50/50 for both matchups.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Look at my list back a couple pages. If you're so worried about a Lackey or other deadly first turn plays, Daze and FoW already cover 8 answers. Psychic Purge covers Lackey... 12. Repeal can bounce it if you play first, so I'd say that's about 12 to 16 possibilities. Or you can even run Stifle, which can hose Lackeys ability for a turn giving you a chance to Repeal it, also being a pretty versatile card.
Right - and that's the reason why I use Repeal ;)
And why is bouncing + countering too slow?
You bounce that Vial for example eot, untap and keep that CC2-Counter to handle the bounced threat later.
Even if they are on the play, what do they want to do? - They generally replay the threat, you counter, they have 1-2 Mana open.
If it comes bad, they have the next 1CC threat, for example 2nd Lackey/Vial.
Otherwise, a lone Piledriver is not very dangerous, so just untap and keep stopping the next threats.
Doks
When you're on draw, bounce + counter is not very impressive. Can you bounce turn 1 lackey and counter, when you're on draw? Bunce + counter was traditionally used as countermeasure for things that does not run around early game or can be allowed to stay around longer than a turn(e.g. survival). For things that cannot be allowed to stay in play more than a turn(e.g. lackey), bounce + counter is not very effective(read: not fast enough).
@iOWN - Psychic purge is just bad. It is too narrow, and mostly useless unless you're playing gobbos.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
It is good against Pikula (hits Confidant and makes them lose five off of Hymn or Verdict), against Goblins, can come of use against various other Aggros (it kills plenty of stuff, like Grim Lavamancer, unthreshed Werebear, etc.) and can just blow 1 to the head when completely useless. Besides, that's what the sideboard is for. If it has no use against whatever you play, then it makes sideboarding a bit easier for yourself.
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