I've grinded out games vs a friend who picked it up some months back, and began to pick up on the patterns of why this isn't a great matchup. He's agreed and I don't think he's lost a tournament match to DnT so far.Originally Posted by Adan
Aluren:
Has plenty of basics +DRS, so it's harder to manascrew them
Is majority creature, so while Thalia doesn't do nothing, she's less effective than average
Has Decays for early Vials/Equipment
Plays value roadblocks like Baleful Strix and Leovold
Grinds well while threatening to draw into infinite combo at the same time
There's no way that's a great matchup. It's not unwinnable, sometimes you'll just get a Jitte on a Crusader, but it's not the type of deck you ever hope to see. Almost every opening 7 with their deck is going to have 2 cards that fit the description 'Strong vs DnT'.
I don't disagree that is may or may not be a bad matchup but if we're honest, Aluren is a weaker shardless BUG deck with a combo finish. So if you think all these cards are so dangerous or such an issue, do you identify shardless as a bad matchup? I see it as 50/50 so if we factor in the combo I wouldn't say Aluren is crushingly better against us. But to be fair I've only faced the deck two to three times. I won all 3 but that's a small sample size.
@nihilis
I think I'll probably play it safe and run a Banisher Priest over it for the GP.
Regarding Aluren:
I generically view most creature-based combo decks (Elves, Aluren, Food Chain) as bad matchups. While we tend to have game against the fair portion, a resolved combo card (Natural Order, Food Chain, Aluren) probably means we lose on the spot.
I agree with this sentiment; I actually feel like Aluren is a pretty poor MU.
I think I'm going to end up on something like this:
Lands
10 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
1 Banisher Priest
2 Mirran Crusader
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extractions
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of War and Peace
This is about what I'm looking at. Obviously, there is a ton of room for debate on some of the numbers and choices, and I might even change my mind tonight.
Things I'm considering:
Banisher Priest vs Mangara (speed vs flexibility in a GP field)
4th Mom vs Sanctum Prelate 2 or Serra Avenger 2
One gravehate card vs Containment Priest 2
Seems solid, Medea. Are you going back up to 3 Karakas for RB Reanimator? Also, curious about the reason for running more Crusaders than Avengers? I think you were on 1 and 2 before.
EDIT: Whoops you mentioned maybe switching out mom for something else. Curious what led you to go up to 4 to begin with though. I thought you'd been on 3 in recent weeks?
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
@kerbydsl
I did go up to three Karakas specifically because of RB Reanimator. I like playing two better, but I have to respect the recent popularity of that deck and the hype surrounding Sneak and Show.
I sort of have this feeling that BUG decks will perform well. Leovold has been seeing more and more play, so that cause me to flip flop the numbers on Crusader/Avenger.
I was on 3 Moms. I still sort of want to be on three Moms. Conversations with friends have left me on the fence on this issue.
With BUG decks, and specifically Aluren, what's the best way to fight them? Leovold makes all removal and our mana denial feel bad (hello, Council's Judgment!), and I don't know the best way to respond to the Aluren combo. Most of the Recruiter-less builds are running 2 Parasitic Strix and 3-4 Cavern Harpy, which makes removing what used to be the sole copies of each less reliable.
If I understand correctly, they still can't combo through an Ethersworn Canonist, right? So Canonist + Mom aught to be good.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I'm at:
-1 Mother of Runes
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Serra Avenger
+1 Palace Jailer
-1 Sword of War and Peace
-2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Faerie Macabre
I don't think I want to go below 2 Avengers, esp since I don't know what leaving one accomplishes. Like the flying and the insulation to -1/1 effects. Wish I could fit one more Recruiter. Palace Jailer has me uneasy but my gut says to give it a go.
Surgical vs Faerie is my current head scratcher. Both have their obvious ups and down. Hate trying to hedge on those kinds of numbers... lol
That's correct, they can't combo out because Harpy is not an artifact.
The only version I've played against was the white Recruiter version and I had tried Canonist as well as Revoker naming Harpy, but they also run 3-4 Abrupt Decay and discard (the BUG version seems to favor Ponder instead of discard).
Well Mom is a 3 or 4 of for a reason...I've found that Canonist or Revoker + Mom shuts the game out short of something like a TOxic Deluge
@Nihils
I'm playing Surgical. I fought over the decision all week. Ultimately, I decided that if they have the T1 with Chancellor, they can have it. I want a sideboard card that is generically strong, and Surgical is that. I think there aren't a ton of situations where I'm really going to want to tutor for the gravehate (I've probably already locked it up if I'm at turn three safely). There are the fringe scenarios where Faerie is better (e.g. Faithless ->discard two fatties -> exhume), and I accept that.
The last few slots of the main are difficult. It really doesn't matter that much, but it sure feels like it does.
I have also been fighting over the choice. I agree that Surgical's strength is that it is generically strong, i.e. can be boarded in more matchups. Where else do you see yourself boarding it in? Lands? Miracles? When they miracle trigger the second terminus, extract the first from the grave - deny the draw, counter the spell. Or just STP.
Not that I have a lot of extra cards to board out against miracles. Here's my tentative plan:
-1 Jitte, -2 swords to plowshares (fewer or none if they are Lossett Legends? Maybe also keep 3 in against turbo mentor versions?), -1 (of 1) Serra Avenger, -2 or 3 Mother of Runes? Can't cut a land when you're bringing in gideon, cata, and you can't really mull in the matchup.
+ 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +2 Cataclysm, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Surgical Extraction
Ok, I just had a crazy thought, so can I confirm that Council's Judgment in the maindeck Banisher/Jailer/Mangara slot is sub-optimal? There are more and more Leovolds and TNNs running around. Mangara largely overlaps the target selection in a repeatable, uncounterable, and tutorable fashion, but at the cost of a turn. Judgment would be a compromise between the flexibility of Mangara and the quick(ish) effect of the Journey to Nowhere creatures. If you agree it's not the right call now, how skewed would a meta have to get to make maindeck Judgment viable?
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Wouldn't that make Faerie the better card then?
This is literally my list right now except I play 1 more avenger, no banisher priest, and sideboard swap the SoWaP for a 2nd prelate. Otherwise exactly the same
Same but if we take make the MU a lock with freeroll includes in our deck I would definitely work towards trying to make Lands into a free win.
Who knows at the GP level, but at the local level players are already adapting to Prelate. It doesn't hurt to be one step ahead of their Crop Rotation for Barbarian nonsense.
It seems like there's an obvious solution here - 1 Surgical, 1 Faerie. Having >0 Macabres is useful as they're a great Recruiter target, but Surgical is a generally stronger card.
If I was playing Louisville this weekend, I'd run this:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
26 CREATURES
1 Palace Jailer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
Good luck to anyone who is playing!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote