Thank you for the welcome! Already love the format haha, absolutely wonderful. Never considered taking out Chancellor. Is the deck less resilient vs blue decks after you cut them?Originally Posted by KnightJay96
Firstly, congratulations on getting involved in the best format in magic!
The version with SSG always had Unmasks in it, and never ran collective's other than in the sideboard. I've personally tried the SSG version of the deck. I am not a huge fan of it particularly because that version runs a 1 of mountain that is an absolutely abysmal card when you've got the turn 1 in hand but can't do it because of the mountain.
I believe the consensus here is always run Unmask. It's like our force of will.
My current list for reference: https://deckstats.net/deck-12019928-...61f77f232.html
I need collective brutalities in my meta because of the increase of DRS. I believe DNSolver runs straight 4 Thoughtseize. I'm not running chancellor now because the fact its a terrible creature to reanimate.
I haven't tried out Phyrexian Obliterator yet against Delver, I hope its good. DNSolver, thoughts on it?
Chancellor is definately not a card I would consider cutting.
It makes
- Faithless Looting a better card
- some really busted turns
- not a bad creature to reanimate
This strength of this deck lies in its fast combo potential on turn 1, and the chance of this happening increases strongly with four Chancellor mainboard, especially against Blue/Delver decks.
That's hardly close to true on either statement:Firstly, congratulations on getting involved in the best format in magic!
The version with SSG always had Unmasks in it, and never ran collective's other than in the sideboard. I've personally tried the SSG version of the deck. I am not a huge fan of it particularly because that version runs a 1 of mountain that is an absolutely abysmal card when you've got the turn 1 in hand but can't do it because of the mountain.
I believe the consensus here is always run Unmask. It's like our force of will.
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21612&iddeck=165929
Http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21649&iddeck=166262
Side board plan impacts this decision heavily too (
Blood Moon and Sneak Attack as examples)
This is also pretty false. I see this claim often, but a big fatty with evasion and a taxing effect that dodges karakas is not terrible, in fact in many (most) cases it's better than phyrexian obliterator - since the majority of legacy decks are tapping out turns 1-3, reanimated Chancellor of the Annex taxing that isn't terrible. Sure it's not Griselbrand but nearly all creatures pale in comparison to him.
Also, phyrexian obliterator is still a 2 card combo that's reliant on dark ritual. Thinking otherwise makes him at best a turn 3 play, and that's with lotus petal. As long as swords to plowshares and dismember remain highly played as removal spells of choice, he's a terrible option.
Agree, I don't see how Chancellor is a bad creature to reanimateIt's GG for most decks.
I have the feeling that with the growing interest of many players for the deck (good thing), most just read the 2 last pages of the topic and so completely discard the first pages (bad thing) which incidentally means they haven't read the "primer" at all (veeeeery bad considering a lot of questions players are asking have already been answered).
"list with SSG do not run Collective Brutality" >> http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279101&f=LE
Chancellors are actually pretty fine creatures to reanimate. Admitedly Grisel or Sire T1 otp are just the way to go first. But if there are no other options available, they are perfectly fine and can even be your #1 out vs other combo decks for instance.
So yeah, it is awesome that new players are interested in the deck. It truly is. But just, please, read the primer.
Seems like now might be a good time for someone with experience playing different versions of the deck to chime in on the strengths and weaknesses of various builds for different metas - Chancellor vs Chancellor-less, Monkey vs. Monkey-less, Unmask vs. Collective Brutality, etc
Which decks do you think those are? Getting a T1 Chancellor on the board, even with a reveal, gives your opponent 4-5 turns to deal with it, or just play right past it. I had an opponent on Storm combo off and just pay the tax on every spell and kill me, because he had 5 turns to craft a hand capable of doing so, and all I could do was attack and cross my fingers.Agree, I don't see how Chancellor is a bad creature to reanimate
It's not a bad creature, but between Tidespout and Griselbrand and even Iona/Elesh Norn it's the one I'm most disappointed to bring back.
Errr what?
"T1 Chancellor", "opponent got 5 turns to craft a hand" "all I could do was attack"... I might not be a genius in Math but this certainly does not add up.
Ideally you Reanimate Gbags, then Chancellor if you have no other opportunities. IF Chancellor was your only opportunity for something to reanimate, you may want to weigh that loss against the times that it helped you get past a FoW for a T1 win. Variance is still in play.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-Reanimator
The primer does a pretty good job of this, so do the last 8+ pages.
That's why the deck also runs discard effects. In 5 turns you should be able to shed his hand or reanimate a second time. If not, that's just extreme variance.
Also, I'd typically be happy with her against the most played creature in the format deathrite shaman. As turn 1 anything makes that match much easier. Shardless bug is much sadness when everything costs 3+ instead of 2+, and stealing any of their creatures isn't bad either.
End of the day, you don't like it then don't run it, feel free to innovate. firestorm is certainly interesting if you don't care about permission decks.
I'm going from memory, but it was an opening hand something like this:
Land
Chancellor
Ritual
Thoughtseize
Animate Dead
2 irrelevant cards
"Great!", you say, "I can Ritual, discard my Chancellor, then Animate Dead it. Deck is working as intended!" Except now you have a 4/6 who has to attack 5 times to kill your opponent if you can't get a second threat. I drew nothing useful for 4 turns; no fatties, no discard, just mana sources and spells without targets. All my opponent had to do was burn the T0 Chancellor trigger on a spell he didn't care about, pay 2 mana for all of his Brainstorms and Ponders, and then combo off anyways. If I'd Exhume'd it, he'd have had to combo one turn earlier, but if I'd Reanimated it, he'd only have to storm up to 7, not 9-10, so that's not necessarily better.
To date, the games where Chancellor held off a T1 counter weren't won because of that; they were won because I had enough redundancy in my hand/deck that I could've played through it anyways. It feels strongest against good matchups, and weakest against bad ones.
What were the two irrelevant cards? I'm not sure you took the correct line there.
DNSolver has been playing a no-Chancellor, no-Monkey, Unmask version with green splash lately on Erin Campbell's stream. Seems pretty good...
Ugh I wish I could remember, probably a land and maybe a second re-animation spell?
It's easy to say in retrospect that I should've Thoughtseize'd my opponent, but something I've noticed is that I almost always want to find out what my opponent is on in Game 1 before I start discarding anything. I feel like even running Gitaxian Probe would help immensely, and would also open the door to running Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize. Depending on the fatties you run (Grave Titan, Hornet Queen), you might even be able to flash it back.
I’m having a bit of trouble with my sideboarding and I’d like to get some advice. Specifically, I’m having trouble deciding on the optimal discard suite to have post-board against several match-ups. I posted my list a few pages back, but for quick reference, my discard package is:
Main deck:
4 Unmask
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality (was 1 on the list I posted, I cut the Blazing Archon for the second copy)
A large part of the reason I went for this split is that I wanted to have access to maximum CB post-board vs Grixis Delver, but also wanted to be able to side CB out completely in match-ups where it’s terrible (i.e. Eldrazi, where I’m swapping them for TS, my plan being castable fatties + discard/reanimate their creatures)
I don’t know if this is correct, but given all the ways Grixis Delver can punish going all-in with Unmask, I’m looking to side out all 4 in favor of the discard spells in my sb.
In other match-ups my plan is not nearly as clear though. For example, against Death and Taxes, I’m struggling to juggle the following facts:
- Collective Brutality’s discard mode has very few relevant targets in their deck, it’s pretty much Swords to Plowshares or bust.
- If I side out all my CB’s and end up having to keep a slow-ish hand (especially on the draw), I only have my 3 Abrupt Decay to deal with their hatebears (especially concerned about Containment Priest, but also Thalia and others depending on context).
So I’m at a loss, what’s the correct package here?
Similarly, against Miracles, my first instinct was – FoW deck, cut the Unmasks, but since I’m not also running into Daze/Spell Pierce like vs Delver, I’m starting to think that sacrificing the speed of Unmask to bring in C-Brutality might be wrong. CB also fails to discard Rest in Peace and Counterbalance, which is pretty relevant.
These are just two examples but there are many other situations where the “best” discard package is not 100% clear to me. Can anyone chime in with their thoughts and experiences?
TL,DR: Which discard spells (Unmask/Thoughtseize/Collective Brutality) would you keep (post-board) against which decks, in what proportion, and why?
EDIT: One other question I've been pondering: If you're on the play in game 3, do you put some/most of your anti-hate back into your board (other than vs Leyline) and try to mull aggressively to a turn-1 hand with the deck as undiluted as possible, or is this just begging to get punished?
I'm going to lean on DNS and expand on some very good points in the primer:
This deck benefits from running 3/4 of your SB cards so you can find them for when you need them.
There's a very large and diverse amount of hate to potentially play through. Swapping discard for discard is probably ly not your best use of SB space. At that point you're spending precious slots to try and eek out incremental return on variance in obscure situations rather than being focused/worried about what beats you and what makes you win.
Your approach is a valid concern for decks that play attrition like shardless, eldrazi, grixis, miracles, etc. Reanimator is not in that group.
Old but relevant homework:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f..._Beatdown.html
I see your point, and it may be true that constructing my SB in that way is not ideal, although you'll find that several people are running at least 1 or 2 Collective Brutality in their board (DNSolver himself had the card pegged as one of the possible solutions to the Grixis Delver match-up a few pages back) because it helps a ton in grindy match-ups without diluting plan A.
However, the question still applies even if none of those cards were in my SB and I'm simply deciding on the best configuration to run in the main deck. I provided detailed examples of reasons why I find the decision on some discard spells in certain match-ups to be difficult to make, and your response doesn't help to answer any of those questions. Also, while I may be new to the deck, that doesn't mean I was born yesterday, and perhaps that isn't your intention, but referring me to one of the oldest/most well known pieces of Magic theory on the internet comes off as a bit condescending.
Hello everyone!
Recently played League 5-0 in MO.
Played this list:
1 Kozilek, Great Distortion
3 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Sire of Insanity
4 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
Sideboard (15):
3 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sneak Attack
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
Unmask - best against blue permission decks (fow, daze, flusterstorm, etc.)
Thoughtseize - best against permanent hate (chalice, thorn, counterbalance, etc.)
Collective Brutality - slowest of the 3 but necessary against deathrite shaman decks (especially if they also run blue permission, such as delver)
That's a quick & dirty of the three. Personally, I play 4 Unmask 4 Thoughtseize main for maximum speed with 3 brutality in the side.
I keep in all my unmasks vs. grixis delver and have had pretty good success. I also bring in all my brutalities against D&T. If you try to rip something from their hand and they don't have anything worthwhile, who cares? You're probably still going to win. Similar to naming Force on the blind while playing storm and casting cabal therapy.
Maybe I've just been unlucky, or maybe I'm not taking the right lines, but for me Unmask vs Delver has been a beating. I guess I'll just have to test some more! My feeling was the same on CB vs Death and Taxes, but I had a DnT player tell me differently and it made me question my decision. When you bring in your 3 CB, what do you take out? I'm assuming you're not going to 11 discard spells vs Delver, although that might not actually be as crazy as it sounds come to think of it haha.
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