Because a change in the deck makes sense only if it helps against the problematic match ups, so miracles and combo. Against combo a 4 mana sorcery is not the solution.
Against anything else 8rhinos are enough. So this is why miracles came up.
In my first post I said "in this meta", and this meta is full of counters. Lots of delvers, even show and derp decks and, surprise surprise, miracles.
NO may be good vs eldrazi and maybe (but I don't know) Shardless, I give you that.
Now, what about miracles? NO is the worst card ever in the match up. That's no secret to the entire Source. Everybody tried to explain this to you in the other thread, if I'm not mistaken.
On top of that you said that you don't mind sacrificing VE, so I assume that's what you want to do. Otherwise are you really sacrificing a rhino or atraxa (singletons on top of that) against a miracle player?? And if you don't play NO vs miracles (which is what you are supposed to do, so NOT playing NO) why are you even playing NO instead of 8rhinos or sneak fit? What are you actually improving in doing so?
Echelon mode: OFF
If SR was enough against everything else, then why does Nic Fit not have a huge advantage over the rest of the field?
Tell me how this build is not better than standard Nic Fit preboard against Miracles and Combo and most of the rest of the field as well?
We have already established that preboard, NO is a great answer to Terminus because you don't need to play any other threats and can just wait for them to either lose in 1- 2 turns or use up their Terminus now while allowing you to retain all your remaining threats in your hand. It forces your opponents to use Terminus asap rather wait and hit multiple threats to blow you out of the game. If you already have board advantage, you should hold the NO and cast it after they blow up the board (all you need is a fetch land and 4 mana). NO allows for a quick recovery post Terminus giving the deck a fighting chance in situations where you otherwise would have gotten blown out.Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Post board vs Miracles this deck looks very similar to the very best NO decks post board. How is that an argument against playing this list? Preboard matches matter too and that's where it outperforms others against Miracles. And it outperforms traditional lists both pre and postboard against most everything else.
A 4 mana sorcery by itself is not a solution to combo. But a 4 mana sorcery that speeds up your clock by a full two turns both pre and postboard and is only taking slots that used to belong to significantly slower threats absolutely assists the various anticombo cards in the deck both pre and post board.
You are not going to have a "huge advantage vs the field" unless you play the only tier 0 deck in the format.
I don't think anyone here has problems in beating non combo non miracles decks, beside lands.
Early NO into Ruric Thar is a very tempting idea to combat storm. Eldescale Wurm laughs at a few decks as well, that happen to be problematic. I've always wondered why NO hasn't been explored much. It gets around the ramp problem in similar way to 4cmc Sneak Attack. Except that sneak can hard-cast all fatties except emrakul.
With 1 mana less you can extract tendrils for the insta concede
Ruric Thar is an awesome idea vs combo. To accommodate it, we may need to reconsider the white splash though and explore splashing red in the slots dedicated to white cards. The white splash is very light and isn't integral to the decks function but what else does red bring to the table to justify making this change. Huntmaster warrants a slot and possibly Chandra, Flamecaller but I'm not sold on punishing fire. 2 card combo for 3 mana for 2 damage recurring each turn seems slow relative to how it weakens the manabase, what matchups does it strengthen, just delver decks or does it help vs Miracles as well?
We've done some testing of Natural Order before. This is what I can remember from the last time it came up.
- Against Storm, Reanimator and other fast combo, we can't really rely on it as a primary gameplan since we often won't live long enough to resolve our 4 mana sorceries. It's a fine secondary plan however, and probably better than slamming Rhinos and hoping we get there fast enough. Against combo decks with counterspells (UB Reanimator, Amalgam Dredge) it's just awful.
- Against Miracles it's nowhere near as good as it looks. We don't often get to a position where we can NO before turn three or four, which means they have time to get some of their defenses online, and if NO gets counterspelled we're in a really bad position. There's a reason Elves often goes for the grinding plan against Miracles rather than NO. In addition we have another problem here, which is that there isn't much in the way of NO targets that pressures them hard enough. None of our options really do much into Terminus (which is still a 2-for-1 since you sacrificed a creature for your fatty) and only Progenitus is good into Swords but he's completely uncastable which is a problem.
- Against D&T, Eldrazi and other denial strategies we have a reasonable amount of trouble resolving a NO (especially now that Warping Wail is around) and we don't have any targets that do what we want really. Progenitus is probably the closest again.
- Against midrange decks it's definitely at its best, since a lot of these don't have answers to a fatty and also don't have a fast enough clock to race. Lilianas from Jund can be a problem, same with Shardless's counterspells.
Basically, comparing to Sneak Attack, you gain:
- Easier secondary combo pieces (need Zenith or any creature, rather than Zenith or Empath or Bellower or Emrakul)
- Better against Revoker and Pithing Needle
- Lock out some decks with Elderscale or Ruric Thar
- Can play nonred if you want (but then you lose to combo decks)
Sneak attack gains:
- Better against sorcery speed removal (Liliana, often Terminus, Deluge)
- Don't get 2-for-1ed by countermagic including Warping Wail
- Faster clock once you've gone off - oneshot potential with Bellower and Emrakul
- Fewer dead cards in deck, since Emrakul + Inferno Titan covers almost all matchups
Do you have a sideboard to recommend for this?
//fixed
2x Slaughter Games
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Pithing Needle
1x Golgari Charm
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Reclamation Sage
//flex
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Blood Moon
1x Extirpate
Chandra > Miracles
BMoon > Lands, Eldrazi
Extirpate > Lands, Br Reanimator
Never change something in the fixed category, depending on the meta we change the flex slots to what is needed most.
I swapped Garruk Relentless in this case since maindeck Nissa is already doing what he did and Chandra has a more impact.
Red offers some additional cards to choose from like: pyroblast/reb, Ruination/From the Ashes, etc.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
On NO... It's a horrible plan. Nic Fit is a far worse NO deck than Elves!. And even w/ Elves!, T2 Ruric Thar is not realistic. So how do you figure it'll work in Nic Fit..? Planning to drop it around T4 isn't going to cut it vs. Storm. On CT vs. Miracles - yeah, Counterbalance isn't a card. On NO solving problems Nic Fit has - no, it doesn't. Progenitus falls to Terminus all the same.
So...have I done a good enough job in impersonating you today? Have I shattered his opinions hard enough?
I also have been thinking about cutting Garruk. He is good but not as good as Nissa. Maybe I'll replace him with prime time, which counts as a threat vs Miracles (2T).
You're not out anything if Pod gets countered, and Stifle is a lot less common. Furthermore, any good Pod list gives multiple bodies/creature so even Stifle doesn't trade for a card. NO on the other hand is very risky.
You invest 2 cards in it up front, and then if they have a way to deal with whatever you tutor up, you're down 3 cards. In a grindy matchup you just wind up hemmoraging value, and cause yourself to lose through card disadvantage. It's not like Progenitus is difficult to deal with. Liliana does it for 3 mana, Edict does it for 2.
@Brael Have you developed a Crop Rotation package that you've found to be of your liking? I recently tried a Crop Rotation package consisting of Crop Rotation x2, Dryad Arbor, Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold, Karakas, Maze of Ith and a Bojuka Bog in the SB.
I've been on the fence with Maze, also have you tried Treetop Village?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/
That's the current list, if you go back a couple pages I listed some SB strategies which include how you shift the land toolbox around for various matchups. To answer your question without clicking the link though I'm currently using
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
As my MB with 2 Crop Rotation. Really, I think I need 1 more land because Maze is more a spell slot than a land slot.
In the SB there's
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Crop Rotation
I've been happy enough with this configuration so far. The Maze feels to me like a necessary evil, I don't particularly like it but when it's good it's great. So basically, the same as you except I don't have room for the Bojuka Bog.
I've tried Treetop Village, it was too slow. I've been finding that Crop Rotation is a high enough risk play that you need a payoff right away which is something most creature lands don't offer.
In game 1's, Crop Rotation into Tower has been my strongest play by far. In SB games, it's been somewhat easy to assemble Marit Lage.
Lost Legacy says nonartifact. You can't get Batterskull with it, unfortunately.
You've made me proud!So...have I done a good enough job in impersonating you today? Have I shattered his opinions hard enough?
I also have been thinking about cutting Garruk. He is good but not as good as Nissa. Maybe I'll replace him with prime time, which counts as a threat vs Miracles (2T).
Edit (a day later): I just saw the Echelon mode: off-bit. You cracked me up!
Missed that. Guess that means I owe a buddy of mine an apology, lol.
Last edited by Echelon; 01-09-2017 at 02:04 AM.
Did anyone go to GP Louisville?
I have a Garruk Relentless in the Sideborad now for Miracles and I have a Nissa in main.So...have I done a good enough job in impersonating you today? Have I shattered his opinions hard enough?
I also have been thinking about cutting Garruk. He is good but not as good as Nissa. Maybe I'll replace him with prime time, which counts as a threat vs Miracles (2T).
Should I add another Nissa in sideborad instead?
What colours are you playing?
In white I'd rather have a sideboard Sorin, LOI or a Kaya. In red I'd go with Chandra, Flamecaller. Blue probably gets Garruk, although you could give Ashiok a shot.
Junk build.
Why do you think Sorin, LOI is better then Garruk Relentless?
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