My LGS hosts 1Ks every 2-3 months. Their Modern & Standard events generally get 80+ players, but unfortunately, the Legacy events get around 40. As a result, the store owner has grown lukewarm on Legacy 1Ks, as it's harder to break even and she feels the time/space would be better used on other formats.
Obviously, all the local Legacy players want them to keep running these events. As such, I wanted to offer to do all the organization for their next 1K to make it that much easier for them. However, I've never organized a tournament. Does anyone here have advice or tips on what I'd need to manage? The logistics I've thought of so far are:
- Time/place
- Prize support
- Marketing
- Finding/paying judge(s)
Any help is appreciated!
Good for you for helping out, but I think there are bigger questions here than the basic logistics of the upcoming tournament. I think that if you aim to boost attendance, you should first determine why there haven't been better numbers for the Legacy 1Ks in your area.
* Would a different day or time be more conducive to the player base?
* Would a different venue/location be more convenient?
* Do you need to grow the scene more before regular 1Ks make sense?
* What is the target for attendance: 60 players?
* What do the attendees like, and what would make the event more attractive for them? (If you don't know off the top of your head, talk to players and find out.)
* Does this store promote its events enough so that everyone who plays Legacy knows that the store is running Legacy 1Ks (and when those events are held)? My personal opinion is that you can never have too much promotion, and most stores do basically zero promotion.
* Does the store live-stream matches or do any other sort of coverage? (This helps with promotion and keeps people who missed a 1K engaged in the scene.)
Cheers, Spirit Guide! I agree that there are some deeper issues at play here, but figured taking the logistical load off the store might make a 1K more likely. Regardless, here are my thoughts on your questions:
- The LGS always does its 1Ks on Sundays, apparently because they want to be able to hold their regular Saturday events uninterrupted. In the past, Legacy gamers from Houston have said they'd make the trip down if the 1Ks were held on a Saturday, so I'm inclined to believe that'd be better.
- Austin has ~6 game stores, and this one is the most popular and central. I think it's the best venue, barring renting somewhere out.
- Austin has a great Legacy scene, as do San Antonio and Houston. I think the issue is that people haven't been motivated to come out.
- The LGS has indicated to me that they want 80 players to give out 1K in prizes, pay for judges, and pay staff. They also said that the next time they do a Legacy event, they'd prefer to market it as a $500 event that will scale given attendance. Apparently, people have been upset when they showed up for a 1K and when there were only 40 players, there wasn't a 1K prize pool.
- Good question! I'll ask around.
- I 100 % agree with you that stores don't market their events enough. When I thought about handling the logistics of a 1K, I thought that marketing would have to be the biggest component.
- They haven't live-streamed any 1Ks before, but when they hosted a pauper event a few months ago they experimented with it. I don't know how they felt about the experience, but I agree with you that it's a good addition if possible.
OK, it's good to consider these things, since every region and player base has different concerns. Sounds like you're on the right track, but you may encounter some challenges.
Scaling events is a big trap, in my experience, unless the minimum-size prize is likely to draw a large crowd already. The reason is that people who have to travel always assume the worst and will be less likely to attend. This is the same concept behind smaller events not firing: People show up to play and there's no tournament. Some of the people who got burned last time don't show up to the next event, and eventually support just dries up.
This is similar to the situation you describe here: "Apparently, people have been upset when they showed up for a 1K and when there were only 40 players, there wasn't a 1K prize pool."
If the store advertised a 1K and then didn't run a 1K, that action burned a lot of players, and I would argue that it's the main reason why the attendance numbers have been lower than desired lately. Any store should want players to come back and should be willing to eat a one-time loss in order to keep players happy. The store needs to find the right level of prize in order to be worth it for everybody. If $500 gets people to come out and the store is comfortable guaranteeing that amount, then that should be a good base. After the store establishes that base and sees reliable turnout, then the store might experiment with bonuses, where a stated prize amount would get increased based on a larger-than-expected turnout. In short, it's always bad to have downgrades to a stated prize purse, but it's always good to have surprise enhancements when turnouts are especially strong.
Prizes ought to be guaranteed, and venues should take a long-term view of things. When players can follow a routine and rely on guarantees, they are more likely to show up regularly. Also, if prizes are awarded in the form of store credit, the money is all going back to the store in the form of increased business. Stores make money buying and selling, so any reasonable store should view an increase in volume as a positive and not be miserly about a tournament prize. Smart stores figure out what the market will bear and then set their rates appropriately.
This is another key piece. Take note of what players tell you when you talk with them. If you can find out what motivates them to come to your event, that's vital. You've already had some feedback from Houston players, who indicated that Saturday would be a better day than Sunday. Depending on how many Houston-area players this event is drawing from, that could be a big factor, or it could be a small factor.Originally Posted by Stuart
I've replied to you in our messages but replying here as well so others can discuss/debate these points
Regarding attracting traveling players:
Timing
Dallas and Austin are both ~3 hours from Austin. The latest most people are going to want to get home on a Sunday before a working Monday is probably between 10p-12a (to get 8 hours of sleep in time to get to work at 8am). That means ending your tournament 7p-10p.
Let's work backwards to see what time we'd need to start the event. Assuming an hour per round and playing out top 8, you're starting times are:
17-32 players: 11a-2p
33-64 players: 10a-1p
65-128 players: 9a-1p
When I was working 8-5, a lot of these mean both waking up early on a weekend /and/ staying up late on a work night all to play Magic.
Playing on Saturday means you can both start later and end later.
Tournament Value
It's been said that eternal tournaments are always negative EV due to the price of cards. That's true but I should be able to at least get positive EV on the tournament. As an example, I considered going to a Vintage tournament a couple of years ago in San Antonio. After doing the math, a friend and I discovered that, sharing a car, the only way to cover the cost of gas and the cost of entry for the two of us would be to come in first and second place and have the tournament's scaling payout would have to be at maximum scale. (And this assumed that the prize cards were worth SCG Near Mint prices) We ultimately decided that, as much as we wanted to go play Vintage, we couldn't justify a 100% guaranteed negative EV weekend. We played our local legacy weekly instead.
I agree with the above that scaling prizes are problematic in this area as well. It's even harder for me to think an event will be +EV when it's possible that the 1K will actually be a 0.3K.
Another problem is how the payout is scales in terms of how the money is spread among top 8. I've been to fairly high-entry tournaments where payout was something like:
1: Power
2: $200 credit
3-4: Entry fee back in credit
5-8: 1/2 Entry fee back in credit
It's even harder to justify traveling when I have to 100% spike the tournament to get anything of value.
What I would like
* Start the tournament around noon on Saturday. That allows me to wake up at a reasonable time and travel. If the tournament goes long, I can spend the night in a hotel or drive home late at night without issues
* Give me something to do after the tournament. People miss out on the opportunity to show off their city. Austin is great and people love to visit it. Arrange a post-tournament bar crawl or something. Most out-of-towners will probably want to do dirty sixth. You could induldge them or you could show them a side of the city they haven't seen. (Personally, I want to find out how much East Side King and beer I can fit inside of my body)
* Give me something to do when I inevitably scrub out. Maybe a bounceback tournament or someone's cube or a good place to grab a snack around the corner.
Regarding scaling:
What would people think if it was something like tournament doubles in prizes at X players but out-of-towners count as 2 players?
I think doing these on a Sunday in general is simply a horrible choice. Hard to swing it when you gotta be back for work the next day. Saturday alone would attract more people I think. That and advertisement. I think that's also a big one that people underestimate. Ours does way better when we advertise it hard at least a month in advance so people can make time in their schedules or take off work if they work Saturday's
I agree about scaling prizes. It seems like the big hurdle is that my LGS is wary of guaranteeing $1K in cash if there's a low turnout. Do you think a good compromize would be guaranteeing $1k worth of cards in prizes? (E.g. an Underground Sea for 1st, a Bayou for 2nd, a Savannah for 3rd & 4th, Plateaus for 5th-8th. Not sure if that's exactly $1K, but you get the drift.) I'd personally pay $25 to play for that type of prize pool, but I'm not sure if most Legacy players also would.
On that note, I'm planning on asking everyone at our weekly on Thursday how they feel about items such as payout, Saturday vs Sunday, etc. Hopefully that provides some good insight.
Cheers Sam. We've had quite the dialogue in our message, but some thoughts for here:
- I think moving these events to Saturday is absolutely the biggest thing my store can do to boost attendance. San Antonio and Houston both have great Legacy scenes from which I'm sure a number of players would like to attend, but making that trip on a Sunday is stupid.
- We basically founded the Lhurgoyfs because we all have a shared interest in/enjoyment of traveling to MtG events and then taking in lots of beer and food beforehand/afterwards. I think you're right that as guys in their 20s and 30s with expendable incomes, many Legacy players are interested in that social component. If we do a 1K here (or in Houston), I like the idea of going out on the town after. (You mentioned Dirty, though I'd personally vote for Rainey Street. Bangers is awesome and I think most Legacy players would enjoy it.)
- I like the idea of side events for people who scrub out. My LGS normally is strictly anti-proxy, but apparently they're OK with proxy Vintage because they don't host sanctioned Vintage. Point being, maybe we could have an all-proxy Vintage scrubout special?
- I think your approach to scaling for out-of-towners makes sense. I'm just not sure how the host would feel about it. My plan is to share this thread with them, so it'll be interesting to see how they react.
Agreed on both points. How have you guys advertised your events? I know I've seen postings on here about your events, but do you also use Facebook, etc? LGSs are notoriously bad at marketing, so if I'm going to try to help them with this event, I want to have specific advice of what they/I can do to get the word out.
From an outsider prespective
This might alienate local people. Gives the impression that the locals are not worth as much as people that have to travel to the event.
Regarding scaling:
What would people think if it was something like tournament doubles in prizes at X players but out-of-towners count as 2 players?
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