[Primer] R/G Lands

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Errant post in this thread. Nice idea, just wrong thread. PLEASE DELETE.

[U_mage]

Last night I thought about some sideboard slots and came across the good old Shard Phoenix.
I think it's fine against D&T. Sure it's slower against Elves or Infect than Kozilek's Return for example, but I think it could be fine against Miracles as well. It can either pressure them alongside Tireless Tracker or take out Mentor!
It's recursive so you can dredge into it without trouble.
I think 1 phoenix next to P-Fire & 1 Vortex/Assault won't hurt.

Iiiiiiiiiinteresting... I'll try this out at my next legacy night

[Chatto]

Just won a small 4-rounder, going 4-0 (or 8-1 in games)

R1 Goblins:
Not much to say; having a big ugly flying monster is just really good. Two quick games.
1-0 (2-0)

R2 UBW homebrew:
Game one was pretty standard ramping lands, into eot Flying Witch. Game two was dragging on, with me comfortable on 39 life. I have a TT chipping away life, but Enigineered Explosives on three wipes the board. We go into turns, and I manage to burn him to death with Barbarian Ring, and P-Fire.
2-0 (4-0)

R3 Elves:
Game one I control the board with P-Fire, and Tabernacle. Turns out, Elves don't fly. Game two he mulls to six or five, but has no T1-play or second mana. I play Wasteland, waste his lone Bayou, and take the game a couple of turns later.
3-0 (6-0)

R4 SnS:
Game one, my hand contains Mox D, CR, TStage, Manabond, a fetch, Loam, and another land. Two turns later we go to game two. Game two we durdle, but in the end he Sneak Attacks Emmy into play (twice). Game three I keep a hand with TT, Loam and Exploration, but not a lot of mana-producing land. He then lands a Blood Moon, to which I respond with CR, getting my lone Forest. Blood Moon turns out to be a Gift of the Gods, turning my non-manaproducing lands into non-basic Mountains. I cast TT, and with the help Exploration, and Loam, I am able to quickly end the game with a 9/8 TT.
4-0 (2-1)

My list was heavily based on the list of Jody, with some minor changes:

Spells (15)
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble

Other Spells (10)
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration

Lands (35)
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Molten Vortex
1 Kozilek's Return
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Sphere of Resistance

[hovercraft]

Is Lands playable without Punishing fire combo? I'm hoping for a Grove reprint before I pick them up but I already have almost everything else (no Tabernacle and need a couple more Maze of Ith).

[Chatto]

Is Lands playable without Punishing fire combo? I'm hoping for a Grove reprint before I pick them up but I already have almost everything else (no Tabernacle and need a couple more Maze of Ith).

Check David Long's list. He plays without P-Fire. He does play Decay and Vortex.

[Benama9]

I've a doubt I'd like to ask here:

In this situation, with 2 punishing fires in the graveyard and one grove and two taigas on the field, what's the best line of play?

A) bring back one punishing fire and use it against the opponent.
B) bring back both punishing fires ( one with the grove, one with a taiga ), and use them in your turn to deal more damage.

I always doubt on which one is the best line of play.

Additionally, when is it better to wasteland in our opponent's upkeep rather than in our main phase? Say the opponent has a both a volc and an underground sea tapped. Is there any reason why I should waste in his upkeep instead of just wasting in my turn?

What would happen if his lands were untapped? Should I wait until his upkeep then? In this situation I could only see doing it to make him waste his mana ( say he has brainstorm ) in his turn, but I'd like to know your experience.

Thanks.

[Claymore]

On the last item, I was watching Reid Duke's youtube series on his True Name BUG and he was always wastelanding his opponent on their upkeep. I'm not sure why either.

[Whitefaces]

I've a doubt I'd like to ask here:

In this situation, with 2 punishing fires in the graveyard and one grove and two taigas on the field, what's the best line of play?

A) bring back one punishing fire and use it against the opponent.
B) bring back both punishing fires ( one with the grove, one with a taiga ), and use them in your turn to deal more damage.

I always doubt on which one is the best line of play.

Additionally, when is it better to wasteland in our opponent's upkeep rather than in our main phase? Say the opponent has a both a volc and an underground sea tapped. Is there any reason why I should waste in his upkeep instead of just wasting in my turn?

What would happen if his lands were untapped? Should I wait until his upkeep then? In this situation I could only see doing it to make him waste his mana ( say he has brainstorm ) in his turn, but I'd like to know your experience.

Thanks.

The punishing fire question will really depend on what the game state is like. If you're playing against a creature deck, then it's worth bringing both back probably as you may need to cast it twice without using the grove to return. After that, it becomes a question of how much mana you have. Using a single grove activation and a Taiga to return a second fire will deal out more damage faster in the long run as they're gaining 1 life for 4 damage, as opposed to 2 damage and 1 life. But if you're constricted on mana then you can return just a single fire to 'flame jab' them and keep other options open.

I can't remember the video of Reid making this play as mentioned above, but if he's letting the lands untap then wasting in upkeep I don't understand that either. If they're tapped out it's better to waste then and there imo, unless someone else can enlighten me? But if they're untapped, then waste in their upkeep as they may really need that land and do a trick like cast a Brainstorm then daze it to save the land. Here you're making them use the mana for the Brainstorm on their turn, which is very relevant.

[Claymore]

I think I've seen it when they're untapped. Happens in this video at about 7:19 https://youtu.be/8NtUmqwJ7CU

It's the Leovold Dark Bant series.

[Whitefaces]

I think I've seen it when they're untapped. Happens in this video at about 7:19 https://youtu.be/8NtUmqwJ7CU

It's the Leovold Dark Bant series.

OK, so in this case it's right to do it in upkeep. If they're tapped out you should mainphase it.

[hovercraft]

Check David Long's list. He plays without P-Fire. He does play Decay and Vortex.

Great thanks! I have Bayous so this kind of list is no problem for me right now.

Why does the deck seem to play a mixed bag of green fetches? Protection against Pithing Needle/Surgical Extraction?

[Chatto]

Great thanks! I have Bayous so this kind of list is no problem for me right now.

Why does the deck seem to play a mixed bag of green fetches? Protection against Pithing Needle/Surgical Extraction?

That's basically it. It probably won't be much of a problem most of the time, but better save than sorry.

[U_mage]

Why does the deck seem to play a mixed bag of green fetches? Protection against Pithing Needle/Surgical Extraction?

There was a photo on reddit of a guy getting t1 probed+needle on misty rainforest while he had only mistys in hand. That's why lol

[rlesko]

Is Lands playable without Punishing fire combo? I'm hoping for a Grove reprint before I pick them up but I already have almost everything else (no Tabernacle and need a couple more Maze of Ith).

So you have a tabernacle or not? Deck is not playable without the tabernacle IMO.

[Whitefaces]

So you have a tabernacle or not? Deck is not playable without the tabernacle IMO.

The deck is considerably worse without it, but it's still 'playable' at a LGS or something.

[rlesko]

The deck is considerably worse without it, but it's still 'playable' at a LGS or something.

I mean, I guess you're right. I thought these forums are primarily about competitive builds though, not budget talk. In that respect, its not competitive, thats why I say "unplayable"

[Whitefaces]

I mean, I guess you're right. I thought these forums are primarily about competitive builds though, not budget talk. In that respect, its not competitive, thats why I say "unplayable"

Yeah, I think we're on the same page.

I'd never advise someone to take the deck without a Tabernacle to a GP, SCG Open, or any bigger tournament. It's absolutely key in a lot of matchups and you'll lose a bunch of games without it in the deck, but I got the vibe that this wasn't for a big tournament, more of a LGS thing (correct me if I'm wrong, then I wouldn't advise playing the deck ) But in the meantime, it's worth playing what you can to get experience with the deck.

[Chatto]

The deck is considerably worse without it, but it's still 'playable' at a LGS or something.

I disagree. You need Tabernacle of you want to play RGCL. It is a keypiece of the puzzle.

EDIT: didn't want to come across as rude, but I just strongly advise to play this deck with Tabernacle, be it on a kitchentable or at a LGS. Without is just not the same.

[Ingo]

I disagree. You need Tabernacle of you want to play RGCL. It is a keypiece of the puzzle.

Tabernacle is like the cherry on the manadenialcake. It's like an ultimate insurance policy along with wastes and quarters, but in the end its usually a combopiece you rotate for as these win you the game.
So if you evaluate Tabernacle in the number of times you tutor for it, I feel like it's a less of a holy grail than most people assume. So you can still have very decent results without it, as long as you're willing to loose some matches where it would have shine'd.

Edit: congrats on you tourney by the way!

[Crimhead]

Tabernacle is like the cherry on the manadenialcake. It's like an ultimate insurance policy along with wastes and quarters, but in the end its usually a combopiece you rotate for as these win you the game.
So if you evaluate Tabernacle in the number of times you tutor for it, I feel like it's a less of a holy grail than most people assume. So you can still have very decent results without it, as long as you're willing to loose some matches where it would have shine'd.

This is sound. More often than not you wont even see Tabernacle. But not having it will cost you matches.

Regarding the budget vs competitive discussion, I see no reason why somebody with budget constrains can't ask about the necessity of certain staples. Case and point, asking if the deck can be played without PF. Turns out a case can be made that it's as good or better (possibly meta dependent). I think its okay to discuss or inquire about any building decisions regardless of the motive.