Maybe Walking Ballista with trinket mage?
Why Walking Ballista in the first place? Pricey to drop, pricey to pump all to just be able to burn an opponent? What matchup would it be useful in? Unless you get a nifty set of cloudposts lined up then drop this card, feels like it would take too much time to setup.Originally Posted by MechTactical
Maybe Walking Ballista with trinket mage?
BUG usually has a hard time with reanimator and blood moon decks. 12-post handles them fine if they are a control build but shardless bug is trickier for the fact of their super efficient toolbox midrange capabilities.
I feel 4c delver will go back to just BUG since they won't need Lightning Bolt anymore with this in that slot. Still your typical match up against those builds, I don't think it's going to cause in influx of players other than ones just wanting to test it out. It's a great addition to the Legacy card pool but I don't think its that game breaking as the cards they have graciously been giving to Death and Taxes lately.
Maybe Walking Ballista with trinket mage?It pings creatures or players. So it can be "(4): Destroy target Insectile Aberration", "(2): Destroy target Pyromancer", etc. It's a purely colorless answer to Magus of the Moon that, yes, can be found by Trinket Mage, and makes some use of the copious mana we can generate. So I could see it in a U/G build but it seems inferior to plain old Swords in decks with easy access to white.
On an unrelated note, new Emrakul continues to impress. With its cost reduction I got to cast it through double Blood Moon out of Painter today and Mindslaver him into paying his whole life total to Spellskite (spin top, redirect x 9).
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
@Skirger "classic" UG simply doesn't have good spot removal (dismember, but i don't like it all that much). Ballista adds a nifty ability to trinket mage builds. I would like to add to k_omegas reasoning that Ballista is a creature (fetch-able with trinket and eye of ugin!), which can be crucial in some MU. It is expensive, but i often miss not having a meaningful colorless mana-sink available to me. I could even see him as an alternative win-con. With candelabra we can generate absurd mana or against an oponent that paid too much life during the first few turns...
Yesterday i did some online testing. i'm not super impressed (would be nice if ballista had a single X), but ballista did enough work to merit further testing. I dropped him for 2 against liliana when SnTing titan. In another match i pinged 2 dark confidants and had a 1-1 ping creature on the board for "only" 6 colorless mana...
I didn't test UGW because it seems to greedy to play 3 colors + colorless (u are basically playing 4 color post...) with all the toolbox lands in there i can't see the deck running smoothly.
@k_omega i don't want to go ballistic with ballista here, but he could help to utilize the cost reduction on mindrakul further. i often missed a creature in my graveyard when casting him (u could in theory cast him for 0 and he goes directly into ypur graveyard reducing your mindrakul for 1)...
I'm a long time lurker, this is my first post. I recently made the plunge and bought duals for the first time to transition from mono green over to Bant. I'm looking for some help improving the deck and the sideboard. I haven't tested the sideboard yet, I just threw together something I thought might be good. Here is the list:
Creatures:7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:26
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Show and Tell
2 Song of the Dryads
3 Terminus
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:27
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Vesuva
2 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
2 Meddling Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Swan Song
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sacred Ground
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
1 Nephalia Academy
Any input will be appreciated :)
Okay, I see it's potential usefulness. I do agree it does fit into the U/G build pretty decently. I don't think I would run it mainboard though. Feels much more of a sideboard, A lot of those decks I would rely on a tabernacle to keep them at bay since they have a very particular mana base and it locks them out of playing. I understand not everyone has or can afford a Tabernacle, but I am speaking strictly out of a development point of view. Spot removal is odd in my opinion but increasingly more required. The creatures on the battlefield feel like could be easily handled with All is Dust, Oblivion Stone, Perilous Vault, Ulamog, Worldbreaker, and other pieces that can fit into a U/G build. It also doesn't feel very strong against some our tough match ups. The major selling point would be it's tutor-able with trinket mage and the damage is redirectable to planeswalkers and it's colorless damage (no mom prevention). This is the biggest reason I run Song of the Dryads. Creatures don't feel like an issue most of the time, it's when they get a planeswalker online and start controlling the game state.
To add to your note about mindrakul. She has been a great addition. Simple to cast and can really turn the game state. I really enjoy that you used spellskite to kill your opponent, awesome!
@Roweboater, Nice list! Welcome to the Bant club!
First off, you have a lot of utility lands in the main. Being 3 color, your colors are very important to have the right manabase at all times. This will hurt if you draw into a bojuka bog or glacial chasm and it's not useful unless you've kept a fetch up with a brainstorm. Running 27 lands is almost 50% of the deck so you better make each land drop useful. Run Bojuka in the main if you really need a lot of graveyard hate against your meta. Otherwise keep it on the side.
Second, Singleton Sword to Plowshares makes me feel not confident I would draw into it ever. You could easily make it your 4th Terminus or a 2nd Ugin, 3rd Song of the Dryad, singleton of Worldbreaker. Personally, I took out Ugin because Terminus was doing a much better job and Song of the Dryad would clean up the other non creature targets.
Sideboards are odd usually. They should be built for your meta. I am curious why the singleton Wurmcoil Engine? What would you bring this in against? I've thought about using Meddling Mage but just always doesn't feel that great in this deck especially if you want to Terminus. Sacred Ground is an interesting card, it's been brought up a few times as an alternate to Crucible of Worlds. I haven't tested it but would be interested in how it works for you, still feels like you rather just have Crucible in this slot. Overall your 75 feels very weak against combo. It's one of the worst matchups but this doesn't have much to tackle them, i guess meddling mage and Trinisphere. Nephalia Academy never felt useful to me mainly because discarding hasn't been an issue at all. Slows Liliana, Cabal, and Hymm. If those are played heavily, maybe. Leyline of Sanctity does the same job minus it doesn't stop Liliana, but you could easily use a board wipe or Song of the Dryad to deal with her. 3 color list with too many utility lands that don't produce the proper colors will hurt.
Thanks for the constructive feedback :)
Since switching to Bant I've noticed that Glacial Chasm is less relevant. I'm considering moving it and Bojuka Bog to the side. The biggest change I'll likely make based on your knowledge is:
-1 StP
-1 Ugin
+1 Song of the Dryad's
+1 Worldbreaker?
My idea behind Wurmcoil was to give me another fetchable yet powerful creature to bring in against decks with lots of removal. It seems Innocent Blood has increased in popularity in the local meta.
Nephalia is there because Cabal, Hymn, and other discard are pretty common lately. A good Hymn can be absolutely devastating on occasion.
Swan Song is there against Storm and maybe Burn. There's only one storm player and he doesn't always show up or even play it every time he does show. Eventually to be turned into Flusterstorm.
Trinisphere feels good to me against Delver, Burn, and Storm. But there are other options to consider to hate those specific decks.
How has Worldbreaker been mainboard? I'm not sure why it deserves a spot over say Wurmcoil or Platinum Emperion.
Build to fit your meta! I definitely see the reason for your choices just worried about consistency which i've notice this deck has a problem with. Worldbreaker is a cast effect, like a mini version of Ulamog but cheaper. If you feel Ugin won't work for you, then remove it and add another Swords and keep the existing one. I wouldn't go under 2 in the main for Swords to Plowshares. Song of the Dryad continues to prove its worth in my deck, always locks out very troublesome cards.
As for Worldbreaker main, as stated above, it has a cast effect. Even if they counter it, you can get to blow something up. His recursion ability can be quite useful after the countering as well. Platinum Emperion has not proved himself well. I keep wanting him to work since he is really great against Eldrazi Stompy, but he just fizzles against most other decks. Burn usually will kill it with Smash to Smithereens. Most other decks have an easy way to answer him and like you mentioned Innocent Blood and Diabolic Edict are starting to show their faces again.
I played a small 10 player tournament last night for Grand Prix San Jose testing. Trinisphere proved it's worth decently for me to keep in the side. Delver has an issue with it but late game it wasn't as big of a problem as I would have liked. I ended up pulling up Tabernacle to really lock down their land, having trinisphere plus tabernacle essentially kept them down to 2 lands and relying on Deathrite to keep them running. I was then able to Spin the top to get Terminus running and shut them out.
My build heavily relies on 1 drops to get it's early game it up to speed. Chalice of Void is really rearing it's head lately. How have some of you been dealing with it in your 75? I was thinking either Swan Song, Mindbreak Trap, or something smiliar. Suggestions?? Here is my current sideboard; Link to entire list: Bant Turbo Post
Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dark Depths
3x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Trinisphere
Just wanted to share my current build:
BUG Post
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Primeval Titan
3 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Perilous Vault
3 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
Sideboard
4 Flusterstorm
3 Trinisphere
2 Krosan Grip
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spell Pierce
Really like the addition of black, and it's no problem regarding the manabase. Opponents usually don't try to cut you off one color, and if they do, they will regret soon^^ Tried white for Terminus as well, but it felt bit too slow against Elves and Eldrazi because of the required setup (SDT, Brainstorm etc). Will most likely stick on BUG. Abrupt Decay is a huge improvement compared to Repeal (okay, can't handle Marit Lage...), and Toxic Deluge is almost overpowered.
Completely agree on Toxic Deluge.
Abrupt Decay has never worked out for me, tried it more than once and it never solved the problems i had (but i never had real problems with Chalice while that would be a huge problem for your deck, that's probably relevant). Have you ever thought about Collective Brutality? I like that much more in my list:
- as spotremoval it can get many relevant threats (other than Goyf, it kills pretty much every relevant threat Abrupt Decay can hit)
- as discard it's very useful against combo, and against fair decks that's sometimes useful too
Obivously we don't really want to discard stuff to it to escalate, but the way our decks are built, there are often useless cards in hand for that purpose, so just to have the option to do that can matter. (I would probably replace 2 Abrupt Decays with Collective Brutality.)
Also, Thoughtseize could work as a sideboard card. (I like to mix my answers to combo, so i would probably try to replace 2 Flusterstorms with 2 Thoughtseize. If your manabase can support that - i'm counting just 7 untapped black sources, that could be a problem. I like 10+ untapped black sources in my deck, without Mox Diamonds that's probably not possible.)
@Skriger
I think the changes I'll make for now is up my count of StP to 2 in the main, move Glacial to the side, and throw a Worldbreaker in the main. Just test with that for a while and keep notes of my games.
@Postman
I'd like to hear your reasoning for running things like Sylvan Caryatid, and Perilous Vault over things such as Show and Tell, Mox Diamond, Exploration, All is Dust, Ugin. I get the idea of Perilous Vault but how successful has it been? Do you think being capable of casting it 1-2 turns earlier, when compared to AiD or Ugin, is worth having to lay and possible wait a turn to untap and activate?
I tried 2 Collective Brutality, but I didn't like it :-/ It can get countered, and it doesn't handle Chalice @1. I guess almost every deck with green and black should run at least 3 copies of Abrupt Decay :-)
Didn't try Thoughtseize but Duress in the Sideboard, because I hate the lifeloss and there are very, very few decks where I would choose a creature to be discarded :-/
Let's see... Caryatid is sweet, because it provides several benefits: it blocks the small dudes like Bob, Thalia etc and often saves me 5+x life this way. It ramps, and we are a ramp deck. It's additional color - fixing and great against Blood Moon.
Perilous Vault is great for me, because it solves every problem at instant speed, and if it get's countered, I only "wasted" 4 mana instead of Ugin's 8 or AiD's 7. It can also destroy Eldrazi decks! :-))
I don't play these cards over Show and Tell! If I would add another copy, my deck would be illegal, since I already run the playset ;-)
Used to play 2 Ugin, but it's often a useless card. Not tutorable, doesn't work with Show and Tell, no cast - trigger @cmc8...so it's often a dead card in hand, hiding in the bib when needed or get's countered...
Exploration is only good in the starting 7, and every copy you see in addition is a nightmare. Only play it in good old Lands.
Mox Diamond is no option to me. I would only run a single copy with Trinket Mage toolbox, but it's too expensive in today's legacy for what it does. And I want my lands on the board, not in the yard. There are very, very few I would pitch into a Mox.
Howdy fellow Posters, it's been awhile since I sleeved this deck up but I'm back to it. I took a long detour in RUG lands, which was most instructive.
I've been turning over the different color combinations possible for the deck (max 2, not saying 3 colors aren't feasible but I just don't want to go there: too complex). I'd appreciate any input on what lists you feel are most representative for each of them. This is what I've got going on so far.
UG: I've played against Jeremiah Rudolph and a lot of his builds are really solid. Some are too advanced for me to play, some have weird tech that doesn't apply in the current meta, but a lot of his straightforward builds are just great. I have been using one of the Ponder builds. I suspect that my list here isn't the best, though, because it doesn't seem much better than the other ones. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but if someone has a solid UG list kicking around I'd love to work it.
Mono Green: Here I took the John Kassari list and updated the threats: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=65245. I'm using 1 Ugin here, and this list still kicks lots of butt. The only thing I'm not sure of is the way in which he's incorporated the Dark Depths kill, which I do like to see in all versions.
RG: My sweetheart build, but here I'm stuck brewing. This is the list I have so far. It's a very rough sketch.
// 8 Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
// 9 Creature
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// 2 Enchantment
2 Sneak Attack
// 9 Instant
3 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace
// 28 Land
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Taiga
1 Misty Rainforest
// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 15 Sideboard
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Krosan Grip
2 Splendid Reclamation
I'd love to have a better RG list, though this one does accomplish my mission. Notice how the sideboard is thrown together? I threw it together.
Mission: destroy Miracles and BUG decks, 50/50 Delver, I don't care how much of a dog I am to combo.
In return for assistance I will test other's builds on cockatrice and provide reports.
@Postman
I like the reasoning and agree with it :) I was just curious :p
I can't believe I completely overlooked SnT in your list, what an idiot I am.
If I hadn't just started playing Bant I might be all
Over your BUG version.
I tried a couple of games with the BUG version above. Pretty sweet! The mana is surprisingly (to me) not so bad.
My thoughts on Caryatid are that it's ok, you can get a lot of small edges with this card like not needing to devote an actual land drop for the G Titan demands you have.
I'm not sure that it should get the nod over Moment's Peace if it's primary job is to prevent damage. Moment's Peace is pretty sick.
Hey guys!
I'm back from Grand Prix San Jose and have some small tidbits on the Bant Post. I signed up for the legacy fanatic package so I played in 6 events across 3 days. Day 2 ended up with 120 people, pretty impressed! So I threw my Bant Post and my other deck, EverCopter, into the mix.
Majority of day 1 was combo decks. A ton of people were playing BR Reanimator and BUG variants. So day 1 was very tough and I didn't do so hot. Ended up 1-3. I ran my normal sideboard. Afternoon event was a few better matchups, Bug Control, Nic Fit?(I think, forgot this one), Lands, Mentor Miracle. I went 2-2 that day beating out Bug Control and Lands. Oddly I got wrecked by the Mentor Miracle deck. Mentor really gives them more Tempo and outpace me. I attempted to Terminus a few times yet he would Countertop with his own so that was terrible. Careful with these matchups!
Here was the Sideboard.
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dark Depths
3x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Trinisphere
So on Day 2 my friends and I figured we could conjure up an interesting idea. Stoneforge Mystic sideboard tech! Sounds crazy but hear me out. This deck seems to easily produce white. The idea was to run 2 Batterskulls, It helps with midrange and really helps level off against True Name if Terminus doesn't show up. Hard casting and returning is very simple to do so even if I do wipe the board, return the equipment and recast. 2nd Batterskull was just for the matter of redundancy and extra value if both were kicking on the battlefield. So here is my SPICEY Sideboard;
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Batterskull
3x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dark Depths
3x Surgical Extraction
Went into the morning event with my whacky sideboard hoping to really see it shine, yet same issue as the day before, Lots of combo. The few games I did get to play out with the combo was fairly strong but overall they would turn and go wide to beat me. I also didn't have a good day, some bad plays, missed triggers, just junky play I ended up 0-4. The second event in the day went a lot smoother, kept my stoneforge package. I actually didn't play it as much, most of the time I went for the Surgicals and Dark depth to out pace them.
I really would like to test this idea a little more! It feels like a decent setup for this deck for early/mid-game then it finishes with the Cloudpost eldrazi package if they aren't dead yet.
Day 3 was fun but got screwed over by my last opponent. essentially we should've split to allow for us both to maximize our tickets but he wished to play it out instead (globins) and he won. I was 2-2 that event. The last event I ran my other brew of EverCopter and went 3-1 which is another story for another Primer :D
My gut reaction is that it's not gonna be great because combo tends to be more problematic for this sort of deck, but I like thinking outside the box and hey, it's worth a try. I've been playing around with Temporal Aperture myself, but my guess is it's more funny - hilarious, actually - than it is practical.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Has anyone else tried ballista?
You mean Walking Ballista? We started a conversation about it a few comments back. I feel it takes a bit too much to get it running efficiently but I also see it's advantages as a good removal or finisher. It's searchable with Trinket Mage which is super helpful.Has anyone else tried ballista?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote