[SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

[ironclad8690]

I think an interesting factor is that when survival was banned, they hadn't created modern yet. Maybe they felt as though they had to police legacy with bannings based on statistics like "half of 5 scg legacy top 4s". In fact, compared with recent gp top 32s, that statistic even becomes laughable. Imagine if they used the same philosophy for fair decks with delver or force, combo decks with griselbrand. Theres barely any diversity in competitive creature based decks anymore anyways.

[mistercakes]

anyway, could be fun to play some games on xmage with a survival deck if anyone wants to jam some games.

[sdematt]

Could easily come back, but since theyre basically not managing the format, they wont. If they do, Ill be on RGBSA so fast it'll make your head spin.

[Vicar in a tutu]

If Survival of the Fittest is unbanned and proves to be a viable (but not overpowered) card in legacy, what do you think its price would be? According to TCG, the market price currently stands at 45$. For the record, I think the chance of it being unbanned in the near future is very slim. Not because WoTC doesn't "care" about legacy in terms of the B&R-list (as recently as 2015 they banned and unbanned two cards), but because there are other cards on the banned list that are safer to unban. Frantic Search, for example. Maybe also Earthcraft.

[Stevestamopz]

If Survival of the Fittest is unbanned and proves to be a viable (but not overpowered) card in legacy, what do you think its price would be? According to TCG, the market price currently stands at 45$. For the record, I think the chance of it being unbanned in the near future is very slim. Not because WoTC doesn't "care" about legacy in terms of the B&R-list (as recently as 2015 they banned and unbanned two cards), but because there are other cards on the banned list that are safer to unban. Frantic Search, for example. Maybe also Earthcraft.

Two things

1: Survival is a reserved list card so it's price would skyrocket like there is no tomorrow and;

2: Wotc don't care about legacy, they only unbanned 2 cards because they were forced to ban Cruise and Dig just so we would all shut up.

Recruiter #1 on that list of cards to unban doe. Inb4 Lemnear has a go at me.

[Gheizen64]

Two things

1: Survival is a reserved list card so it's price would skyrocket like there is no tomorrow and;

2: Wotc don't care about legacy, they only unbanned 2 cards because they were forced to ban Cruise and Dig just so we would all shut up.

Recruiter #1 on that list of cards to unban doe. Inb4 Lemnear has a go at me.

Doubt recruiter would make goblin playable again, but i'd love to have it around.

[Lemnear]

Seriously. I haven't gone through the entire thread, but every list I've seen does things it shouldn't bother doing. Where are the streamlined, cohesive decklists?

This, Jona. Most lists are in danger of stumbling over their own inconsistency caused by all the cute stuff, which is all plain dead if a) no StoF is present or b) the yard is shut off.

[btm10]

This, Jona. Most lists are in danger of stumbling over their own inconsistency caused by all the cute stuff, which is all plain dead if a) no StoF is present or b) the yard is shut off.

This is true, but the problem (that likely can't be resolved without significant testing) is that it's unclear what the ideal Survival list "should" be doing. You probably want to allow for some kind of combo package/ nut draw while still having the ability to play a grindy value Survival game, but you have to decide which package to run, how deep to go on it, and what the backup plan looks like. Even the opitmal colors aren't clear (though my guess is 4 color not red).

[Lemnear]

This is true, but the problem (that likely can't be resolved without significant testing) is that it's unclear what the ideal Survival list "should" be doing. You probably want to allow for some kind of combo package/ nut draw while still having the ability to play a grindy value Survival game, but you have to decide which package to run, how deep to go on it, and what the backup plan looks like. Even the opitmal colors aren't clear (though my guess is 4 color not red).

I agree as the required testing would have to consider a shifting metagame caused by an unbanning of SotF, but I guess we can all agree that the build should not struggle over inconsistency issues cause by running dozens of cards which are dead without survival itself. I think the cards use should be limited to a card-quality + silverbullet engine given that DRS is everywhere and most graveyard combos like Retainer are critical to pull off unless you bring them in from your SB against decks soft to that angle. There is nothing wrong to run catch-alls like Reclamation Sage in the deck to handle problematic permanents if you don't want to run your own MD Decays (similar to what elves are doing), but as i said in previous posts, silverbullets should not get out of hand or you end up with too much conditional stuff drawn or in your opener. In terms of color, I have troubles seeing white mana justified other than for Thalia/Teeg. We don't need Plowshares with Fatal Push and Decay already on-color.

[Purple Blood]

What about a Sneak attack Survival list? Possibly even a RUG Sneak/Survival/Show list? Is that just getting too cute at that point? I like the idea of being able to tutor into play any creature in the game for RG and/or being able to tutor for something to show and tell in on the spot.

If you're going the aggressive route that's where its gotta be IMO.

Using the current Sneak and Show lists you'd do something like remove some combo of Top/Intuition/Preordain/Probe/Misdirection/Jace (i.e. the flex slots) for Survival and a package of low cost creatures that double as discard fodder. But what creatures would you want to be discarding to tutor up your fatties? Squee most likely is a shoe in.

---

I could also see Bloodghast being really nice in a value list. You can easily get four of them in play once you discard them to each other and can end the cycle with a Dryad Arbor if you don't have a land. But even then you're talking 4G for 8 power. Not super impressive.

[Megadeus]

All of these things sounds fucking sweet and completely fucking awful. Show and tell Griselbrand. Nice Survival Deck asshole. Omniscience cast emrakul. Go fuck yourself. Turn 1 Revoker survival. Turn 2 Thoughtknot. Fuck off.

[mistercakes]

In a format where bug decks doing completely fair things just won a grand prix, there sure are a lot of assumptions being made....

Just do some testing and after a few weeks if it still is just marginal, then fine. All the opinions don't really add much value to this conversation when we already have a format that is pretty defined right now.

It's unlikely anyone will have the optimal version since everyone is mostly theorycrafting now anyway. Isn't the title of this thread SotF challenge? And not complain about other decks? There's another thread for that.

[ironclad8690]

Bug and taxes are currently the best fair things to be doing, so I think a BUG value list with ooze combo or GW with retainers combo would likely be the best. They each do good fair impressions but have a combo plan that they can go for when the opponent gives them an opportunity. I guess it depends on if you want to abuse blue or hate on it.

Phyrexian Revoker would be a nice card to include to turn off DRS, and Misdirection might be worth playing 3 of.

Also, have you guys watched these?

https://youtu.be/7t7w4w2vC9c?list=PL...SbxfEfdghb3Ud-

[dte]

I don't know much about building the best survival deck, and I am too lazy to try, especially given that the card will stick in the banlist imo.

But just seeing how much it would improve elves, which is already a good deck, is enough to let it on the banlist.

[Stevestamopz]

Booting this up again.

Have bought some Survival cards on Modo. Can somebody from the intelligentsia suggest me a good decklist? I only play EDH so I have no idea. I also have no idea how to beat Deathrite Shaman outside of "survival for a single Revoker and hope they don't kill it."

[ESG]

I also have no idea how to beat Deathrite Shaman outside of "survival for a single Revoker and hope they don't kill it."

It's way better to kill a Deathrite Shaman than to disable it, which is likely to be very temporary. Also, if your Survival deck fears Deathrite Shaman and has a shortage of answers to it, you've built the deck wrong. When building a deck, I always start by asking what decks I want to beat, and then I start crafting lists of cards that are good against those decks. The only requirement to getting good value out of Survival is that your deck is mostly creatures. You could very likely do well with Survival in Goblins. The point is that your creature-heavy deck should still be competitive when it doesn't have Survival online.

[Stevestamopz]

It's way better to kill a Deathrite Shaman than to disable it, which is likely to be very temporary. Also, if your Survival deck fears Deathrite Shaman and has a shortage of answers to it, you've built the deck wrong. When building a deck, I always start by asking what decks I want to beat, and then I start crafting lists of cards that are good against those decks. The only requirement to getting good value out of Survival is that your deck is mostly creatures. You could very likely do well with Survival in Goblins. The point is that your creature-heavy deck should still be competitive when it doesn't have Survival online.

>If your "use the graveyard heavily deck" loses to Deathrite Shaman, you've built the deck wrong.

There is probably a reason Deathrite is played by 40% of all top8 decks, and it's not just because it makes Goblin pilots commit seppuku.

I really have no idea how to build this deck to the point that warrants Survival's banning and I put it to everyone mocking everyone else's attempts on here that they have no idea either (not looking at you ESG).

DnT + Survival is just a shitty DnT deck. Loyal Retainers + Legend will never win a fight against Deathrite Shaman in this lifetime. It's also the worst decklist ever to try and put Emrakul or Grisel or Ioana into play. Vengevines are laughable, especially now that everyone is playing 2-3 Surgicals in their sb.

For Survival to be broken, it's going to need someone to reinvent the wheel and at this stage, there are too many limiting factors (really good grave hate has been printed since, combo has sped up 2 or 3 turns since Survival was good, fair decks all have Deathrite Shaman and other really really really good cards like Brainstorm and True-Name and Force of Will and DnT blah blah blah.

Just to stress this once more, I would really love a decklist so that I can do something Re: Survival for the podcast.

I am not trolling in any way shape or form.

[Fox]

@Stevestamopz I doubt a Survival deck is going to be run without 4x DRS of its own on top of 4x Survival, 4x Decay, and 4x Rootwalla (dicarded unto exile, not the yard). How exactly is enemy DRS going to stop you? If you're rounding out that deck, you'll probably want 4-6 slots of discard, and 1-2 Collective Brutality isn't antithetical to your strategy while also killing DRS. Additional non-creature spells could easily be an amount of Noxious Revival for redundancy, anti-yard combo, and screwing up enemy DRS further. Continuing down such a path you're looking at whatever creature soup you want for combo and blue decks, but need to answer the 'dies to goyf' fair question. Easiest way to answer Goyf issue is running your own, but a playset isn't really where you want to be....so with the tutoring let's say that 1x Goyf is a nice hedge. Second most common way to answer Goyf is equipment, so again with the tutoring, let's say that 1x SFM + Bskull & Jitte. Sure a removal spell stops a Goyf, but you're looking more for creature-based answers like deathtouch mechanic or flashy stuff like Vengeful Pharaoh (engine card) or Shriekmaw.

You can take Survival a number of color directions, but no matter what, you're never beating Counterbalance without Decay. You should stay away from BUG (despite the BG core) b/c you're making a crappy Aluren deck (crappy b/c it doesn't use Aluren). You can go heavy on yard-centric combo focus with stuff like Vengevine, but this is the most hated zone and heavy yard use should probably just make a Griselbrand or be some overly elaborate Welder shenanigans. Tutoring out uninteractive wins with [insert white hatebear] probably makes the most sense. Jund colors don't seem productive.

Abzan core trying to be different from, and more competitive than, Vet/Therapy core decks (NicFit). Looking to cheese out wins I'd go with a deck like:
4x Decay
4x SotF
4x Thoughtsieze
2x Coll. Brutality
2x Noxious Revival
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte (18)

4x DRS
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x SFM
3x Thalia
1x Goyf
1x Ethersworn
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob (we're never casting this) or Grave Scrabbler
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Rec. Sage
1x Meren or Eternal Witness
1x Shriekmaw (22)

20 lands? Probably no Cradle. Perhaps 7 dual lands (4x Bayou, 2x Savannah, 1x Scrubland), 8 Fetches, Karakas, a basic Forest, and 3 more lands of some sort...Let's just call it fetches 9&10 and a Volrath's Stronghold.

SB to include the obligatory 3x Surgical, 4th Thalia, maybe some StP, 3 slots of discard, another flex equip, Containment Priest, Kataki seems fine, and whatever else you want. Lilly, Last hope also seems fine in a deck like this.

[Captain Hammer]

What about Vengevine. No one cared about survival till Vine got printed, then Survival became viable and immediately got banned. So I think any Survival list is incomplete without Vengevinez

[Fox]

What about Vengevine. No one cared about survival till Vine got printed, then Survival became viable and immediately got banned. So I think any Survival list is incomplete without Vengevinez

Dies to Goyf, why aren't you running a castable threat (Goyf) instead. Both are yard based, but Goyf doesn't require comboing off - Goyf is a 1 card combo. The issue then with being a dedicated Goyf deck is that it's probably worse than Shardless or BUG Delver (also a SotF deck is more likely to draw yard hate).