All B/R update speculation.

[LeoCop 90]

Since this thread has been quiet for too long, i'll just ask a dumb question : what would happen if tolarian academy was legal in legacy?

I'm not being a troll, i realize it is a totally broken card but i fail to understand the shells that could adopt the card. After all, it's not vintage where you can play all the 0 cost artifacts in the world. I suppose an affinity build with academy would probably be too good, but is there anything else? would academy be more broken than cradle in elves ?


of course, it's also time to start talking about a brainstorm ban again XD

[Dice_Box]

There are a lot of smarter people than I who would work on that effect. My view? Second Sunrise would be a fantastic card to play in a deck that also ran Academy. That's before I celebrate with Stax.

[nedleeds]

You're asking the wrong question. There doesn't need to be a shell. It's a powerful enough card that it would create new deck(s). Academy is a card whose banning is pretty much raw power in land form, similar to shop, bazaar and to a lesser extent Library.

[CutthroatCasual]

As I said, you get what you look for here. If your only planing to post in this thread, shits going to pile. But that's why you don't talk about politics at the dinner table. You will get what you ask for.

I like The Source for its more laid back, less sanitised feel. That said I try to stop bullying and bullshit when it arises. But if you start a thread external of this one about the ban list and then beg for it to stay open, expect the trolling you then receive. Because we try and keep the bullshit to one location. When you start a thread that is "Whats you political leaning, the MTG edition" and then ask for us not to close it, people have two choices. They can arm themselves up for a fight or unilaterally disarm the thread. Doesn't help when the OP has no understanding of sarcasm or subtly.

My issue with Reddit is one of the sites design as well as the communities use therefore of. I dislike reputation systems on sites. It's not a democratic system so much as it is "Do you like this comment" system. I saw a post about Legacy in the main MTG sub that was not about how expensive the format is, so the discussions in said thread all became about cost and the post got downvoted to hell. Why? Because people were not looking for the info in said thread, they were looking for their own views to be confirmed. At any time somes says something that did not conform to those views they got quashed.

No that I am looking to start a site war. People will go to the site that suits them. Personally, Reddit to me feels like a library, where you will get told to be quite if your making noise that others dislike, Salvation feels like a Hospital where everything is so sanitised and clean and The Source feels like a Pub. Not always politically correct but the environment is fun and it has a kind of freedom to it.

The only reason I go to Reddit for MTG discussion is because it's the most accessible forum for general topics. It's probably one of the worst if not the worst MTG forum (the main sub anyway) on the internet, but it's the only one that has new content regularly. And 100% agree with you on that Legacy bit in the main sub. Any post that's not calling for the abolishment of the RL or that doesn't bitch about prices is converted into a discussion that does. In that respect, the main-sub's community is cancer at its finest.

[Gheizen64]

Even if Tolarian didn't straight created a new OP archetype (which is very probable, but i admit the card doesn't have an obvious shell since artifact decks are pretty not-good in legacy right now, and there's no jewerly to make it a super powerful card T1), the big issue i see with tolarian is the same i have with Library, it's reserved and already expensive. Make it legal in legacy and you would see it cost a billion.

Also the card is medicore in MUD artifact decks, but try it in a storm shel and it's insane. Load on moxens, LEDs, petals, tops, candelabra and a couple artifact lands and the land regularly tap for UUU - UUUU. Yeah no.

[CutthroatCasual]

the big issue i see with tolarian is the same i have with Library, it's reserved and already expensive. Make it legal in legacy and you would see it cost a billion.

It's like $20. But I see your point: in Legacy it would be a 3 or 4-of (like Cradle in Elves) so that would spike the price to at least Cradle levels, if not higher if the deck brewed around it is actually good.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

It produces blue and relies on artifact, which is harder to interact with than creatures.

There is no doubt it will be at least as expensive as Cradle, and likely more

[Lord Seth]

You're asking the wrong question. There doesn't need to be a shell. It's a powerful enough card that it would create new deck(s). Academy is a card whose banning is pretty much raw power in land form, similar to shop, bazaar and to a lesser extent Library.

Was Bazaar actually all that good before Dredge? It apparently was on the original Legacy banlist so apparently it was doing something problematic, but without Dredge I'm not really sure how it's "raw power in land form."

[Megadeus]

Was Bazaar actually all that good before Dredge? It apparently was on the original Legacy banlist so apparently it was doing something problematic, but without Dredge I'm not really sure how it's "raw power in land form."

I can think of many ways that don't use the dredge mechanic that would be excellent in legacy with the card. Free loot with Reanimator being one of them

[Dice_Box]

It was a haymaker in Dragon. Both your engine and your most efficient win condition.

In Stax it's used alongside Crucible to filter. Because you don't mind ditching Lands or spells you don't want to hit with the most efficient ones. The card is an engine if you can "Fix" It's effect somehow. That's not a hard ask in an eternal format thanks to the card pool.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I would literally wake up masturbating thinking about what I could do with that in Loam.dec

Now what I thought you read was "I would do a lot of thinking about it"

What I meant was "I would wake up masturbating thinking about what I could do with that in Loam.dec"

I stole a bit from Parks and Rec to prove a point, that should be enough.

[Crimhead]

Was Bazaar actually all that good before Dredge? It apparently was on the original Legacy banlist so apparently it was doing something problematic, but without Dredge I'm not really sure how it's "raw power in land form."

I wasn't playing or following Legacy very much before Ravnica. But I did know some people who were into Vintage, and Tog Madness was a pretty strong deck for a while.

[Gheizen64]

Just for reference, this is an old list that i did for the unbanned card challenge some years ago. I just had to do this first rough draft to convince myself the card is just GROSS:

// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 8 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

// 17 Land
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
2 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn

// 15 Sorcery
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtcast
3 Time Spiral


// 3 Sideboard
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 1 Time Spiral
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot

[nedleeds]

Was Bazaar actually all that good before Dredge? It apparently was on the original Legacy banlist so apparently it was doing something problematic, but without Dredge I'm not really sure how it's "raw power in land form."

It is in fact raw power in land form. The first use was with the egg, which they fixed by the Spring. In reanimation or any graveyard combo deck. Now imagine it with Brainstorms, Ponders and 4 LEDs. It's disgustingly powerful. But to your point, the dredge mechanic made it possible to literally build a deck around it's existence. The card has gotten more and more busted over the years.

Edit: But I own 9 just in case.

[rlesko]

The more I think about it, the more I want deathrite to get banned. That card should not have two toughness, and should not generate any color of mana. The utility of the card is too high. There are many ways the card could be "fixed", but thats a pointless discussion since wizards can't retroactively edit it. I do like one thing about the card and it is the fact that it gives nonblue decks an axis of interaction against decks like reanimator and storm. But overall deathrite reduces format diversity and thus, should be banned.

[apple713]

The more I think about it, the more I want deathrite to get banned. That card should not have two toughness, and should not generate any color of mana. The utility of the card is too high. There are many ways the card could be "fixed", but thats a pointless discussion since wizards can't retroactively edit it. I do like one thing about the card and it is the fact that it gives nonblue decks an axis of interaction against decks like reanimator and storm. But overall deathrite reduces format diversity and thus, should be banned.

First off i don't see shardless running away with the format right now. So even a deck that its most used in isn't outperforming. Furthermore, the utility of DRS is not oppressive like mental misstep. If you want to argue that it reduces format diversity it must rise to a level similar to mental misstep because i think that was the last card banned based on that evaluation, or at least for a similar reason. It increases format diversity by giving green / black the ability to splash other colors. Additionally, there are other cards that decrease format diversity much more than DRS...(see: brainstorm / force of will)

[rlesko]

First off i don't see shardless running away with the format right now. So even a deck that its most used in isn't outperforming. Furthermore, the utility of DRS is not oppressive like mental misstep. If you want to argue that it reduces format diversity it must rise to a level similar to mental misstep because i think that was the last card banned based on that evaluation, or at least for a similar reason. It increases format diversity by giving green / black the ability to splash other colors. Additionally, there are other cards that decrease format diversity much more than DRS...(see: brainstorm / force of will)

The fact that you talk about force of will decreasing format diversity (as if banning force would be GOOD for the format?) and only associate deathrite with shardless bug are two huge red flags to engage you in this discussion. Nevertheless, blue decks and nonblue decks both want to play 4x shaman. it doesn't give green / black the ability to splash colors... it gives blue the ability to splash color intensive things like abrupt decay. You want to make a bet which color casts deathrite more often (green or black)? Green is a total after thought on the card...

[aspsnake]

It's cool that this thread exists, so I'll drop my 2 cents.

I do think that people suggesting banning of Brainstorm or Counterbalance, or even Chalice, are funny, and I'm not suggesting to nerf any specific strategy harshly, but let's just go into mtgtop8's percentage of decks.

Miracles and BUG midranges are having an absurd growth: Miracles with the printing of Monastery Mentor and BUG with the printing of many good cards in the colors. I don't mind playing against either of these decks, but when percentages go over 12% (currently it's 15% for Miracles and rising and 13% for BUG Midrange) and rising, it's slightly worrying. The closest are Grixis Delver (6%) and Show&Tell (6%). Now that's quite a gap :p

Therefore, I do think that to solve this the best thing is to ban Monastery Mentor. Previously, Miracles didn't have a solid way to win and had to rely only on Jace/Entreat, not they are so much harder to break, while having a positive game against almost everything. BUG could take a hit too (e.g. Leovold), but possibly the fewer presence of Miracles could give some boost to aggro decks, which mostly a good game against BUG, and it could be enough on its own.

Thoughts?

[Megadeus]

I agree that deathrite is a completely absurd warping card. I hate it. It's a piece of shit. It just gives blue a mana dork which they didn't need. Combine that with its grave hate ability and basically any deck that tries to use the graveyard as a second resource to operate in a fair way is completely awful. Loam is the only thing still around and that's because you can derp out a 20/20. Zombie stuff was pretty cool. Vengevine is fun but unplayable. Lingering Souls sees very little play despite its power against both of the top decks in miracles and BUG. That and enabling insane 4 color mana bases that includes wasteland is completely absurd.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Banning DRS in Modern was a great move by Wizards because much like everyone here says, it just gives blue a mana dork with graveyard protections. It's all around great and the worst part is you don't even need to use it in BG shells, it fits very well in anything with UB. I don't know about it being too good in Legacy, there are a few other cards I'd hit first, but I think it was a great ban for Modern so maybe it would be good here too. I don't think black should have access to good mana dorks without green.

As for banning Monastery Mentor because Miracles and BUG midrange are on the rise, I don't think that makes any sense. Brainstorm makes way more sense since it hits Miracles HARD as well as every other (far over-represented) blue deck medium hard. Mentor is annoying but you abuse it by cantripping, so removing the Draw 3 makes by far the most sense. Sure, double top makes a lot of mentor tokens as well, but the consistency of hitting that would be less without the fix-all in brainstorm. Getting Terminus in your opening hand would be a mulligan instead of what it is right now (not detrimental). Also, Delver decks would take a huge hit by not guaranteeing the flip (off of Brainstorm...).