[Primer] Elves!

[Shagstaman]

Elves has a positive match up against Dnt. No need to bring progenitus or any other sideboard card.

I normally try to avoid blanket statements and black/white reasoning...but you're wrong. DnT is a positive GAME 1 matchup. If we sideboard nothing, they actually get a ton of percentage points, especially depending on their configuration. A smart DnT player WILL punish you for fighting them on the same axis two games in a row.

Bring in decays, progenitus, and needle effects. It's not the stone cold gospel...but as close as it comes.

;)

[dte]

D&T is a bye. No need for progenitus, just bring in decay and jitte if you play it, needle effects.
They cannot really punish you.

I think progenitus is really just a wasted SB slot.

[blablub]

Hey Guys,
i hope a question like this is ok because i have nothing to contribute to this thread sorry. I would like to know your opinion about Pithing Needle against you. Well, i know what it does but i'm not sure if its worth it. For Clarification i'm working on my Delver Sideboard and lookin for cards which are overlapping. If i play RUG and taking out your DRS or Symbiote-Card-Advantage....this sounds good to me :) Thanx for your help ;)

[resum]

D&T is a bye. No need for progenitus, just bring in decay and jitte if you play it, needle effects.
They cannot really punish you.

I think progenitus is really just a wasted SB slot.

I would not call dnt anywhere near a bye anymore after CN2. recruiter adds more consistency to their deck in finding important lock pieces and flying clocks. I've had a higher win rate vs delver than dnt since CN2.

[JermStudDog]

Being primarily a D&T player myself, CN2 has done basically nothing to solve the Elves problem for the deck. The best new card we have access to on the D&T side of the table is Thalia 2.0 and she's largely been cut because she doesn't do enough for everything that isn't Miracles (a MU that was majorly affected in a positive way by CN2) and Elves (a MU that is so bad that even with 2-3 answers, we are STILL likely to just die on turn 5-6).

I played the MU just last week and faced down a turn 3 hoof with StP, got a Jitte swinging away making elves disappeared, and STILL died to elf beats because that's how it goes. My opponent happened to have Progenitus for G2 and that card definitely seals the deal, but I do think it's worth consideration that he may not be necessary in the MU in the first place. D&T is simply too slow and ineffective in dealing with the elves game plan. You are losing post-board percentage points, but you're probably dropping from a 90/10 MU to a 65/35 MU. The SB space is probably worth more than those extra points in an already solidly positive MU.

tldr: Thalia 2.0 is D&Ts answer to elves, and while she's good (if a bit slow) in that MU, she doesn't do enough in enough other MUs to be worth a spot in the deck at the moment, it's not worth overboarding for that MU when there are other places to pick up bigger gains with the limited SB space available.

[Julian23]

Thalia 2.0 is super annoying, thankful we don't see her that often. Of all the regularly played cards, a turn2 Ethersworn Canonist causes the by far biggest issues for me, most of the time.

[Shagstaman]

disclaimer: I know it's a positive matchup.

Yall must be playing against some really bad DnT players or your metas are so warped that they just don't care about trying to beat elves at all. I still beat the deck 80+% of the time, but saying you shouldn't sb vs them and to just ignore a card that says "i win" vs them (and other matchups..) is foolishness. When you guys lose to an actual DnT player at a GP or something outside your local meta, maybe you'll listen to what I'm preaching. Until then enjoy your "byes" vs your terrible opponents.

[plowshares]

disclaimer: I know it's a positive matchup.

Yall must be playing against some really bad DnT players or your metas are so warped that they just don't care about trying to beat elves at all. I still beat the deck 80+% of the time, but saying you shouldn't sb vs them and to just ignore a card that says "i win" vs them (and other matchups..) is foolishness. When you guys lose to an actual DnT player at a GP or something outside your local meta, maybe you'll listen to what I'm preaching. Until then enjoy your "byes" vs your terrible opponents.

This is pure truth. Everyone needs to read this.

[Berka0815]

I find myself very often in the situation to turn1 zenith for dryad arbor. What is your experience or in other words when does it make sense to accelerate instead of keeping the zenith for a more valuable play in the later turns?

[Noctalor]

I find myself very often in the situation to turn1 zenith for dryad arbor. What is your experience or in other words when does it make sense to accelerate instead of keeping the zenith for a more valuable play in the later turns?

The variables are honestly too many to just give an answer, you should try to be adaptive and not to stick to bread and butter plays.

Generally you want to have some kind of turn 1 play.
Generally you want to have more than 2 mana on turn 2.
Generally you need at least 1 value spell to start doing nasty things.

So, if you dont have any way to ramp mana besides the zenith, you have another big card/visionary+simbio allowing you to "waste" the zenith you are likely going for it, this if you don't know the MU you are facing, because that would change the variables quita a bit.

[Julian23]

If I have no other reasonable acceleration (like 1 mana Elves + Heritage + 2nd land in hand), I will always GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Even when I think I might be able to get something better on turn3. Doing something like GSZ=1 for DRS just feels absolutely awful. I want to accelerate as soon and as hard as I can. You can always draw into business, but the tempo advantage of acceleration is never bigger than on the very first turn.

[resum]

If I have no other reasonable acceleration (like 1 mana Elves + Heritage + 2nd land in hand), I will always GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Even when I think I might be able to get something better on turn3. Doing something like GSZ=1 for DRS just feels absolutely awful. I want to accelerate as soon and as hard as I can. You can always draw into business, but the tempo advantage of acceleration is never bigger than on the very first turn.

not every one of us gets a free vamp tutor every turn :P.

I'll likely fire off the gsz = 0 with no other accelerators unless i have a plan with birchlore or heritage.

[abombdiggity]

We get our edge in the early game by getting a mana advantage over our opponents. GSZ for a Dryad Arbor is essentially getting to play a second land on turn one while also making our subsequent cradles and t2 Quirion Rangers (and thus also t2 Glimpse chains for value) better. While Deathrite Shaman is our best T1 play in the blind due to its non-mana abilities, if you can untap with an active Arbor it will often lead to more explosive early turns than any other T1 play.

[jjkbb2005]

Hey guys, I was wondering your opinion Gaddock Teeg. I've really been on the fence regarding whether he deserves a slot in our SB as oftentimes he feels too fragile in matchups where he the potential to have an impact on the game (i.e. Miracles). I also feel my poor opinion may be result of me not playing him correctly or not being entirely certain which MUs he comes in besides Storm and Miracles (I'm assuming Show and Tell as well possibly Aluren). Some insight would be appreciated so I can fully maximize his potential when testing.

I've also come to believe that Shaman of the Pack is underrated card that gives us an out against many decks (clogged boardstates against Mentor tokens, Lands, 12-post, even Delver). Maybe worth a second look?

Lastly what are your opinions regarding the mana base when running Leovold? I'm wary of being able to cosistently cast him with only 2 Birch, 4 DRS, and 2 CoS. I know Julian was able to run him in the recent Legacy Challenge without the Trop but his effect is so powerful that it may be worth diluting the manabase in order to jam him more consistently.

[catmint]

I recently played a chaos list with Leovold and 1 trop, but I also played 1 Edric in the SB.
Since I am a fan of 3 birchlore (not only because of fixing but also because of acceleration if disrupted) I also did run Leovold without the trop and it seemed ok in my limited testing. The situation where I could not cast him but had a fetch for a trop did come up though once or twice.

Against storm or any combo deck if GSZ for x=3 is available - Leovold is the better choice imo, because they need their cantrips. However GSZ for x=2 Teeg a turn earlier is surely better against storm.

Vs. Show and tell I would rather wait a turn to have GSZ for Leovold instead of GSZ for Teeg. But in this MU you need discard early anyway – so this is not that relevant.

Vs. Miracles my tactic is to drop Teeg, Leovold, Edric, other lords, planeswalkers - to have an impact without overcomitting too many small dudes. Teeg fits this plan very well.

If I am on chaos elves, teeg is also very strong in the mirror.

So in general – Yes Teeg definitely deserves his slot.

[Noctalor]

Hey guys, I was wondering your opinion Gaddock Teeg. I've really been on the fence regarding whether he deserves a slot in our SB as oftentimes he feels too fragile in matchups where he the potential to have an impact on the game (i.e. Miracles). I also feel my poor opinion may be result of me not playing him correctly or not being entirely certain which MUs he comes in besides Storm and Miracles (I'm assuming Show and Tell as well possibly Aluren). Some insight would be appreciated so I can fully maximize his potential when testing.

I've also come to believe that Shaman of the Pack is underrated card that gives us an out against many decks (clogged boardstates against Mentor tokens, Lands, 12-post, even Delver). Maybe worth a second look?

Lastly what are your opinions regarding the mana base when running Leovold? I'm wary of being able to cosistently cast him with only 2 Birch, 4 DRS, and 2 CoS. I know Julian was able to run him in the recent Legacy Challenge without the Trop but his effect is so powerful that it may be worth diluting the manabase in order to jam him more consistently.

I am currently playing Shaman of the Pack and I think the card is a core component of any grindy game against miracle, they often let us beat them even to 1 hp, so having direct instant damage really helps, it sucks that a Terminus can still shut it down but hey, that card is broken for a reason.

I also had to win via SotP against different decks recently, I like how the card performs as a dirty visionary paired with simbio, we are not going to draw cards but dealing 8 damage per turn is ok

[abombdiggity]

I did not like Gaddock Teeg. He shuts off GSZ and NO (even Nissa postboard) and forces us to rely on Glimpse vs miracles, which will lead to us overextending, and Visionary/Symbiote vs Storm, which is too slow. Storm is in the business of cantripping for a perfect hand/answers anyway, and shutting off our payoff spells just to have it answered EOT by a chain of vapor etc just feels really bad.

It also seems like a liability against Miracles, as they can just swords/CJ him and terminus away. Even worse is that as a 2/2 he just gets eaten by a Snapcaster during combat.

I only tested him for about 50 or so games like 2 years ago, but I cut him immediately after the 3rd or 4th time I resolved him against storm and ended up losing- probably 75+% of the time i found that Scavenging Ooze was just better when I was GSZing for two, and now that we have leovold, who is better against every other non-terminus card miracles has and shuts down ANT pretty hard- (the threat of Mindbreak Trap is definitely real) I don't think I've really wanted it in my 75.

Was very happy with him in the chaos variants. (Cavern on Advisor, not kithkin, as leo is an advisor as well), but I much prefer the NO variants, especially online and in a GP meta.

Edit: tested Shaman at your suggestion post Louisville, I wish I could find the room for him, I really enjoyed having access to that effect.

[grizzlybears]

I am curious about 'Choke' for a while.

We used to gear Choke in SB against blue decks,
and I think it is still good for "miracles" and "BUGs" matchups now .
But weirdly it is gone from recent deck lists.

May I know why?
Thanks.

[dte]

I am curious about 'Choke' for a while.

We used to gear Choke in SB against blue decks,
and I think it is still good for "miracles" and "BUGs" matchups now .
But weirdly it is gone from recent deck lists.

May I know why?
Thanks.

I cannot speak for all, but personnally I cutted it because I grew bored to be 2 for 1'ed by wear tear. But that does not hold for the people playing sylvan library, which I cut also.
Also, the format became less blue since the banning of DTT. I had run up to 3 to 4 choke by then, and I believe it is still a decent card.
Besides, recently I started to play tropical islands, so I wont sleeve up a choke in legacy before a while :)

[abombdiggity]

I cannot speak for all, but personnally I cutted it because I grew bored to be 2 for 1'ed by wear tear. But that does not hold for the people playing sylvan library, which I cut also.

The BUG lists also run Abrupt Decay. Tapping out on t2/3 for a choke feels bad when they have access to 4 answers that leave us at a tempo disadvantage.