[Deck] The Rock

[Chatto]

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

Narnam Renegade? Nice card... Needs Revolt to get to be 2/3, and is otherwise just a 1/1 Deathtouche creature.

[lavafrogg]

Narnam Renegade? Nice card... Needs Revolt to get to be 2/3, and is otherwise just a 1/1 Deathtouche creature.

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

[Tokugawa]

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

The second line of Glissa's rule text, in fact, is FLAVOR TEXT. Don't build your deck around 1-2 narrowest/weakest card.

[lavafrogg]

The second line of Glissa's rule text, in fact, is FLAVOR TEXT. Don't build your deck around 1-2 narrowest/weakest card.

I don't think any of the deathtouch cards are worth it. The reason strix is so strong is because he cantrips, usually netting a 2-1 in your favor.

The deathtouch creatures do nothing against the most popular deck in the format, Miracles, or our worst matchups, combo.

[damionblackgear]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

[CptHaddock]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

I think you were the one to say this previously but the biggest problem with all these cards is that they are very narrow in what combo decks they are good against. While 3ball is fantastic against decks like storm, infect and some draws of elves it loses it's luster when you're playing against show and tell decks. Retreat just seems really slow and I feel like it doesn't really do that much. 2 life is okay in a deck where you are playing confidants but the +1/+1 counter isn't really that important when your beaters are essentially some of the most efficient in the format.

Honestly I think that the best answer to combo (for just BG) is a combination of discard and cranial extraction effects. Lost legacy is a card that can be brought in against almost every combo deck (darn you painter!). I think that currently aside from some fringe combo decks here and there the big 3 are elves, storm and show & tell decks (primarily sneak based ones). Lost legacy helps combat these decks but can also fight against some of the fair decks.

[lavafrogg]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

In the combo matchup, we will just never have a real chance at stopping them from killing us turn 0-1-2. On our turn 2 hymns, spheres and hatebears come online which is good, but still in the combo players favor.

The majority of my combo wins throughout the years have all came from similar blueprints. Discard plus a quick bob and/or goyf to seal the deal. Memoricide effexts, going back to cranial extraction, have always been my endgame because they always have uses against other decks besides just combo.

With the printing of Lost Legacy I think the proactive discard/disruption plan is better than ever.

Could nourish be a burn/combo counter? Kind of on the same plan as retreat just a turn earlier. Good old zuran orb could also work.

[harbingerofthevoid]

Could nourish be a burn/combo counter?

I played around with Pulse of Murasa in my Junk deck online. Had some interesting game swings vs Storm and Burn with it. Costs 1 more than Nourish but it CC is easier with just 1G and getting a land/creature back is a bonus. It could also do double duty vs. Reanimator in response to any of thier reanimation spells.

[tescrin]

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

There is in blue :)
Strix & Shardless Agent recur like a beast.

[lavafrogg]

I played around with Pulse of Murasa in my Junk deck online. Had some interesting game swings vs Storm and Burn with it. Costs 1 more than Nourish but it CC is easier with just 1G and getting a land/creature back is a bonus. It could also do double duty vs. Reanimator in response to any of thier reanimation spells.

Unfortunately I think Pulse costs a little too much to matter against combo, against burn... maybe game one and burn has a lot of problems with any life gain.

@tescrin ??? I think you are referring to building around Glissa's ability. Blue has much better things to be doing than playing a Glissa, also, this is a non blue thread currently talking about a BG deck... I do wish there were colorshifted options like shardless and baleful though.

[tescrin]

@tescrin ??? I think you are referring to building around Glissa's ability. Blue has much better things to be doing than playing a Glissa, also, this is a non blue thread currently talking about a BG deck... I do wish there were colorshifted options like shardless and baleful though.

My point wasn't to build around it; but that it happens to be a card that Shardless sometimes uses; and they use it to much better effect because the already have a bunch of CA artifacts sitting around. You could use Tidehollow or Revoker if you want; I was mostly cracking at the fact that U has the options for that build direction as well. Just funny to me.

[maharis]

If you have problems with big creatures that you can block Narnam Renegade and Gifted Aetherborn are both awesome. You can't beat the discount on these cards compared to Nighthawk/Glissa.

I've been playing Narnam and Renegade Rallier in Zoo -- they are both awesome. I am sure you could do some cool stuff with Rallier in this deck.

Andrea Mengucci has videos with a GSZ build. No SFM -- the white is very light (just STP, GSZ targets and sideboard cards). I haven't watched yet but here's the link:

http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-legacy-abzan/

[damionblackgear]

@CptHaddock - I was the one. Using my own statements against me... (there was no heart eye'd face )
I guess my view of where we needed to attack was different from my earlier statement. It is true that Show and Tell and Elves set a different attack style than storm or burn but, I don't see them as threats. That being said, Neither option is a real solution for either of those combo decks. I'll keep looking while I try Retreat in my build. I do feel attacking their win condition as a "don't lose" strategy could be a better form of attack than actually trying to beat them. In the end though, it is just a different form of defense... and that makes my suggesting them hypocritical .

@lavafrogg - The discard +beats +extraction plans have historically not performed well for us. I'm hoping to find something that we can actually use to be offensive (my style of offense... thanks Cpthaddock). Right now, our Turn 0 is out of our control (unless we can extract their discarded win condition) but our turn 1+ we can interact and that interaction should be meaningful. As for creatures, I find 3cc creatures to be too late and 2/Xs to lack the required muscle to close the game fast enough. Unfortunately, we're forced to sacrifice power for versatility. If we choose power we loose in other places to not being versatile enough. I do agree with you on the "is it worth it" front. I used to count my best strength for beating the Combo decks as being everyone else in the tournament.

On Nourish, I've looked at it a couple of times in the past but never used it. As harbingerofthevoid brought up, the might be difficult. I also think it'd be best vs AnT/TES, where they can't catch up a turn or two later, than Burn. Either way, I'd suggest Feed the Clan over Nourish for the chance at 10 (this should be a win) and 5 life is going to typically be as good as 6 in both cases.

@maharis - I think for your Zoo list both cards offer much more. Deathtouch on a Kird Ape seems amazing, since blockers typically gummed up your front door and having something with card advantage seems like it'd only add to the fun. For most of our lists, the Railler may have a place soon. No-one's really using it right now that I'm aware of. It definitely wouldn't be a bad idea (Goyf, Bob, Library, etc.) to test out later.

As far as this list
(NOTE, I didn't watch the video).

1 x Karakas
1 x Marsh Flats
3 x Windswept Heath
3 x Bayou
3 x Scrubland
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Dark Confidant
1 x Scavenging Ooze
3 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Tireless Tracker

4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Abrupt Decay

4 x Thoughtseize
3 x Green Sun's Zenith
3 x Hymn to Tourach

1 x Sylvan Library

4 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed


Sideboard
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Containment Priest
2 x Choke
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Duress


My Opinion - It looks like a very rough draft made by looking at a suggested list from a primer -ex: Deathrite Shaman (3-4).

The Zenith package is overloaded with Zenith and the accessible toolbox doesn't make a huge impact, the land makeup and cost relations make you exceptionally clunky, and your use of white provides no real reason to use it outside of Swords... which then risks the rest of your plans. On the sideboard it looks like you could be doing better than what's offered without forcing your way into white. It doesn't touch any decks that should be looked into and instead generalizes older issues like it was made using an older primer.

If someone was going to start with this, I'd suggest...

• lowering the number of Zenith and possible replace them with Traverse the Ulvenwald (I've been enjoying it). - Zenith is + to play the target NOW. Traverse is pay to get it, then play it whenever. Differences of what they can get aside, all that's changed between them is the mystery factor. As a Side note, Traverse also lets in the option to use grafdigger's cage to supplement the sideboard (will touch on that later).
• changing the discard package to a more early approach and lower the amount. "Hymn. Hymn. I win" only works if you use speed to win. This list isn't using that. your opponent should have a good 3-5 turns or recovery before they're in danger of losing the game. There is more than enough time to come out of early discard with the current list. Zenith itself is a +1 turn card.
• swapping the removal counts for Swords and Decay. Swords currently hurts your development and leaves you vulnerable to Wasteland. You're already slowing yourself down, why open yourself up to more?
• adding a couple other actual threats (in green if zenith is required). If you can find things to synergize, I'd suggest varied Costs. Presently, 4/75 are actually capable of being threatening on cast (considering threatening to be +3/X). Using Zenith makes them 3@3cmc and 1@4cmc. In total your threats cost... 3@, 4@, 1@. Any way you look at it, you're not doing anything actually threatening until turn 2.
• doing something useful with the sideboard. There are tons of open slots to tinker wit. Some of the graveyard control, for example.
• fixing the manabase. Going into your splash color to kill something shouldn't be game losing. Do this last since your changes may adjust the requirements.

[lavafrogg]

I don't think any of the games were particularly good. I do feel that they showed the problem that I have with the 3 color + wasteland builds and that is they have mana issues. He lost instantly to early blood moons except in the game where he drew both of his basics naturally. He won the game against delver with perfect top decks and trips wasteland, and he lost to the BUG deck with mana issues, especially with the trips hymn and quad Lilliana that he was running.

The games did showcase how strong Liliana is when she is in play which might lead me to playing the full set.

@damion- we have never had a card like Lost Legacy before, being castable on turn 2 can help steal games from dirty combo players... but until we make a discovery/wizards helps us out, combo will be a problem. That being said.. I have won plenty of combo matches in the past with the old seize-hymn-lilly combination. Feed the clan is also a good find with our good friend tarmogoyf.

If I was playing GBw I would be playing GSZ, Stoneforge and Lingering Souls with all of the grindy BUG decks around these days. I am still playing straight BG and have not missed swords to plowshares at all. My current debate is Tracker and Noxious Revival vs Vampire Hexmage and Crop Rotation but neither of those really help with the combo matchup. Hypnotic Specter has been talked about but not tested.

About the deathtouch creatures- I think they only have merit in heavy aggro metagames, which we thrive in anyway. Which leads team death touch to only being needed against Eldrazi, which is soft to Wasteland/Goyf and Lilliana, if Eldrazi is highly played the deathtouch creatures could be good, but some edict effects/dismembers are most likely better.

So far, I have not been convinced that we absolutely have to have the white splash as the best and most convincing reason is access to hatebears, which don't guarantee value against combo decks.

[Megadeus]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

[damionblackgear]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

Re: versatility vs power comment from earlier. You're also using white. lavafrogg is BG.

@lavafrogg, you're right. We haven't had much time with Lost Legacy and it's the first at its cost. I'm hopeful as well.

[lavafrogg]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

In addition to what Damion said, the discussion is life gain against combo and burn. Neither of which are very good match ups and we don't really have a good plan at the moment. Utility across other match ups is good but in this instance what cards do we have to fight combo more efficiently?

[Megadeus]

Life gain against storm isn't very good. You might be able to sneak a win, but it's not good. As for burn, Scooze is solid, finks is good, obstinate baloth is good and can come in against the other BG decks. Could even just run Jitte out of the side. As for combo it depends on the deck you're trying to beat. Could also just play white leylines to answer burn and storm together

[lavafrogg]

BG just doesn't have very many options to fight the non-interactive decks in the format. I could see Dark Ritual into Lost legacy or thoughtsieze-hymn on turn one giving you a chance, but ritual doesn't help in many other match ups. The best option is the turn 2 hypnotic specter play which doesn't seem very good in the grand scheme of things.

Sadistic Sacrament could be worth a look, as 3 cards from a combo deck can be pretty brutal, but Lost Legacy is most likely better.

[Chatto]

T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 Lost Legacy, or T1 Fetch into DRS, T2 Lost Legacy. All other options are weak, and will likely lose you the game, imo. I'm playing three LL in my Nic Fit- sb. I really think it's better than more discard.