Guys,
I've been reading this forum for a while, and have been working on picking up the pieces for lands. I've almost got it all and am starting to do playtesting. Also thinking of trying this deck out in a local league. I would LOVE your feedback on my current list. Some of the things I am most on the fence about having not piloted the deck for very long:
- Can this deck beat miracles without Boseiju main? Considering sidelining it to free up maindeck space.
I cut a Manabond for an extra utility land. Is 5 land cheating effects enough?
I shaved a fetch and a Maze for more utility lands. Seems okay? Is 3 Maze necessary?
Can anyone share their experiences maindecking the following lands: Ghost Quarter, bojuka bog, and tranquil thicket? Seems like they provide excellent utility.
Lands (35)
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Spells (25)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire
Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas
4 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tireless Tracker
1. Yes the deck can definitly beat Miracle without boseiju, but the Boseiju helps a lot to cast spells through an active Counterbalance. Miracle dosent pressure your manabase and is not aggressively attacking you in the early turns, so you should being able to race without boseiju. But if you stand behind an active Counterbalance, this might slow you just enough to let him kill you from a couple of Angels or a bunch of monk tokens really quickly.
[edit] Anyway, Miracle is not an easy MU, they have something like 7 to 8 cards able to kill Marit Lage (Swords to Plowshare and Terminus) plus 2-3 Snapcaster to flashback Swords. Your sideboarding plan against Miracle would typically be to side in Chalice and Krosan to fight they cards selection and Tireless Tracker to draw cards and to have another way to grind the victory.
2. Really this is a personal feeling of how do you like to play a deck. If you are super-excited to play combo very aggressively then play 2 Manabond. If you like to take a bit more time and being less dependant to the "all-in" strategy, then play none. Nothing is wrong, it depend on how you do feel the deck. (I don't run Manabond at all).
3. I would argue that Maze is necessary. In fact I would better say that you need something like a combinaison of more or less 10 creatures hate cards in your deck (Punishing, Explosives, Maze, Tabernacle, etc.). I do play only 2 Maze, but I also play 3 Explosives in addition of the classic 4 Punishing/Vortex package, which helps to keep the control of creatures on the field.
4. Ghost Quarter is an excellent cards but not in the very early turns except against deck that run zero basics (like some Delver, Black combo, Eldrazy, etc). Later in games it become more effectives as opponent usually fetch for basics to counter the wasteland plan. But from my point of view, GQ is a control card, so I would not play it in a very combo oriented deck. GQ really shine in mid-late game where you have time and opportunities to GQ's opponent's basics and Loam it back until you win by concede.
Tranquil Thicket is very effective to save Loam against Surgical, and can provide an actual draw-step if you are Loaming all day long. I even sometimes Gamble for Thicket when I face Miracle because they do play several Surgical post-side.
Bojuka helps also to fight Surgical effect but it's more an insurance against opponent flashback-ing its key spell that kill your victory or to stop a deadly reanimate plan.
This is my feelings about your questions, but I'm not an expert with the deck and other people might also help you !
Last edited by kravkenov; 04-02-2017 at 03:52 PM.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
Hi and welcome!
I agree 100% with @kravkenov: the deck can definetly beat miracles but we are not favored g1 if we don't play boseiju because an early cb along with a well timed terminus/stp can cut us out of the game.
There are 3 miracles builds to consider and the mu's are slightly different.
Legendary miracles is the hardest to beat because of venser and karakas md
Mentor miracles is an even mu that you can handle if they don't have a quick mentor.
Predictable miracles that's the easiest because the have only entreat and jace to kill us but a quick gq's recursion can cut them out of win conditions.
If you play straight rg I definitely recommend you to include boseiju in your md.
Post side things get harder because of surgicals and the need of chalice on 1 harms us as well...that's why I'm quite excited to try the new cycling duals
Do you mind sharing your list?
You play RG or just go to the RUG route? I have an interest in playing Explosives in a RG build but it's very difficult to decide what to cut...
Do you play Academy too? And what do you think Explosives improve and in which MU?
Thanks in advance for your answer!
Here's my short report from yesterday's tournament in my LCGS, where I went 4-0 with some hard matchups. Generally speaking, my meta is quite diversed - miracles, death&taxes, show&tell, bug, ur delver, painter, enchantress, tezzerator, shardless, aluren, junk, elves, merfolks, turbo depths and myself, with RGC lands, to only mention the most popular decks.
Round 1 - UR Delver (2-1)
That's the guy who always gives me a headache while I'm thinking about sideboard before the game. Topdecked PoP in the very last moment is his most beloved weapon of choice, so I'm always hesitating if Zuran Orb wouldn't be a thing against him (but I know it wouldn't with my build, so I'm not using it anyway). We know each other very well, we sit down and shake hands.
G1 - He was on the play, I kept nice hand with Exploration, Mox, Gamble, Thespian and bunch of lands. He burned me fast with Bolts and Swiftspears, but my combo was faster.
G2 - He played around Wasteland, starting with burn and Delver, I tried to establish the board with drawing tools without dredge. I Punished delver, had Thespian, two Groves and probably Taiga on the board. With Glacial in hand, I was thinking about shielding myself from PoP, but I was already at 7 life and I decided that it won't do any good anyway if things will go south. End of my turn - he casts PoP. I respond with turning Thespian into his basic mountain and he cast another PoP with his turn.
G3 - Two Wastelands, Thespian, Loam, Maze, Exploration, Rotation. He Probes me, tries to play around Wastelands with basic Island and Mountain - enough to slow him down anyway. I feel he's salivating to Force my Rotation, so I do not play it, nor do I dredge, so he can't see how close to combo I already am. When I draw Depths and put parts together, he tries to kill me with single strike with two Swiftspears, Pyromancer, 3 tokens and some prowress gimmicks like Bolt - Daze into Bollt - payed with third mana taken into pool from bounced Island - Brainstorm. All in All, Marit and Maze were enough to hold two Swiftspears and that's the game for me.
Round 2 - Aluren (2-0)
G1 - He's looking with big eyes at Mox - Grove - Exploration - Exploration - Thespian - Forest, not knowing what I'm playing. He realises that turn 3, with Marit token and Waste into his Baoyu (I made it my turn in case of his Wasteland and destroyed black mana in case of Liliana).
G2 - He gets Shardless turn 3, hitting Surgical with first shot. He can choose only Bojuka or Rifstone Portal, both dropped with two Moxes. The choice is Bojuka, a very poor one, especially with my Tabernacle and Depths on the board. I kept beating him with Tracker turn 1. Just as I've thought, he sided out all Abrupts. Marit for the win turn 4.
Round 3 - Enchantress (2-1)
G1 - I'm on the play, he's on mulligan to 5. I combo off turn 3.
G2 - We play more carefully, I try to combine control (wasteland + quarter on his enchanted lands, Krosan in hand for Elephan grass or anything crucial) with good mix of dredges and draws, which I manage to do quite good. Turn 5 - Primeval Titan, Turn 6 - Marit. In his turn 6 he starts to storm. When I gave up, he had 48 mana in pool, 35 cards in hand and two Words of Wind in play.
G3 - the reason why I won't cut my Ports ever. I keep hand with Exploration, Mox, Gamble, Gamble, Grove, Port and Taiga. I'm hesitating how to play the Gambles and mana, all in all I end up with two Gambles in hand and nothing else. First one goes for the Chalice, so I can shut him down next turn with Chalice on 2. Chalice goes to grave. Second Gamble goes for Loam. That was a good call. For about 8 turns he can't play anything - I have 3 active Ports for his 3 lands, dredging patientlly for the combo, which comes when he's tapped out.
Round 4 - Junk (2-1)
G1 - He tries to slow me down with discard and Wastelands, but all he can do is to give me two Swords into Marit. He puts Liliana into play, I have Barbarian Ring with trashold and Loam in the grave, I'm not in a hurry, so he surrenders to the recurring combo.
G2 - I kept risky hand with Thricket, Thespian, Exploration, Rotation, Loam, P-Fire and Gamble. He starts with discard, taking out Rotation, waste into my Thricket. I'm watching his two Shamans coming into play with Stoneforge, waiting for at least one Grove, when Liliana arrives I say "enough".
G3 - I get what I need fat, with Gamble, Rotation and Exploration. I put Vortex into play, he answers with Golgari Charm. We play carefully, but he has Goyf, Shaman and Sylvan Library in play. He gets two cards from Library, forgeting to pay for Tabernacle and slams his palm into his forehead. I respond with Krosan into his Library. When I combo off, he has Liliana on the board and 18 life. We know each other very well, so I laugh when he begs me for mercy with big eyes of a puppy and swing Marit into Lily, allowing us to have a little bit more fun. He plays another Liliana, sacking my Marit, I respond with Volcanic Fallout and another Marit from second set of Thespian + Depths.
My list:
Land (36)
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Maze of Ith
1x Petrified Field
1x Riftstone Portal
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Wooded Foothills
Enchantment (6)
4x Exploration
1x Manabond
1x Molten Vortex
Instant (7)
4x Crop Rotation
3x Punishing Fire
Sorcery (8)
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
Artifact (4)
4x Mox Diamond
Sideboard (15)
1x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip
2x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Pithing Needle
1x Primeval Titan
2x Sphere of Resistance
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Volcanic Fallout
Last edited by Wiktul; 04-03-2017 at 10:25 AM.
I play a kind of mixed RG-RUG Lands : Tutor package from RG (which I still need to get used to) and piece of control from RUG (Explosives). Academy and Tolaria are my only blue spells, but the casting cost (transmute cost) is a pain for the manabase. I have made the choice to play Vortex instead of Punishing because of lack of slot for Groves.
Explosives is awesome. Really, just awesome. It deals with almost anything and having a main deck answer to enchantment and artifact game 1, plus being Tutorable and recurable with is a huge good thing. In fact it is the main (only) reason to play Academy and Tolaria.
Explosives helps machups where you have to deals with decks that relies on flooding the field of permanents to win (like Elves, D&T) but also against deck that lock you from they permanents (Miracles, Opposition, Foodchain). It also an answer to Delver deck in a lesser way as you already have several other tools to deal with.
Below is my list. It's still a work in progress and as I don't play as much as I wish, development goes slowly :)
(Cards where I'm still unsure on how much copy to play (zero to four) are marked with *?*)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex ?
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring ?
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tolaria West
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island ?
3 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker ?
4 Molten Vortex // I would like to play a set of Punishing but no slots for Groves
1 Barbarian Ring // Sometimes very good, sometimes useless
3 Tropical Island // it's a bit too much but 3 blue Mana is what I find to be the best configuration to support Tolaria transmute cost. As is, it works, but I'm testing a Volcanic Island instead of Tropical #3 to see how it goes.
2 Phyrexian Revoker // More Chalice or a couple of Thespian/Depth to accelerate natural combo where you face lot of Graveyard hate, or a Chasm and a GQ, or ... i don't know.
Last edited by kravkenov; 04-03-2017 at 08:49 AM.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
You should evaluate how badly you want Tolaria West, because you run 3 TropIsles as well to support it. Is it really worth it without Intuition, because you could easily fit in Groves if you cut the TWests and a Trop (or two), especially as you describe running TWest as a pain for the manabase?
I also think EE's and Vortexes are tied for the same slots, as they both solve problems (EE by blowing it up, Vortex by being alternative removal/wincon), and because EE possibly blows up your own Vortex. EE and PFire seems like a more natural fit as they can coexist more easy.
On the other hand, what I really like about running 4 Vortex, is that it transforms Bog, Karakas, Chasm, or Boseiju into burn, as you'll often won't need their utility. It feels like the perfect excuse to run them all in the main.
Wouldn't the gameplan for each Miracles be the same though: Quarter them out of white sources and Fire/Vortex down their threats? I'm getting into Miracles myself (Predict/Legendary mix) and most of the time that is the best way to end the match. Most Miracles are cutting down the number of white sources which is great and most of the time it's a grind anyway which favours us because we have the LD package.
So would you be adding the new Cycle dual in addition to Thicket or as a replacement, and what would you take out for it? I figured if I included it, I'd move Chasm or Tabernacle to the side since Aggro is on the downswing.
Fun is a zero-sum game in Magic. Therefore, Prison is the best archetype.
I really think you should shave down some duals and fetchs. Even full-on RUG Lands usually only runs two Taiga, two Tropical Island, and between three and four fetchlands. The RUG list I use has four duals and three fetches, so if you did that you'd have an additional three spots available right there, which you could slot in Groves and put back in Punishing Fire (which I think is better with EE, as noted earlier by Ingo).
I don't think it's better than Tranquil Thicket, but it may be good enough as an addition. Also, taking out Tabernacle? Bold move...
I would sooner move Chasm over Tabernacle. Tab works with the mana denial plan, it's basically a one man Rishadan Port. I would want it main always.
@admiral nobeard in my experience our plan against miracles is quite the same but the threats to be aware are quite different and you should play carefully to adapt to their game plan.
I plan to replace my 2 thickets with them and probably I will find a slot for a 3rd. Being fetchable is huge in a mana-hungry deck like lands. I often missed my riftstone portal and even though it's not the same having 3 more targets for my fetches and increase the odds of keepable openers is very good imo
You are right, I was focused on how to feed Vortex with enough red mana without loosing transmute reliability, but playing 3 Groves in the slots of a Tropical Island, a Taiga and a fetch would probably work with 4 Punishing instead of 4 Vortex.
I made the choice of testing Vortex instead of Punishing because it can handle so much very quickly where Punishing need several turns to do the same. It helped a lot against D&T and Elves (which are everywhere in my meta) but also against BUG decks and even Mentor decks. It is also a real alternative 3 turns win-con (18hp are most of the time enough) where Punishing took a lot more time. But sadly it dosent come back from graveyard when you Loam it down.
About Explosives and Vortex, honestly there is t much thing at 1cmc that you absolutely want to handle and can't be done by Vortex. But sure Exploding @1 killing both Exploration and Vortex is a big deal, even if it is not that common to face this situation.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
Hello everyone ,
I'm the Eternal week end champion 2017 , usually i play miracles . But i love lands for long time ago , and i just found a tabernacle for build the deck !
i have lot of questions , the fist one is , anyone have a good sb plans for one stock list ?
thx a lot :)
I know. I've considered it recently since Miracles is becoming the de facto control deck and even new players are picking it up, which increases its popularity even more. Albeit, that's a shitty reason to want to move Tabernacle to the board, but in my meta it's becoming more reasonable.
That all depends on people's board since there's so much variance and toolbox effects to choose from. I run the traditional RG Version and my current board looks like this:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tierless Tracker
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
3x Krosan Grip
For more popular matchups, my boarding is as follows:
Delver variants: -4 Crop Rotation, -2 Gamble, +4 Chalice, +2 Choke
Miracles: -2 Punishing Fire, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Manabond, -1 Crop Rotation +4 Tireless Tracker, +2 Choke, +3 Krosan Grip
Lands: -1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Boseiju, +4 Tireless Tracker, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Karakas
BUG variants: -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Tabernacle, +2 Choke
Reanimator: -1 Boseiju, -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Gamble, -1 Crop Rotation, (-1 more of Gamble and Rotation if UB) +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Karakas, +4 Chalice of the Void (+2 Choke if UB)
Burn: -1 Boseiju, -1 Manabond, -3 Gamble, -1 Crop Rotation, +4 Chalice, +2 Tireless Tracker
Fun is a zero-sum game in Magic. Therefore, Prison is the best archetype.
Félicitations ! Still, remember you won't be allowed to play this huge Taiga you won ;D
Concerning sb plans, it really depends on your land choices in the main and of your meta. Mine is quite combo heavy, so I have 3 sphere of resistance and only one chalice, and I run 4 rishadan + 2 quarters main rather than the new approach with 4 gq.
I globally agree with Admiral Nobeard's choices, except for the lands matchup. I always side out my depths to use the opponent's, and keep the fires to remove his trackers
Adding to the above, I also like bringing in a Krosan Grip or two. Knocking out an opponent's Mox Diamond or Exploration can be pretty backbreaking.
Re: the Miracles SB plan above, I also like bringing in Chalice of the Void, taking out some number of Gamble and Crop Rotation.
I'm sure this card is utterly unplayable due to its cost ... but mid to lategame, wouldn't Splendid Reclamation be ... insane?
The old rug lists used to run 3 trop 3 fetch for sure. Tolaria West EE Ruins used to crush the miracle decks. I feel it's a bit too slow against the delver/pyromancer/girmag decks, especially with the varying CMCs. Delver being flipped and keeping a 1 cmc protects against the clean sweep of tokens and flipped delvers. I remember having to rely on Ensnaring bridge alot in the blue lists when they went that wide, which we can't really play with the combo.
Since I've been dubbed a lands master, I will say that I mostly agree with everything you've said. I haven't had an explosives in my deck for some time, but might play one in Worcester this weekend. I usually only play 3 fire/vortex, especially since adding barb ring back to the deck. As far as the GQ, you are spot on. Only consideration I make between the two though is that if I play chalice over sphere, I play GQ. If I am interested in Resistance or 3Sphere then I most certainly prefer port. At Louisville I played a third taiga over the 4th grove and a vortex over the third PFire, with a second vortex in the board. Honestly I think pfire is better, synergy wise, but the vortex gets you out of prelate/bloodmoon. If food chain becomes more popular now that they have walking balista, I'm really going to want the spheres then.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542332#online
This is the list I played. Played the kreturn as a crutch vs. prelate, but I beat wescoe while it rotted in my hand since the opener. I'll likely cut it, opening up more room in the board. Having the extra taiga was nice to bump up my fetchable count. I usually play the canopy over the 4th fetch and still run out of fetchables so it was good, also not having to give life away to vortex is great. My spicy one of is ancient tomb. I've been trying to sell it to Jarvis and everyone else as a worthy land in the md. I like it over portal(which most ppl cut for boseiju). I've played boseiju in the past in the sb, but only along side boil and sphere to make your gambles uncounterable to get the boil with a sphere out. I tried out the chalice tracker plan vs. miracles and it was good, but they are getting smarter and playing EE. Might have to adapt.
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