Life from the Loam mills my GSZ targets, I don't want my threats in the graveyard.Originally Posted by ShadWills
Yeah, but opponents don't always have creatures... Good luck trying to block a flipped Delver with Veteran too. I guess I'll have to keep track of the amount of times I'm in need for it or just test it out when the cards come out.
My 75 at SCG Worchester-
17 Creatures:
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Eternal Witness
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer
1 Planeswalker:
1x Garruk, Relentless
20 Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile
1x Abzan Charm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
22 Lands:
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Windswept Heath
15 Sideboard:
3x Thoughtseize
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Golgari Charm
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Choke
1x Toxic Deluge
It was my first large event, but I ended up going 6-3 after losing my win and in against Infect in 3 games.
Round 1 vs Miracles: Played 1 threat after another after blind naming Top with Therapy on the play game 1. Ended up stripping his hand and hitting him with Sigarda a lot. Game 2 was much more grindy after he resolved t4 Jace, but a t5 Choke locked him out of three lands. I dig for a threat while he digs for lands. I end up resolving a Sigarda to take out his Jace, but he miracles Entreat for 3 and hits me down to 2. I spin Top into Deed and blow up his board. 2-0 Win, 1-0 Record
Round 2 vs DnT: This was the backup feature match and I let my nerves get the better of me. End up grabbing 7 on my mull to 6 in game 1 and mull down to 5. Then I mull down to 5 in g2 and never find a Deed/Toxic D. Not a great match. 0-2 Loss, 1-1 Record
Round 3 vs Eldrazi: I end up stripping 2 Warping Wails from his hand in game 1 and beat him down with a Thragtusk and a Rhino after Pathing most of his threats. In game 2, he ended up getting me low with a smasher, then resolving a Winter Orb to lock me out of untapping and finished the game with a large Endless One. In Game 3, we we're both low on action after I Therapy away his threats. He ends up resolving an Endbringer with a Winter Orb out, but Garruk Relentless eventually took it out after he blocked a Wolf Token. It then took 5 turns of uptapping lands to play a deed and eventually blow up his Winter Orb. After I untap with 7 lands, flip my Nissa by fetching in response to his Dismember, and playing a Thragtusk, I end up grinding him out. 2-1 Win, 2-1 Record
Round 4 vs Dredge: In game 1, he ends up with about 25 power on board on turn 3, oh well. Game 2 involved an insane amount of flood from me after he gets off to a slow start. I saw a Veteran Explorer, a Toxic Deluge and 10 lands in my Top 12 cards. End up getting hit by Dragonlord Kolaghan for lethal. 0-2 Loss, 2-2 Record
Round 5 vs Bug Delver: Game 1, early Therapy combined with early Rhinos lead to an early victory. Rhinos don't care about Leovold. Game 2, he ends up hitting me with early discard and eventually resolve a True-Name that I can't deal with. I end up praying for a Deed or a Deluge in my Top spin, but end up finding three lands. Game 3 was a much harder grind fest. We trade resources back and forth until we're both empty handed, but he has a Flipped Delver vs a Choke and Divining Top. Delver ends up hitting me down to 5, but I draw E-Wit into Path to deal with it. He fatal pushes my E-Wit end of turn, but untaps with only a Bayou. I end up finding a GSZ to tutor Thrun, which carried me to victory in 2 turns. 2-1 Victory, 3-2 Record
Round 6 vs Shardless Bug: We both end up stripping each others hands in game 1, but eventually he cascades his Agent into a 6/7 Goyf. Turns out 6/7 is larger than a Siege Rhino for some ungodly reason. Game 2 involved playing a much more fair game, but I did manage to out draw them to get ahead on raw card count via Tireless Tracker, Abzan Charm, and E-Wit, end up hitting him with Sigarda. Game 3 was Jace vs Choke+Top. He was locked out of 4/8 lands, but happened to have 4 DRS vs me. He misplays and ends up Animating his Creeping Tarpit into my Pernicious Deed which proceeds to 5 for 1 him. My Sigarda wipes his Jace out, but he slams Goyf. Lotv can't stop this Jace-Slaughtering, hexproof, flying Angel from slamming into his face after I Path his Goyf. 2-1 Victory, 4-2 Record
Round 7 vs 4c Control. I drew three Deeds and 2 Rhinos vs his True-Name Nemesis. His Abrupt Decays take care of the first two Deeds, but the third Deed ends up staying. Turns out, I can race TNN with Rhino and I end up never popping Deed. Game 2 involved an equipped Jitte on a TNN and a t3 JTMS. Can't beat that fast of a start. Game 3 turned into another grind fest, but I end up getting the Twin Towers online. I end up drawing close to 4 cards off of Tracker. Last turn of the game and he was at 2 health after forcing my first Rhino. I end up casting E-Wit, sacing E-Wit to Phyrexian Tower for just enough mana to recast Rhino. 2-1 Victory, 5-2 Record
Round 8 vs Burn. T3 Dragonlord Dromoka game 1. Lose game 2 to 2x Swiftspear after I kept a one lander. T2 Siege Rhino into t3 Siege Rhino, into t4 Thragtusk in game 3. End up with 30 minutes left in the round and I end up finding some over priced hot dog to eat before my final game. Four dollars for a hot dog is too much. For real. 2-1 Victory, 6-2 Record
Round 9 vs Infect. He mulls to 5 after I hard misplay and not GSZ for E-Wit to grab Path to Exile, top decks Beserk to kill me. T2, I GSZ for Melira early and hit him with Rhinos. Note, you never attack with Melira, never. Game 3 I end up needing a third land to GSZ for Melira. I end up finding Top and finding 2 lands in the Top spin. He then lethals me with Invigorate.
End up around 100th place after missing Day 2.
Thoughts on the day:
+More Deathrite Shamans in the 75 against any control deck where Vet package comes out.
+Garruk being a 4 mana sorcery speed bolt vs creatures was decent. Gotta kill Delver somehow.
+Abzan Charm is insanely flexible. being able to exile large creatures, while also drawing cards felt so good.
+Flip Nissa is essentially a 2 for 1, and I don't mind it taking the slot of Meren.
+The Twin Towers package is disgusting, keep running it.
+Choke was insane against most of the format, it's the enchantment that keeps on giving.
-Dragonlord Dromoka was underwhelming, might replace with Prime Time.
-I never got to side in C-Priest, might just switch it out for a Teeg.
-I never got to cast Apex Predator against anyone.
I think that Tsunami might be a replacement for Choke, while I need to dig up my Carpet of Flowers. Tireless Tracker might be 2-of due to how great that card is at grinding out wins.
New Nissa might be a choice to replace Garruk as a way to get CA while also being able to kill JTMS. However, my opponents can draw a ton of cards against me, but they still need a way to deal with 4 Rhinos.
Overall I thought that 6-3 finish was pretty good for my first Comp-Rel tournament. Feel free to point out any cards you don't think/you really like about the list.
So... Yeah I haven't been running Tireless Tracker in my particular lists but I have playtested with him a bit and he seems made for this deck. It feels a little like Wizards wants to give us the three drop not the two.
I am in love with carpet of flowers if there is- like, any blue in the meta.
Also I'm lovin Toxic Deluge but I'm also liking 4 Pernicious Deed, so...
Especially about your comment on round 5: I have found 4 Green Sun's Zenith and 3 Veteran Explorer a good base for the main. But I still see a lot of people running 4 Vet. Also discard has felt really weak lately in general.
I know discard is like our "out" to combo decks, but it seems kinda weak everywhere else. And combo decks are our weakness(ish). And I wonder if- I dunno- if extraction is better ther and if (this is just freestyling) we should extract combo and (consider) drop(ing) discard in other places. I'm aware that we use cabal therapy as counterspell hate but I'm personally on the "play through Force" tip.
Last edited by ShadWills; 04-10-2017 at 12:53 AM.
I respect your opinion and I will try to never be disparaging unless the humor is obvious. Anyway, ever heard of Orcish Librarian? It took me a long time to see that Librarian is actually awesome and has a very small drawback. Also Two Towers likes threats in the grave right?
I feel like if you need more sac outlets for Vet then Innocent Blood and Diabolic Intent are really good. I understand that it's not the same as tutoring your sac outlet but the effect is often powerful enough to justify- uh, non-tutorability.
Last edited by ShadWills; 04-10-2017 at 05:50 PM.
[AKH] Vizier of the Menagerie 3G
Creature-Naga Cleric
You may look at the top card of your library.
You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card.
You may spend mana as though it was mana of any color to cast creature spells.
3/4
http://imgur.com/pDkOnGg
Possibly good enough?
Luckily Delver is one of our best MUs. And if you have to GSZ (through Daze for sure vs. Delver) for a 2 mana card you're already at 4 mana by the time you can pull it off. By that time you're good to go and don't need to kill your Explorer anymore.
Edit: If you want a 2 CMC card to get rid of Veteran Explorer, try Diabolic Intent. Doesn't need to resolve to kill Explorer, is a (free) Demonic Tutor when it does resolve.
@ShadWills: Your posts have an edit-button
Take out the "possibly". OMFG. Along a package of Top, Library, Courser and Tracker that thing is perfect. Holy fucking shit. It has CMC > 3, toughness > 3, it's not legendary. Damn!
Last edited by Echelon; 04-10-2017 at 05:18 AM.
It might take the slot of Meren/Nissa Vastwood Seer. The only problem I see with it, it that it doesn't provide any value when it immediately hits/hits your end step, unless you have 7+ mana and a creature on top. It does have inherent synergy with the amount of shuffle effects that we have tho. Also naga cleric.
Sure, sure. But if your opponent doesn't answer it, they're going to fall behind. Hard. And very quickly.
And yes, naga cleric. It's officially a thing now. The art would have been better if he was petting a rhino though...
Last edited by Echelon; 04-10-2017 at 04:57 AM.
So I guess I'm the only one not super excited for this card? Our creature count feels like its too low to really abuse this card. Sure there's filtering, but eh. I can't imagine it being better than Nissa, maybe it's better than Meren but Meren seems nice recurring effects that we only have one ofs.
I run 19 creatures in my build so no, I don't think my creature count is too low. Especially given the amount of library manipulation I run (3 Top, 1 Library, 1 Courser for the top cards alone. Then add in 10 fetchlands, 4 GSZ and 4 Veteran Explorer to shuffle the top and Tireless Tracker to skim some more cards).
Is it for all builds? No. Can it be a nice tool for some? Yes. Worst case scenario, it's an overexpensive Courser that tells me not to crack a fetch b/c there's something important on top.
Edit: Just realised it plays incredibly well w/ Volrath's Stronghold. Maybe I'll finally have to get one. Dammit.
Yes, I know of the card. But taking threats out of your deck so that you can't GSZ for them hurts a lot. And assembling two towers (or in this case really only Stronghold) still requires getting both a loam and a stronghold. Then it involves spending a whole bunch of mana setting things up.
BUG variants have some really smooth Loam options. Once you include a few Intuition then you only need 1 Loam, and Intuition means you can grab everything you need - Stronghold/Loam/choice of fatty for instance. Small price to pay to ensure that you win any grindy game.
I don't really like the Naga guy. Feels like Courser to me. Is there really that much difference in virtual hand size when you can play a land from the top of your deck versus playing a creature from the top of your deck? Maybe if you just have a stupid high creature count and can chain them together. Typical lists are going to struggle to do that.
Feeling like Courser isn't a bad thing, I run around 17 creatures. Technically that would be a 17/61 chance of hitting an extra card, but with Top and shuffle effects that chance can usually double. From experience Courser which is 22/61 lands has about an 80% hit rate with SDT. I'll check the exact math on this one later when I have some time at lunch.
The CA is definitely there, and the body is a good enough size.
The only question I have left, is if it's fast enough. You're probably not getting another creature with it on the turn it comes down. So while it represents a 2:1 or even more (especially if you chain creatures on top), it takes a full turn to have any payoff. In contrast, Meren represents an additional card simply by passing the turn.
It's not a strict upgrade or anything, but I do think it's very playable.
If I am playing GSZ, x = 4, with a passing of the turn before effect, I really like Master of the Wild Hunt. Bolts aside, this guy does work. I could see the naga being sweet when you have 4 Rhinos in the deck though.
I can see Bolt being better than Push, but do you consider Bolt to be better than the Punishing Fire package?
Rhinos require white though. With this, you could be in BUG, Jund, or even straight GB.
On one side, the casting a creature card is similar to Domri's +1, but what makes Domri not work, is that you're paying for a PW that doesn't do anything for board presence when it misses. This card is still a 3/4 so even when you're not getting a hit you're still getting a board out of it. On the other side, I did some quick probability counts in a spreadsheet and it's not very impressive.
Here's your chance of hitting.
http://imgur.com/a/cUpRd
The axis are number of cards drawn on horizontal, and number of tops in deck vertical. The numbers in the cells are the average between having and not having tops. Numbers are calculated from these base tables.
http://imgur.com/a/1P1s5
So the main takeaway. You can count on this card being worth .6 cards/turn in the lategame and .5 cards/turn early with 4 tops and 20 creatures in the deck. In practice fetches/clue tokens can increase this slightly, but those aren't accounted for.
In a deck like what I play it would be worth about .45 cards/turn. That's making me reevaluate things a bit, I think a 4 drop needs to provide a minimum of 1 card/turn.
I think when the defacto Jund Fit is Sneak, bolt is often going to serve the deck's interest better, as it can clear early pressure, but also can close the last few points if necessary. PFire is at its best when paired with Lili and/or Loam as seen in actual Jund, Aggro Loam, or Lands. Not that Punishing Fit lists are invalid, but Deed seems better to me at clearing multiple little guys, while you can use 2 Towers to grind better/faster than PFire. PFire also makes the manabase marginally more inflexible since you end up dedicating more slots to G/R-producing lands and the black mana suffers, whereas Bolt can be supported off of basics, taigas, and badlands minimally.
Yeah, basically this. Check out both my own as well as Arianrhod's previous posts concerning Bolt vs PFire if you want more in-depth reasoning. Probably need to take into account amount of Wastelands, Leovold, critter decks like Elves/DnT in your meta when you are deciding which package to use.
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