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Thread: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

  1. #81
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Vergine is an insult and a mistake for Survival of the Fittest.
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Dies to Goyf, why aren't you running a castable threat (Goyf) instead. Both are yard based, but Goyf doesn't require comboing off - Goyf is a 1 card combo. The issue then with being a dedicated Goyf deck is that it's probably worse than Shardless or BUG Delver (also a SotF deck is more likely to draw yard hate).
    Really!?
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @Stevestamopz I doubt a Survival deck is going to be run without 4x DRS of its own on top of 4x Survival, 4x Decay, and 4x Rootwalla (dicarded unto exile, not the yard). How exactly is enemy DRS going to stop you? If you're rounding out that deck, you'll probably want 4-6 slots of discard, and 1-2 Collective Brutality isn't antithetical to your strategy while also killing DRS. Additional non-creature spells could easily be an amount of Noxious Revival for redundancy, anti-yard combo, and screwing up enemy DRS further. Continuing down such a path you're looking at whatever creature soup you want for combo and blue decks, but need to answer the 'dies to goyf' fair question. Easiest way to answer Goyf issue is running your own, but a playset isn't really where you want to be....so with the tutoring let's say that 1x Goyf is a nice hedge. Second most common way to answer Goyf is equipment, so again with the tutoring, let's say that 1x SFM + Bskull & Jitte. Sure a removal spell stops a Goyf, but you're looking more for creature-based answers like deathtouch mechanic or flashy stuff like Vengeful Pharaoh (engine card) or Shriekmaw.

    You can take Survival a number of color directions, but no matter what, you're never beating Counterbalance without Decay. You should stay away from BUG (despite the BG core) b/c you're making a crappy Aluren deck (crappy b/c it doesn't use Aluren). You can go heavy on yard-centric combo focus with stuff like Vengevine, but this is the most hated zone and heavy yard use should probably just make a Griselbrand or be some overly elaborate Welder shenanigans. Tutoring out uninteractive wins with [insert white hatebear] probably makes the most sense. Jund colors don't seem productive.

    Abzan core trying to be different from, and more competitive than, Vet/Therapy core decks (NicFit). Looking to cheese out wins I'd go with a deck like:
    4x Decay
    4x SotF
    4x Thoughtsieze
    2x Coll. Brutality
    2x Noxious Revival
    1x Batterskull
    1x Jitte (18)

    4x DRS
    4x Basking Rootwalla
    1x SFM
    3x Thalia
    1x Goyf
    1x Ethersworn
    1x Vengeful Pharaoh
    1x Squee, Goblin Nabob (we're never casting this) or Grave Scrabbler
    1x Big Game Hunter
    1x Teeg
    1x Scavenging Ooze
    1x Rec. Sage
    1x Meren or Eternal Witness
    1x Shriekmaw (22)

    20 lands? Probably no Cradle. Perhaps 7 dual lands (4x Bayou, 2x Savannah, 1x Scrubland), 8 Fetches, Karakas, a basic Forest, and 3 more lands of some sort...Let's just call it fetches 9&10 and a Volrath's Stronghold.

    SB to include the obligatory 3x Surgical, 4th Thalia, maybe some StP, 3 slots of discard, another flex equip, Containment Priest, Kataki seems fine, and whatever else you want. Lilly, Last hope also seems fine in a deck like this.
    This is the deck that shows survival is OP?
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  4. #84

    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.

  5. #85

    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Mulligan.

    Uh ... keep?


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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Mulligan.

    Uh ... keep?

    I know you're just making a joke but if you draw a SotF next you're in value town by turn 3. I can't think of any deck that can beat 2 Rootwallas and a Vengevine on turn 3. SotF is a menace.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Mulligan.

    Uh ... keep?

    Oh my god i laughed way too hard at this, i really shouldn't have.

    But yeah survival decks are pretty clunky. It's hard to make a list that don't feel very much so.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    This is the deck that shows survival is OP?
    I am not an expert on how to build the ideal [not DnT] hatebear deck, nor have I ever claimed SotF is overpowered. My issue with unban is that it is an absolute diversity killer with 16 fixed slots (DRS, Decay, SotF, Rootwalla) further reducing diversity within its own archetype. The point I am trying to illustrate is that Survival will necessarily be in Abzan colors and has the potential to invalidate playing NicFit, Maverick, Dead Guy Ale, Punishing non-blue Blade, Zombardment, and more fringe decks in/around those colors.

    Vengevine + Cradle approach is likely too slow, clunky, and likely to lose in a fair m/u. You're already using fairly sub-par creatures and a yard dependent Vengevine zerg-rush isn't a great way forward.

  9. #89
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Can you remind me why rootwalla is considered a 4-off? The card is completely pointless without Survival. If I would build a Survival deck, I would stick the card into Elves first.
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Can you remind me why rootwalla is considered a 4-off? The card is completely pointless without Survival. If I would build a Survival deck, I would stick the card into Elves first.
    Other enablers exist, in the case of the list I put forth it is Coll. Brutality. The list invests slots into value engine (Rootwalla, Pharaoh, Squee, BGH) around Survival. The deck can also play up to 8 copies of Survival if it needed E. Tutors; the list is a very rough draft. Turn one play density is important, and even though Rootwalla hardcast is anemic, it still a plan that hedges versus edict effects. So if we're looking for engine, this is a piece that has backup application.

    SotF as a [mostly] one color tribal enabler is viable, and such decks are not listed in the invalidated by SotF section. Those tribal decks, even with Survival, do not offer a potentially more competitive deck in the Abzan colors which would dis-incentivize a non-SotF deck.

  11. #91
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Can you remind me why rootwalla is considered a 4-off? The card is completely pointless without Survival. If I would build a Survival deck, I would stick the card into Elves first.
    Something like this seems pretty legit
    Creatures (30)
    2 Dryad Arbor
    2 Birchlore Rangers
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Fyndhorn Elves
    3 Heritage Druid
    3 Nettle Sentinel
    3 Quirion Ranger
    4 Wirewood Symbiote
    4 Elvish Visionary
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Reclamation Sage
    2 Craterhoof Behemoth
    Spells (12)
    4 Glimpse of Nature
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Survival of the Fittest
    Lands (18)
    2 Bayou
    2 Cavern of Souls
    2 Forest
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    Sideboard (15)
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Abrupt Decay
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod
    75 Cards Total
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I am not an expert on how to build the ideal [not DnT] hatebear deck, nor have I ever claimed SotF is overpowered. My issue with unban is that it is an absolute diversity killer with 16 fixed slots (DRS, Decay, SotF, Rootwalla) further reducing diversity within its own archetype. The point I am trying to illustrate is that Survival will necessarily be in Abzan colors and has the potential to invalidate playing NicFit, Maverick, Dead Guy Ale, Punishing non-blue Blade, Zombardment, and more fringe decks in/around those colors.

    Vengevine + Cradle approach is likely too slow, clunky, and likely to lose in a fair m/u. You're already using fairly sub-par creatures and a yard dependent Vengevine zerg-rush isn't a great way forward.
    At this point who cares? Delver has pushed out any aggro deck besides Eldrazi, miracles has done the same with control decks. It's not even an argument anymore that decks get pushed out for diversity reasons
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  13. #93
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    I just realized that Greenbelt Rampager would be another enabler for silly LED shenanigans involving Vengevine T1.

    T1: Land, LED, cast Rampager, trigger goes on the stack, sac LED for mana, dump Vengevines into the yard, use LED mana to recast Rampager until it sticks, swing with Vengevines.

    This would complement the Rootwallas as enabler. Reckless Wurm/Arrogant Wurm would be another outlet for the LED mana. If you can hit a Taiga and discard Anger, you could get super aggressive starts. Stuff like Faithless Looting (and probably even Smuggler's Copter) could help with consistency.

    You would still be a dog to fast combo and Miracles, but oh well.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I just realized that Greenbelt Rampager would be another enabler for silly LED shenanigans involving Vengevine T1.

    T1: Land, LED, cast Rampager, trigger goes on the stack, sac LED for mana, dump Vengevines into the yard, use LED mana to recast Rampager until it sticks, swing with Vengevines.

    This would complement the Rootwallas as enabler. Reckless Wurm/Arrogant Wurm would be another outlet for the LED mana. If you can hit a Taiga and discard Anger, you could get super aggressive starts. Stuff like Faithless Looting (and probably even Smuggler's Copter) could help with consistency.

    You would still be a dog to fast combo and Miracles, but oh well.
    This theoretical deck sounds fucking awful. But I'd play it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    This theoretical deck sounds fucking awful. But I'd play it.
    Yes please. I'm not afraid to admit that LED into Arrogant Wurm tickles my pickle.
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I know you're just making a joke but if you draw a SotF next you're in value town by turn 3. I can't think of any deck that can beat 2 Rootwallas and a Vengevine on turn 3. SotF is a menace.
    Honestly can't tell if sarcasm or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Honestly can't tell if sarcasm or not.
    It was. The thing that's funny is throughout this entire thread I haven't found a single deck that's even playable (in the sense that you want to win a tournament), much less broken. Unbanning it would definitely make me want to play Legacy again, but I hope they don't because it already costs so much and I don't have them anymore.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    Yes please. I'm not afraid to admit that LED into Arrogant Wurm tickles my pickle.
    As someone who tried to make Madness work with Cruise and Dig, Tarmogoyf takes a giant shit on that approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Honestly can't tell if sarcasm or not.
    It has to be. That hand has to peel, in order, mana dork, Survival to make a turn 3 Vengevine, assuming it wants to take game actions that aren't tapping out for Survival on turn 2. Not something to worry about.

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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    I played vines last week and had a solid hand and realized that if my opponent ever casts a goyf with a deathrite on board my cards don't do anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  20. #100
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    Re: [SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

    I think in order to break Survival, first we need to figure out what Niche a survival deck would occupy. Graveyard-combo is already a thing in Dredge and various Storm decks, and Graveyard-attrition sounds very much like any BG/x midgrange currently available (could be wrong though).

    Maybe base it off of Modern Abzan Company (as in part midrange, part combo)? Even then it compares poorly to Food Chain combo ... wait, has anyone suggested running this in Food Chain combo? Seems like a great way to get and/or pitch Emrakul 1.0

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