View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #14221

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    The format is in an awesome spot. With every deck being Miracles, Eldrazi or Grixis Tempo. Ocasionally some Show and Tell and Storm. GREAT DIVERSITY.
    You've got a tempo deck, a control deck, a combo deck, and an aggro deck in that list. What better can you ask for?

  2. #14222
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    You've got a tempo deck, a control deck, a combo deck, and an aggro deck in that list. What better can you ask for?
    Multiple tempo decks, control decks, combo decks and aggro decks.
    Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

  3. #14223

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    Multiple tempo decks, control decks, combo decks and aggro decks.
    Merfolk and Delver are your tempo decks, Miracles and Lands are your control decks, Storm and Show and Tell are your combo decks, Burn and Eldrazi are your aggro decks, and Shardless BUG and Jund are your midrange decks.
    Happy Now?

  4. #14224
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Literally everything else is a massive, mismanaged pile of clusterfucks that makes you wonder how they're still in business after all these years, let alone grow the game.
    The people running the company now are not the people who were running it when the game started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Because the game is pure crack.
    That helps as well... Plus while MtG is not the best game, or even the best run game, it is the first majorly successful one, and that helps as most games end up failing due to not achieving a critical # of players which MtG achieved years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    If 50+% of people vote a deck to be banned because of its power level, it probably is too powerful.
    Not even close to true. The majority of the player base has demonstrated time and again that they understand nothing about power level. plus this often ends up being more skill vs luck, as decks that reward player skill often get pegged as more powerful when in the hands of more competent players.
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    Yes, there will be some people who have a deck that has a bad matchup against a certain deck and vote for that deck to be banned, but we are talking 50+% here...
    Yes, because for the umpteenth time this selection would not be logical but emotional, and all it takes for someone to form an emotional dislike for a card that their deck is weak against is for them to play against it semi-regularly. When you add in that most of the player base (remember for this system you are proposing the voting would not be dominated by the competitive players who are a minority but the casuals who are a vast majority) are actually playing bad decks, this ends up being that they lose to most of the top decks. and they vote to ban the cards that the top decks use.
    I can all but guarantee that if this was implemented BS, FoW, Tendrils, SnT, Terminus, Counterbalance, etc would all be banned quickly because the majority of the player base has negative emotional connections to those cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    there will also be people who think a deck is boring to play against and if 50+% think so, then it is probably pretty freaking boring to play against and deserves to be banned for the greater good.
    Allot of the time when someone complains a deck it boring to play against it is not the deck that is boring to play against, it is the player not knowing how to change their game to play against that deck.
    Some of the best games I ever played, and most satisfying victories were against decks that the majority would consider boring, partly because I was able to adapt my strategy to face that deck, and it actually ended up being an interactive match.
    There is also the fact that there is a large segment of the player base who basically only play cards on their turn and have little to no attention, this causes ANY deck that takes turns that take more then 2-3 mins to be labeled as slow and boring, which under you desired view would cause any deck that requires you to think or even practice with it get banned bacause it takes to much time.

    There is one player in my local community who I have heard several times complain about how deck X is a problem because it takes to long, and almost every time it was really that deck being played by people who do not know how to play it that was the problem. One of the decks he complained about taking forever to win was UR modern storm, which on MODO I have timed myself in single player mode and most games and I can normally goldfish the entire game (not just the storm turn) in in 5-6 min, including all the delays from stacking triggers. Oh and I have a bad internet connection that slows me down as well.

    though the blatantly problem with letting cards be banned due to people finding them boring to play against is that for the majority of players that list includes basically every combo and control deck, so if you ban based on this criteria you end up with those 2 categories of play disappearing from the game, but they are NEEDED for a healthy and diverse metagame which is the biggest advantage Legacy has over Standard and Modern.

    As well allot of the cards that would be banned for "being boring to play against" actually serve a purpose in the health of metagame keeping other strategies and combos in check, so once they have been banned the resulting metagame ends up with more broken decks emerging that then have to be banned for the health of the game. leading to the B&R lists going from a minimal curated list we have now to a bloated slapped together mess like in Yu-Gi-Oh.

    It would end up being that whenever a vote was set, whatever deck is currently winning the most is likely going to get a card banned, and nothing ever coming off the list.
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    I really don't get why this concept is so hard to understand for you guys.
    WE DO UNDERSTAND IT, YOU ARE JUST OBVIOUSLY WRONG FOR REASONS THAT HAVE PROBABLY BEEN MENTIONED AD NAUSEAM BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING

  5. #14225

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    The people running the company now are not the people who were running it when the game started.


    That helps as well... Plus while MtG is not the best game, or even the best run game, it is the first majorly successful one, and that helps as most games end up failing due to not achieving a critical # of players which MtG achieved years ago.
    Not even close to true. The majority of the player base has demonstrated time and again that they understand nothing about power level. plus this often ends up being more skill vs luck, as decks that reward player skill often get pegged as more powerful when in the hands of more competent players.
    Yes, because for the umpteenth time this selection would not be logical but emotional, and all it takes for someone to form an emotional dislike for a card that their deck is weak against is for them to play against it semi-regularly. When you add in that most of the player base (remember for this system you are proposing the voting would not be dominated by the competitive players who are a minority but the casuals who are a vast majority) are actually playing bad decks, this ends up being that they lose to most of the top decks. and they vote to ban the cards that the top decks use.
    Yes, 50+% of legacy players are going to be like oh Miracles and Shardless BUG are better than my deck, so lets ban Shardless Agent and Sensei's Divining Top... No...
    I can all but guarantee that if this was implemented BS, FoW, Tendrils, SnT, Terminus, Counterbalance, etc would all be banned quickly because the majority of the player base has negative emotional connections to those cards.
    If the majority don't like playing against a card enough to vote it out of the format, then it is for the greater good that that card is banned.
    Allot of the time when someone complains a deck it boring to play against it is not the deck that is boring to play against, it is the player not knowing how to change their game to play against that deck.
    Some of the best games I ever played, and most satisfying victories were against decks that the majority would consider boring, partly because I was able to adapt my strategy to face that deck, and it actually ended up being an interactive match.
    There is also the fact that there is a large segment of the player base who basically only play cards on their turn and have little to no attention, this causes ANY deck that takes turns that take more then 2-3 mins to be labeled as slow and boring, which under you desired view would cause any deck that requires you to think or even practice with it get banned bacause it takes to much time.
    And I say Again, If the majority don't like playing against a card enough to vote it out of the format, then it is for the greater good that that card is banned.
    There is one player in my local community who I have heard several times complain about how deck X is a problem because it takes too long, and almost every time it was really that deck being played by people who do not know how to play it that was the problem. One of the decks he complained about taking forever to win was UR modern storm, which on MODO I have timed myself in single player mode and most games and I can normally goldfish the entire game (not just the storm turn) in in 5-6 min, including all the delays from stacking triggers. Oh and I have a bad internet connection that slows me down as well.
    If the majority of players have this deck which whenever they play it takes too long and they decide to ban it, it is for the greater good that that deck is banned

    though the blatantly problem with letting cards be banned due to people finding them boring to play against is that for the majority of players that list includes basically every combo and control deck, so if you ban based on this criteria you end up with those 2 categories of play disappearing from the game, but they are NEEDED for a healthy and diverse metagame which is the biggest advantage Legacy has over Standard and Modern.

    As well allot of the cards that would be banned for "being boring to play against" actually serve a purpose in the health of metagame keeping other strategies and combos in check, so once they have been banned the resulting metagame ends up with more broken decks emerging that then have to be banned for the health of the game. leading to the B&R lists going from a minimal curated list we have now to a bloated slapped together mess like in Yu-Gi-Oh.

    It would end up being that whenever a vote was set, whatever deck is currently winning the most is likely going to get a card banned, and nothing ever coming off the list.
    If you think the majority of voters would be that stupid, I don't know what to tell you but that if it happens and the voters don't realize the problem in their reasoning, WotC can and will be able to take over.
    WE DO UNDERSTAND IT, YOU ARE JUST OBVIOUSLY WRONG FOR REASONS THAT HAVE PROBABLY BEEN MENTIONED AD NAUSEAM BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING

  6. #14226
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I do love when this thread becomes emotionally charged. Everyone's emotions get pent up, sitting across from whatever they perceive to be egregiously lame cards (like DRS and TNN are for me are) and then after a month of it they just come on to this board and REEEEEEEEEEE all over it. This board is more of a place to vent then it is about actual B/R Spec, probably 80% of the time.

    As for banning DRS it's not the stupidest idea I've ever heard, it is horrifically overpowered for the cost of
    It's also the most played creature in Legacy (and for good reason) which doesn't mean anything on it's own, but rather just speaks to it's raw power levels.

    As for the format, yeah sure there's a tempo/control/combo/aggro deck, but I wouldn't hate for the format to be opened up and have the sides "filled in," i.e. allow multiple other decks to be competitively viable. How do we do this? Unbanning.

    Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter and Survival are all candidates for creating/rejuvenating their own archetypes. Enchantress and Goblins being a thing? Hell yeah! Mind Twist doing nothing? Cool, why not. Survival being a thing again? Sweet, let's play something new and interesting.
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  7. #14227
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    nonsense
    Your main argument seems to ignore the fact that the majority of people are stupid. If that is indeed what you're saying then you clearly do speak for the majority.
    For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    The format is in an awesome spot. With every deck being Miracles, Eldrazi or Grixis Tempo. Ocasionally some Show and Tell and Storm. GREAT DIVERSITY.
    Need to play more Nic Fit. #Rhinotime.

  9. #14229
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    If 50+% of people vote a deck to be banned because of its power level, it probably is too powerful.
    When I started playing Legacy I played Goblins. Solidarity was a bitch but it was a cornerstone of the format. What if I had of been able to vote High Tide out of the format and completely upset the balance? I was new, I did not understand the importance of this other deck, I just hated that it beat me and I felt like I never had a chance. It did not help that my list was underpowered because I was a teen with no money.

    What happens when cards start getting voted out by people who do not understand their importance? What happens when people start voting out cards they can not afford? What happens when people start voting for an ideal and not for reality, attacking cards because they do not fit in their play style? I am willing to bet more than 50% of the player base only has one or two decks. What happens when they get their deck voted out or they vote out the deck that they are weak to?

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    I really dont get why this concept is so hard to understand for you guys.
    We understand, we do not agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    There is NOTHING that needs to be banned in legacy right now... Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis? Are you kidding me?
    The format is in a pretty good spot right now. There is no reason to make people mad by banning Show and Tell and Brainstorm...
    These are the consequences of what your suggesting.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
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  10. #14230

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The format is in a pretty good spot, I think. I like it at least. I'd like to get the chaff off the list and of course I'd still like some of the more interesting and less egregiously broken cards off too e.g. Recruiter, Survival, etc. I won't hold my breath.
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  11. #14231
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Its pretty entertaining to see how the year-long Legacy Standard of Fetchlands + Cantrips is under pressure of Chalice, Counterbalance and friends (mind WHO says this!) forcing people to adapt (or whine for bans. See: several threads). People are slower coming up with countermeasures than netdecking successful decks, thats why we see a sharp climb of Eldrazi rather than an evolution of how people build decks for the current metagame. I would not evaluate the metagame before Kadalesh block, giving the Legacy format enough time to potentially fix itself.

    For the discussed voting system, I have no idea how that should ever work out, if it clearly doesn't even do for the presidential election. The handling of fomats should not be dictated by populartiy of cards/decks or the lowest common denominator people agree on. In theory the case of the VSL influencing the recent banning decisions in Vintage was only a problem as the group was very "inbreed" (you know what I mean) and full of people enjoying their Tutors, Moxen and broken spell chains (looking at you Gush & DarkPetition). There was never an opposition within the group for other kind of decks to argue the pros & cons of the bans. I bet they go to destroy Dredge next (quote me on that) unless storm shreds it anyways.

    I don't know if its possible to pick a balanced group of experts on TheSource yet ignoring the fact that WotC & SCG would likely form a Legacy B&R committee soley with SCG Pros (aka "I love Brainstorm-based Aggro-Control) anyways...
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  12. #14232
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I don't know if its possible to pick a balanced group of experts on TheSource yet ignoring the fact that WotC & SCG would likely form a Legacy B&R committee soley with SCG Pros (aka "I love Brainstorm-based Aggro-Control) anyways...
    I vote we just pay Feline to run it. Always thought she was a good and level head.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  13. #14233
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I don't know if its possible to pick a balanced group of experts on TheSource yet ignoring the fact that WotC & SCG would likely form a Legacy B&R committee soley with SCG Pros (aka "I love Brainstorm-based Aggro-Control) anyways...
    Sounds like a plan to me... Ban stuff until anyDelver dominates the DTB section, then just plow through the field with Siege Rhinos. And get those banned too. Or basic lands, b/c Veteran Explorer is "unfair".

  14. #14234
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    There is NOTHING that needs to be banned in legacy right now... Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis? Are you kidding me?
    The format is in a pretty good spot right now. There is no reason to make people mad by banning Show and Tell and Brainstorm...
    Unbans don't make anyone mad, but make many happy. I completely agree with both of the unbans you suggested as well as Mana Drain, Survival of the Fittest, and Goblin Recuiter.
    Unbanning drain would be retarded. Like, insanely so.

  15. #14235

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Sounds like a plan to me... Ban stuff until anyDelver dominates the DTB section, then just plow through the field with Siege Rhinos. And get those banned too. Or basic lands, b/c Veteran Explorer is "unfair".
    Exactly, you cant just get a certain group decidin for everyone. Doesnt make anything better than it already is with WotC in control...
    Also "experts on The Source". Haha biggest joke I've ever heard.

    Mana drain? How?, counterspell is barely even played and Mana Drain isn't much better in a format with most spells costing 1-2 cmc.

  16. #14236
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    Mana drain? How?, counterspell is barely even played and Mana Drain isn't much better in a format with most spells costing 1-2 cmc.
    Mana Drain is a pillar of Vintage, which is a format with most spells costing 0-1 cmc. Maybe Vintage players don't realize it isn't any good?

  17. #14237
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I vote we just pay Feline to run it. Always thought she was a good and level head.
    Give me power >:)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  18. #14238
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Drain is fine in Legacy. If you want a turn three Jace you can already have it. Maybe it's too much in High Tide though.
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  19. #14239
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    Drain is fine in Legacy. If you want a turn three Jace you can already have it. Maybe it's too much in High Tide though.
    Short-sighted. Jace is really the best you can do with free mana?
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  20. #14240
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Before Legacy was Legacy, Mana Drain was one of the three strongest cards in the format by a pretty wide margin. It can stay where it is.

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