[SCD] Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Arsenal]

This card makes me mad for exactly 1 reason: There is no foil printing of Virtue's Ruin.

Now that is an answer that AnT should consider running more of in the board, not some 50/50 card like DoN. Ruin can be cast under a Teeg + Canonist + SoL board, and only Thalia makes it slightly worse, but still castable within a reasonable time frame.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Yep.


I'd love to build something like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Lolcat
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
4 SFM
4 RiP
3-4 best equips

Where's your format now?

I think somewere between a deed and a good control Deck which can actually destroy this plan with Oring Sword and Massremoval.

the real anoyance is a deck which contains

3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
3 Sol
4xVial

and some combination of Wasteland, Crucible, Sinkhole, Maelstrompulse, vindicate and Port.
Maybe some Discard to make it harder and round it upo against Combo and Control.

Mfg Teveshszat

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

How many hatecats you plan to play? Eleven? For what it's worth, stop pretending that ANT is the only deck that needs to draw something, Mav also needs it, and it even doesn't have the luxury to cantrip into it.
If I'd be playing Storm again, I'd simply cantrip as long as it would be possible into the best possible cards, be it removal, protection or kill or w/e. With Mav, you're bound to your opening hand and then topdeck, topdeck, topdeck, with occasional SFM into the mix. Who will find the needed stuff sooner? Who will find it more often? The deck with library manipulation, or the one with none of it?

If this cat starts some trend or if it even would be a part of some new 8Bear, 12Bear or dare to say even 16Bear deck, then yeah, expect the Storm players to overload their sb with answers. It's not like we/they can't win against control/tempo now, as sometimes all that it takes is Duress the Stifle, then drop the rites->ToA for the win (e.g. Thresh effectively starts at eighteen-sixteen life), so they'll just imporve their only miserable matchup, the prison archetype.

3 Abrupt Decay - kills Counterbalance and bear
3-4 DoN - kill the bear
1-3 sweepers - to kill the bear. Pyroclasm is fast, Virtue's Ruin doesn't care of pro:insertcolor, Infest doesn't care of color
2-4 Chain of Vapor - to remove Leyline or beaver
3 Xantid Swarm - blue matchups
1-2 Thougtseize/IoK - combo, control

Subtract or add to count fifteen and you have a recipe for sb. I may be a deck builder.

[Arsenal]

How many hatecats you plan to play? Eleven? For what it's worth, stop pretending that ANT is the only deck that needs to draw something, Mav also needs it, and it even doesn't have the luxury to cantrip into it.
If I'd be playing Storm again, I'd simply cantrip as long as it would be possible into the best possible cards, be it removal, protection or kill or w/e. With Mav, you're bound to your opening hand and then topdeck, topdeck, topdeck, with occasional SFM into the mix. Who will find the needed stuff sooner? Who will find it more often? The deck with library manipulation, or the one with none of it?

If this cat starts some trend or if it even would be a part of some new 8Bear, 12Bear or dare to say even 16Bear deck, then yeah, expect the Storm players to overload their sb with answers. It's not like we/they can't win against control/tempo now, as sometimes all that it takes is Duress the Stifle, then drop the rites->ToA for the win (e.g. Thresh effectively starts at eighteen-sixteen life), so they'll just imporve their only miserable matchup, the prison archetype.

3 Abrupt Decay - kills Counterbalance and bear
3-4 DoN - kill the bear
1-3 sweepers - to kill the bear. Pyroclasm is fast, Virtue's Ruin doesn't care of pro:insertcolor, Infest doesn't care of color
2-4 Chain of Vapor - to remove Leyline or beaver
3 Xantid Swarm - blue matchups
1-2 Thougtseize/IoK - combo, control

Subtract or add to count fifteen and you have a recipe for sb. I may be a deck builder.

I plan on playing 4 Thalia, 4 SoL, 1 Teeg (+4 GSZ) maindeck, so 9-13 hatebears maindeck. Postboard, I have 2 E Tutors, 2 Canonist + 1 Teeg. So postboard, I'll have 4 Thalia, 4 SoL, 2 Teeg, 2 Canonist, 2 E Tutor (to help find SoL and/or Canonist) and 4 GSZ (to help find my 2 Teeg), so 12-28 hatebears postboard.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...so 12-28 hatebears postboard.

Lotto machine much? This was some creative maths...

What if I plan to play 20 cantrips (including Portent) to draw into 1-of-4 DoN, Clasm, Ruin, Sulfur Elemental and Drop of Honey on turn 1? It's not like no Storm player ever won against DnT before the lolcat, and it's not that powerful to improve the win percentage by say 10 %.

Also, to return to more specific case we've seen right in this thread, I'm still questioning the power behind "in resp to 2nd CRit, I Vial in my 3/1 Spirit", but as you weren't the one who brought this, I'll let it t o sleep.

BtW, I guess that when lolcat hates the Storm outta format, a dedicated board control can make return. It'll be pretty epic to fight through 4-8 StPs, several Wraths and EEs, or through Innocent Blood and Deeds, or w/e; even Pox maybe and NoSB.

But all this stuff aside, the cat is strong and original, and I like it, but it's not like the end of Brainstorming is anywhere near. If this catches up (which I doubt, it's like that True-Name Card everybody speaks about, yet I never seen one IRL), I wil tinker with my Thresh to specifically beat those new DnTbuilds.
I guess that upping the Bolt count to eight (and of course, it'll be Forked Bolt) and use more Snares again, use Rough main, w/e.

[Megadeus]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

[Arsenal]

Sorry, meant 12-20. Not 28.

4 Thalia + 4 SoL + 2 Canonist + 2 Teeg = 12.

4 Thalia + 6 SoL (2 E Tutor) + 4 Canonist (2 E Tutor) + 6 Teeg (4 GSZ) = 20.

[Poron]

GSZ + Thalia?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Reading comprehension ftw.

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[Arsenal]

GSZ + Thalia?

What?

[Poron]

looks pretty anti-sinergic unless the decks has mana dorks. 4cc is the least at that point

[Arsenal]

looks pretty anti-sinergic unless the decks has mana dorks. 4cc is the least at that point

I don't think you've been following Maverick if you think Thalia and GSZ shouldn't be played in the same deck.

[Poron]

in effect, I've never been liking Maverick. I always found it out of gas (unless you play Sylvan Library that is out of question with this new addition)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Aaaand...Ignored.

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[Arsenal]

Infinite GSZ and KotR tutorable 20/20 dudes is the very definition of gas.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

Maybe we're just not fainting in horror over a 3/1 dude? Moreover when it's the worst of all hatebears?

Btw, do you know that there are some fundamental rules in this game? E.g. playing one land per turn?
Basically your 40HateBears20Lands.dec will still have only ONE bear out on turn2. Unless there's MoR/Safekeeper in play, the only thing a Storm player needs is ONE removal; if it's DoN, even better, as then he doesn't care of MoR. And even if he doesn't have removal:
- Teeg only prevents win, so you may cantrip or w/e; he might be by-passed by LED+IT->removal (but you need PiF in hand to win from there)
- Thalia doesn't stop neither victory nor cantrips (it just makes it harder to play them), so one may still cantrip into removal. With a good hand you may even win through Thalia, it's just a question of how many CRits/RoFs you'll draw
- Cannonist stops win and hinders cantrips, (s)he also doesn't die to single DoN. As such, it is "you lose" card unless Stormer is able to sculpt a hand with several Petals/LEDs and a wincon, maybe EtW.
- Lolcat only stops cantrips, so it doesn't do anything if the Storm dude doesn't need to cantrip. E.g. when he already played the 2nd CRit and is about to kill via AdN or Pif.

And all this doesn't even take Burning Wish into account.

Of the four bears, two die to DoN (which will get rid of all Moms, too), and the Lolcat is clearly the most situational.

Also, Virtue's Ruin is a WoG and there's no way how you may stop that turn1 Lotus Petal so that the Storm guy has an access to four mana later in the game, after he first fetches for basic Island to play as many cantrips as possible, before he searches [insert duals here] to wash away the face of the battleground.

And good luck with the 16 bears, the first fair deck will stomp your x/1s and x/2s. But that's metametametagaming...

[Lemnear]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

There was a bold claim that TES and ANT lose to decks with SotL and especially if SotL is vialed in as a response to a Ritual.

I still have no clue, nor got an answer how StoL affects the "strategy" of chaining mana into a Wish/Infernal Tutor into AN/PiF.

Does SotL affect the cantrips that are there to create a redundancy? Sure. Will the Spirit prevent Probes casted turn 1 for free? No. Does it prevent Ponder from digging for removal? No. Does SotL shit on Brainstorm? Yeah ... So that means that the card is only REALLY good against 4 cards in ANT/TES?! Render me not impressed...

There is no need to defend storm here, as SotL has a much lesser impact on storms STRATEGY than Thalia. Would be nice if anyone would bother to think about the counterarguments we brought up instead of repeating "ZOMG! SotL kills Storm!"

[Arsenal]

Maybe we're just not fainting in horror over a 3/1 dude? Moreover when it's the worst of all hatebears?

Btw, do you know that there are some fundamental rules in this game? E.g. playing one land per turn?
Basically your 40HateBears20Lands.dec will still have only ONE bear out on turn2. Unless there's MoR/Safekeeper in play, the only thing a Storm player needs is ONE removal; if it's DoN, even better, as then he doesn't care of MoR. And even if he doesn't have removal:
- Teeg only prevents win, so you may cantrip or w/e; he might be by-passed by LED+IT->removal (but you need PiF in hand to win from there)
- Thalia doesn't stop neither victory nor cantrips (it just makes it harder to play them), so one may still cantrip into removal. With a good hand you may even win through Thalia, it's just a question of how many CRits/RoFs you'll draw
- Cannonist stops win and hinders cantrips, (s)he also doesn't die to single DoN. As such, it is "you lose" card unless Stormer is able to sculpt a hand with several Petals/LEDs and a wincon, maybe EtW.
- Lolcat only stops cantrips, so it doesn't do anything if the Storm dude doesn't need to cantrip. E.g. when he already played the 2nd CRit and is about to kill via AdN or Pif.

And all this doesn't even take Burning Wish into account.

Of the four bears, two die to DoN (which will get rid of all Moms, too), and the Lolcat is clearly the most situational.

Also, Virtue's Ruin is a WoG and there's no way how you may stop that turn1 Lotus Petal so that the Storm guy has an access to four mana later in the game, after he first fetches for basic Island to play as many cantrips as possible, before he searches [insert duals here] to wash away the face of the battleground.

And good luck with the 16 bears, the first fair deck will stomp your x/1s and x/2s. But that's metametametagaming...

Fundamental rules of the game... like the attack step? I'm not understanding why you have such a nonchalant attitude of a board with hatebears and you having no removal in hand. If I have hatebears and you have no removal, it very much is a big deal for you. You act like you can just shrug your shoulders and not care about the fact that you're taking 4-5 points per turn and you have no removal in hand.

Again, how are you playing cantrips through SoL? How are you cantripping with your basic Island when SoL is out? I've asked this twice, and you haven't answered. I want to know how you're able to find your silver bullets answers when you didn't open with them/naturally draw them.

Also, I was beating fair decks like RUG Delver and Stoneblade just fine (well, not so much post-TNN, but that has more to do with TNN and less to do with my creature suite). Forked Bolt in RUG Delver has fallen drastically out of favor for stuff like Gitaxian Probe, so I don't really need to worry too much. And those 8 cantrips to find their 4 Bolts? Hmm, I heard SoL is good versus that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are correct in that Thalia is better against storms main gameplan, but denying that SoL is good against you is a ridiculous notion. It attacks your secondary plan of cantripping into chaining mana into a wish/it into AN/PiF, which is where the deck starts out in non-nut draws. Yeah, you will probably rattle a probe and another cantrip off before the kitty or Thalia comes down, but they both effectively end that strategy immediately as storm can't afford pondering @ 2 mana. It slows you down and any decent clock often gets the job done. Saying that SoL affects only 4 cards in storm is wrong. After a SoL hits the field, Spy Network starts competing for ponder and probes slots. No one plays Spy Network.

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[Arsenal]

It sounds like these Storm players are misevaluating the role of SoL in Maverick. SoL isn't there to insta-win versus Storm as that isn't what Maverick is capable of. SoL, like the other hatebears, is there to (a.) slow Storm down and make them find an answer to it or to sculpt an alternate avenue of winning and (b.) to beat face (which SoL does better than any other hatebear). Maverick is a grinder, Maverick wants you to play the game on their terms. If you're spending turns 1-for-1ing Maverick as gregtron suggested AnT do, Maverick is getting there. If you're spending turns and spending 2 mana for Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain in order to find your Abrupt Decay for Thalia, Maverick is getting there. If you're forced to do something you normally wouldn't want to do with AnT because Maverick is just naturally playing Magic (tapping mana for a dude, turning dudes sideways), Maverick is getting there.

If Maverick is getting there before SoL, then I fail to understand why Maverick + SoL would make AnT better? Why AnT players are saying "DoN, no big deal" when the matchup often times is far more complicated than that? Why Bed Decks Player states that AnT can get there versus Maverick's hatebears without removal because there are other avenues of winning?