Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Wow. I stop playing and coming here for a few years (just circumstances! I still love the game!) and return only to discover that Goyf apparently sucks and Deathrite Shaman got banned (!?). I'm not surprised about Mental Misstep and Top, but... DRS? Wow.
Guess I have a lot of catching up to do.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment
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Deathrite was fine as long as it was only played in Maverick, Jund, Elves and Nic Fit. It was when Grixis Delver started playing it that it got too good. Or, the Delver deck got too good. Then Grixis Delver evolved into Grixis Control, cutting Delver for Strix and making a few other changes, and those two decks ruled legacy until the Deathrite ban. Gitaxian Probe got banned at the same time, it was run with Young Pyromancer and Cabal therapy, usually, in Grixis delver.
TL:DR of the last 4 years: daze breaks any cheap CA engine, since it is so broken in the early turns and then engines makes up for its late game weakness.
Daze decks got TC, DRS, W6, Lurrus, Dreadhorde arcanist, and Oko banned. They also contributed to the bannings of probe and DTT. The above engines except for treasure cruise and lurrus were totally fine in the shells they were designed for.
Daze did not get those cards banned. Fetches got DRS and TC/DTT banned. Probe is a cantripping Lotus Petal that slotted into a Delver deck that was already getting double mana from Fetches once the delve mechanic was printed.
Wrenn got Wrenn banned, Oko got Oko banned - end of story.
Fireblast dealing 4 and making 3 mana towards TC is a waaaaaaay better [incorrect] reason for TC being banned than Daze. Mana exploits are the most reliable way to reliably draw a ban...so until alt-casting Daze requires that you put a land *into* play [i.e. ramp], it isn't anywhere near the same level. It's not about one deck, it's straight-up mana exploits.
Daze is a mana exploit. In a format where engines cost 2 or 3 mana, daze on your spell snare targeting W6 is a better than a cantripping lotus petal.
Mmm....no. There is no play pattern that profitably beats turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy lose 2 cards (attacks 2nd player compensation mechanism of drawing an extra card) into turn 3 Gurmags etc.
Against Daze, every who builds a deck in legacy knows the way you construct to beat Delver is to turn all their land, Daze, and Bolt topdecks into dead draws. That is to say that you can actually pursue a viable strategy at construction and in play patterns. There is no such strategy vs Delver with a cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe).
The chance of having doubles in your hand is rather low. That is a 2 card combo that maybe puts you up 1 card if you have something to sac or the opponent is unlucky. Probe TES wasn’t tier 0. The problem was daze meant your pyromancer never dies without creating value, which makes therapy always a 2 for 1.
Absolutely everyone says that doesn’t apply when they have an engine on board. If they have a Dreadhorde arcanist you need to jam and hope they don’t have it, since the daze pays for itself every turn the DHA attacks.
Giving cantripping Lotus Petal was only a problem as it let Omni outrace DRS yard control in the race towards DTT and to an even greater degree, b/c it was given to a fair deck completely immune to being hated out by a SB card. There is nothing okay about a sequence that has no answer (turn 0 Probe Sea Therapy) into never losing to any SB card. Leyline of Nobody can cast Creatures was the level of nonsense they'd need to print to give people the option to just win vs Probe's worst offender.
Daze is not mana positive [it "exerts" a land], which is why it isn't in the same league as Probe. Daze is super annoying though, I'll grant you that...but it is very much beatable.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Hmm, doing some quick math here, how many degrees of difference is there between 0 and 1?
Infinity? I think the answer is infinity.
So, I can't see how that comparison really works. Then again, I'm not a mathematician, so maybe we just could never know, .
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Take a powerful card, up its power by about 30%, split it into two cards you have to have at the same time to get the full effect, then ban one.
Perfect.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
The real issue is that Probe makes ALL your interaction better with information for free. Mana free, card advantage free, and gives NOTHING away. It makes your playlines apparent and makes your opponent play differently (read: less ideal for their game) and even that won't stop you from having enough information to decide what to do at that point to render even that line, all lines of play, ineffective. Pair it with Therapy and it gets increasingly better for you. If you also have a Daze/FoW, you've likely already won.
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Probe is mana positive guys. See also the delve and threshold mechanics. Say it with me: cantripping Lotus Petal. All you need to know about Probe.
Zero mana look at opponent's hand for no card disadvantage is a miserable option to have in a card game, which are supposed (obviously subjective opinion but I think it's fairly important to most people's enjoyment of them) to involve aspects of hidden information and bluffing etc.
You can argue about the interaction of probe with therapy or delve or pif or whether having probe in your deck increases your win% more than e.g. daze or any other card but I think this is missing the point.
Thoughtseize / Peek are acceptable imo even though they remove hidden information in the same way because the chasm between 0 and 1 mana is enormous.
Well, ofc probe is good, top notch cards in tier 1 decks will always be "stupid good" tier.
The question is how good probe is, of course it's not black lotus level, but i would argue that it is better than any recently banned card but SDT.
So fair ban to me.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
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