All B/R update speculation.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You can't print a card that answers both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

White should get a hatebear that says something like "Whenever a creature enters play if it was not cast from hand exile it unless it's controller pays X where X is it's casting cost"

Also Humility Exists and Reanimator is probably the superior deck.

[Kich867]

Also Humility Exists and Reanimator is probably the superior deck.

Reanimator is the superior deck against that deck and gets kind of owned by graveyard hate (which is a common sideboard anyways). Humility is easy to deal with, they'll adapt, rapidly.

So we go cycling through us trying to find answers that they can't really deal with that well and them using very, very easy means to stop it. Humility means they can't put a clock on you and you can't put a clock on them. They get an emrakul and a griselbrand down, bounce humility and swing for the win. They'll have time to set that up and they sure as hell have the dig for it between brainstorm and ponder and fetches.

Trying to break the symmetry of Show and Tell isn't the answer. Hatebears and enchantments are easy for red and blue to deal with if you only need one swing to win. They board in easy, cheap solutions to our highly specific and targeted hate that holds our sideboards hostage.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Reanimator is the superior deck against that deck and gets kind of owned by graveyard hate (which is a common sideboard anyways). Humility is easy to deal with, they'll adapt, rapidly.

So we go cycling through us trying to find answers that they can't really deal with that well and them using very, very easy means to stop it. Humility means they can't put a clock on you and you can't put a clock on them. They get an emrakul and a griselbrand down, bounce humility and swing for the win. They'll have time to set that up and they sure as hell have the dig for it between brainstorm and ponder and fetches.

Trying to break the symmetry of Show and Tell isn't the answer. Hatebears and enchantments are easy for red and blue to deal with if you only need one swing to win. They board in easy, cheap solutions to our highly specific and targeted hate that holds our sideboards hostage.

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

[Kich867]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

This just goes down to the idea that whether it's prevalent or not shouldn't be the ruling on why it's banned; if no one plays it that's fine, but it's still a problem to the format. It should still be banned, it's going to get worse as they print more silly YuGiOh creatures (they have only up to go from here..).

And apologies for speaking in absolutes on the internet. I know how hard that can be to ignore sometimes. God damn wrong people on the internet.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This just goes down to the idea that whether it's prevalent or not shouldn't be the ruling on why it's banned; if no one plays it that's fine, but it's still a problem to the format. It should still be banned, it's going to get worse as they print more silly YuGiOh creatures (they have only up to go from here..).

And apologies for speaking in absolutes on the internet. I know how hard that can be to ignore sometimes. God damn wrong people on the internet.

If something doesn't see play that is a pretty good indication it shouldn't be banned. I can't imagine they could print anything else at this point that would make the cut for Show & Tell. I know I've said that before but really at this point what else could they print. Also on a related note, it's still too early to demands bannings, but if anything needs to be banned it is going to be GBrand.

[majikal]

The SCG Invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure Legacy'y health. Remember the tournament is half Standard, and they don't separate the decklists by best performance per format - it's just a composite of best performance overall.

[mini1337s]

the scg invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure legacy's health.

qft

[Vacrix]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Agreed. That shouldn't be THAT hard.

(card name) BB
Creature - Vampire
Whenever a creature comes into play, that player sacrifices that creature unless he or she pays life equal to its mana cost.
2/1

(would be pretty good against a deck like Goblins too that wants to play stuff that costs 3 to 5 mana, but taking 15 from Emrakul is kinda boss. get some discard in to slow down the deck and it won't be able to drop Emrakul.)

or...

(card name) 1U
Enchantment
When a creature comes into play, sacrifice ~. If you do, gain control of that creature.

(standstill for creatures)

[I am the brainwasher]

(card name) 1U
Enchantment
When a creature comes into play, sacrifice ~. If you do, gain control of that creature.

I'd love to see such a card, even though it would be a bit undercosted for 1U IMO.

Would it work against Show and Tell in terms of when both permanents enter the battlefield and its trigger? Not quite sure by this specific wording.

[salvor]

I'd love to see such a card, even though it would be a bit undercosted for 1U IMO.

Would it work against Show and Tell in terms of when both permanents enter the battlefield and its trigger? Not quite sure by this specific wording.

You will get to stack two "when creature etb" triggers (since you're the controler of enchantement), so you'll be able to chose which creature you'll control.

[mini1337s]

Couldn't they just print Control Magic as an enchantment?

2UU - Enchantment
Sacrifice: Gain control of target creature.


And yes, I recognize that this would always be first picked in limited :D

[Final Fortune]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

Regardless of whether or not it's Sneak/Show or Reanimator, both decks are abusing Griselbrand and Show&Tell so it doesn't really change our ban candidates. I still think Sneak/Show edges out Reanimator also, because even tho' Reanimator has the edge game 1 it has to deal with graveyard hate for games 2 and 3 in the head to head match up and vs the rest of the field. It actually makes me wonder if Dredge is the dark horse here, because it benefits significantly when Reanimator dictates the graveyard hate and SBs move to Surgical Extraction, or even better, Faerie Macabre and the switch from Elesh Norn to Blazing Archon means the Flayer of the Hatebound lists can still win thru' the "lock"

[Tacosnape]

I can't imagine they could print anything else at this point that would make the cut for Show & Tell.

Did you imagine they'd print Griselbrand? Did people years ago imagine they'd print Emrakul?

Give Wizards long enough and they'll print something even more nuts. Wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the next block:

Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13

EDIT: Also, Invitationals have never been actually representative of metagames, for whatever reason.

SECOND EDIT: Kenjawn's really not all that powerful, anyway. You can always just counter the enabler. And it still goes down to Humility and Ixidron. And there's plenty of hospitals that offer chemo treatments. And you can always get a relative to donate you half of their liver if they're a match. People should quit whining and learn to adapt.

[PascalF]

The SCG Invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure Legacy'y health. Remember the tournament is half Standard, and they don't separate the decklists by best performance per format - it's just a composite of best performance overall.

I agree with you, majikal.

But lets pretend for a moment that it is:

The top 16 decks were 4 griselbrand decks, 11 other blue decks and 1 maverick.

Lets take a quick look at the maindeck of these decks:

Decks playing force: 15 (8 in the top 8)
Decks playing daze+force: 8 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing spell pierce+force: 12 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing force and targeted discard: 5 (4 in the top 8)
(This number goes up to 8 (6 in the top 8) if you count Vendilion clique)
Decks playing brainstorm: 14 (7 in the top 8)
Decks playing griselbrand: 4(2 in the top 8)
Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)

I think it`s fair to say that each of the 16 is either tuned to fight griselbrand combo (mostly via counters/hand disruption, but even the maverick deck played fauna shaman/linvala/peacekeeper main) or griselbrand combo.

So it´s good that this event is not representative, because to me it looks like a Griselbrand v anti-griselbrand format.

[rxavage]

I agree with you, majikal.

But lets pretend for a moment that it is:

The top 16 decks were 4 griselbrand decks, 11 other blue decks and 1 maverick.

Lets take a quick look at the maindeck of these decks:

Decks playing force: 15 (8 in the top 8)
Decks playing daze+force: 8 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing spell pierce+force: 12 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing force and targeted discard: 5 (4 in the top 8)
(This number goes up to 8 (6 in the top 8) if you count Vendilion clique)
Decks playing brainstorm: 14 (7 in the top 8)
Decks playing griselbrand: 4(2 in the top 8)
Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)

I think it`s fair to say that each of the 16 is either tuned to fight griselbrand combo (mostly via counters/hand disruption, but even the maverick deck played fauna shaman/linvala/peacekeeper main) or griselbrand combo.

So it´s good that this event is not representative, because to me it looks like a Griselbrand v anti-griselbrand format.

AS opposed to the Mav vs anti-mav format of months previous? This can be done with just about any top tier deck. But it's pretty known that the SCG dudes would be on Reanimator so that kind of skews thing a little.

[Tacosnape]

Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)

This is kind of the major point of why I think it might take more than one banning to fix this format.

Even if one thing goes, though, maybe there's hope for improvement.

EDIT: Also, fuck Mav vs. Anti-Mav shit. There's a trillion ways to beat Maverick, and I can tune any deck to put up a good fight against it. Beating Maverick and beating RUG Delver and/or Sneaky Show are not even the same discussion.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm goes 16 for 18. That seems balanced. Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'i woud quit' and other indirect non-answers that have no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards.

[Snap_Keep]

Duals define the format, they are a pillar and are in most legacy decks. I would quit if the banned duals. Should we ban those too?

Duals and Brainstorm are the part of the core of the format, why not play a format without Brainstorm if you're so tired of it?

[Star|Scream]

Did you imagine they'd print Griselbrand? Did people years ago imagine they'd print Emrakul?

Give Wizards long enough and they'll print something even more nuts. Wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the next block:

Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13

lulz

[wizard_of_gore]

Brainstorm goes 16 for 18. That seems balanced. Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'i woud quit' and other indirect non-answers that have no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards.

"Brainstorm whinners" and "brainstorm defenders" are both annoying.
Altough, brainstorm whinners are more annoying than defenders. I don't know which side is in right, but the fact is that both side are so fuckin boring with arguing about one stupid ordinary card in format. Brainstorm fix your hand! SO FUCKING WHAT?

16 of 16 decks played fetch lands, so, how about that we ban fetchlands? There are no chance for non-fetchland deck to top 16 because flooded strand and scalding tarn are so unfair. I think we have problem with format. Swords to plowshares?????? it can take any creature for W only???? SO unfair! lets ban stp!!!!