Veteran Explorer Doomsday

[Lemnear]

Faster than ANT and slower than TES doesn't seem logic to me. TES is (basicly) ANT with a splash into white. There are some other differences, but ANT is usually faster than TES.
TES still comes out ahead of ANT as it has more protection like the chant effects. (not to mention DDFT here which can be piloted around stuff like thalia, teek AND mindbreak trap at the same time.

Sorry, I'm pretty sure that you have no clue about Legacy storm combo. This part tells all if you can't see differences between running Moxen or lands, Cabal Ritual or Rite of Flame, Preordain or Wish, etc.

[mistercakes]

I'm an avid doomsday player and I really like what you've done here. I was wondering how much it hurts your deck if you just run more Gitaxian probes. Does it make using the top and brainstorm that much worse? Can this compensate in terms of great cabal therapies?

[anwei]

I'm half a Doomsday player and I don't think the pieces will work well enough (I goldfishes ~15-20 games)
-Too much mana, not enough business
-Too many circumstantial cards, especially the sac mana
-Not enough of key cards (Probe) to ensure good Doomsdays
-Circumstantial cards make IT bad in many hands
-The Doomsday half doesn't have a compelling advantage over Doomsday (mana isn't really better) when playing that route; the SI/Storm half doesn't have a compelling advantage over SI/Storm

Overall, Explorer opens up some insane draws, but there are way more really-bad draws and far fewer ways to fix them.
Sometimes I storm out on turn 2 and hit 15 storm because I had 12 mana to work with. More often, I'd have trouble finding more business. You shouldn't keep a hand with IT and Brainstorm and end up stuck with no more manipulation/selection on turn 2-3, but that sort of thing happens too often here.

[Umbranex]

On the subject of protection -- are we convinced that we need it? Why not just tune the deck in the direction of Nic Fit philosophy: if they have a Force, just power through it. This is kind of where I think Past in Flames is crucial -- between recursion and discard, you'll just run most opponents out of protection. That's a pretty core concept to Nic Fit, and despite being a super specialized version of Nic Fit, I would still consider this to be a variant thereof.

Yea I can see that being a good course. Its just weird seeing this kind of hybrid deck... trying to decide which way it is leaning lol. Running PiF would make it easier to power through opposing disruption and in that case I can see not running more than just the Therapies... and possibly cutting a therapy or two. We could always go with more digging or searching if we want to really not care about our opponent and just try to power through their answers... that would also help address the below issue some as well.

I'm half a Doomsday player and I don't think the pieces will work well enough (I goldfishes ~15-20 games)
-Too much mana, not enough business
-Too many circumstantial cards, especially the sac mana
-Not enough of key cards (Probe) to ensure good Doomsdays
-Circumstantial cards make IT bad in many hands
-The Doomsday half doesn't have a compelling advantage over Doomsday (mana isn't really better) when playing that route; the SI/Storm half doesn't have a compelling advantage over SI/Storm

Overall, Explorer opens up some insane draws, but there are way more really-bad draws and far fewer ways to fix them.
Sometimes I storm out on turn 2 and hit 15 storm because I had 12 mana to work with. More often, I'd have trouble finding more business. You shouldn't keep a hand with IT and Brainstorm and end up stuck with no more manipulation/selection on turn 2-3, but that sort of thing happens too often here.

I havent had time to test any even goldfishing (very busy lately barely have time to read the forums and post on a few the past few days ) but I can see how this could be a concern. In that case we could cut a few cards for more dig. possibly a couple of the mana spells could be sheared away since between VE and all the rits and LEDs this deck doenst have any problem generating mana (especially if PiF is used and the creature chosen is Prime Time)

[DireLemming]

With the amount of mana available I don't see the point of IU. In the same vain going old-school with Meditate over Bargain might be a good idea, as Mediate is easier on the mana and doesn't cost life (and can be a proper draw spell in a grindy game). Otherwise an awesome development, I really see this going places.

[emidln]

There's a conflict between the size of the acceleration package and playing Doomsday+Infernal Tutor. I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't simply a conflict in playing Doomsday. Some analysis:

Draw spells with Doomsday:
- 4 Sensei's Divining Top
- 4 Brainstorm
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
- 5 Wild Dogs/Summoner's Pact
- 1 Cruel Bargain
- 1 Ideas Unbound
- 1 Burning Wish (1RUU (IU), 1R (GP), 1RBBB (draw4))

4 SDT is correct for reasons I've stated in other threads. In this deck, it has the obvious spinning mode, but that is actually less important than the "Suspend 1 - Draw a card or exile ~ with a time counter." mode or the 1, draw a card sometime this turn mode. The second to last mode lets you "store" mana for a later turn and the third mode gives you a permanent-based (and thus compatible with Infernal Tutor) way of drawing a card for a single mana.

4 Brainstorm is hard to argue with as the other way to draw lots of cards. Brainstorm in hand and BBBU often means the opponent is dead, particularly in decks like this where you have no trouble finding a few storm before.

1 Gitaxian Probe is understandable in the context of only maindecking 2 Doomsday (which seems very wrong given there is no Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, or ETW (not that any of those are at their best here); see discussion below on 2 Doomsday).

5 Wild Dogs / Summoner's Pact is really awesome. Neutral cantrip for 2 is actually fine most of the time (particularly when you generate gobs of mana and can use a spare mana card to be the 2 colorless draw spell).

1 Cruel Bargain is necessary. You make gobs of black mana (ritual-based and as land). This means your draw4 is castable normally (culling the weak an explorer into draw4? sign me up), and you often have an overabundance of non-blue mana when you get around to Doomsday.

1 Ideas Unbound is probably also necessary, mostly due to how much cheaper it can be. It's use as a pre-combo cantrip is somewhat diminished given that blue mana isn't often going to be the focus, but that might happen.

Notable omissions:

1 Ponder. Note how this isn't 4 Ponder. You obviously don't really have the time or inclination to cantrip for days in this deck. Ponder is a critical piece of several SDT/Brainstorm piles where you want to kill with ToA, but your library isn't stacked right. It's more efficient (by 1 vs cast SDT+rearrange) when you have to find your way past a dead brainstorm card without decking yourself. This is often the difference between U/1U lethal piles and non-lethal piles. Arguable. I'm assuming that it isn't being missed for a combination of reasons (including some people just not knowing about where it might be useful), but in 40 hands, I missed it twice causing me to pass turns where I shouldn't have had to.

If you count the draw spells, you might notice that there are actually fewer than we play in DDFT. DDFT has an often surprising (to those unfamiliar with its nature) ability to kill on turn 2 (at a frequency that rivals TES and ANT's abilities to actually end the game with Tendrils) despite playing fewer acceleration spells and no Ad Nauseam. The secret here is that in Doomsday, 1 draw spell equals 1 spare Black Lotus. An extra card in hand equals an extra Black Lotus in hand. Double cantrip piles are critical for tournament success, and having a cantrip available whenever you have BBB + Doomsday is necessary to actually take advantage of your gobs of mana.

So, we (or I at least) want more draw spells. We're already at 62 cards mind you.

Strategic issues:

Doomsday < MAX (4 DD in the 75)

Playing fewer than max Doomsdays without appropriate business for IT. IT has three modes in this deck: IT chain (this is fine, you have mana and storm); IT->Doomsday (this is awful, but we could fix it; right now you only have 4 SDT enabling); IT->BW->ETW (this costs 8). The only one that is actually okay is the first one. The second one needs Chromatic Sphere/Star to make it more likely to be the right thing. The fourth could actually be fixed by maindecking any of the things that have been tried in the past AdN, PiF, ETW, IGG) so that IT->business is only 6-7 total mana. All of that said, most of your issues go away if you become the Doomsday deck.

The Doomsday deck plays MAX doomsdays and the most efficient enablers. It also recognizes that Doomsday is a value tutor on its own, and doesn't necessary need the help of a cantrip (pass the turn piles). Specifically, what does this mean? Well, you need to be on 3 DD+multiple BW or 4 DD. Once you have this, you need max Gitaxian Probes (the card says draw a card, has no drawback, adds a storm, is free, and is legal in the format (i.e. not an Unglued spell)). Once you find your way to this path, you need to decide if you want BW or Infernal Tutor (or Diabolic Intent, but I think I've seen iterations of this where you were trying that and it didn't seem to work out needing to sac dudes for Culling, Therapy, and DI).

If you want IT, you need decide how many. I don't believe there is enough space for 4 and something to make IT good (but feel free to prove me wrong), which diminishes the single strong use case for IT (IT chains). If you want 4 IT, you probably need to support it with Petals + ETW/Ad Naus OR with permanent-based cantrips. PiF doesn't work due to not having enough castable things, and IGG can be awkward for the same reasons. Petals + ETW/ADN take up a ton of slots (we want more draw spells if we're going to be a Doomsday deck, and we're already at 62 cards...). Chromatic Sphere/Star are fairly interesting in that they let you invest both black (which you have a lot of) and green (which you have more of than you really are interested in for a combo deck) and turn them into blue plus a draw. This means you can IT->Doomsday and then use a Chromatic to draw a card. It can give you a 2nd blue for IU, a mana for Meditate, or just a useful draw effect. You probably aren't interested in a full set, but supplementing SDT is important. Sphere also has implications in making Doomsday a good pass the turn spell.

It you want BW, you probably need a significant rearchitecture to support more red (via Manamorphose, Simian Spirit Guide, or slowing down a turn). I'm not really going to explore this line here, but for those interested, visit storm boards and see the VANT thread for some discussion of a similar deck that includes multiple BWs on occasion.

It you want to make DD a strong pass the turn card, you have a couple options. 2 BW, IU, and 1RUU in your list lets you build the
Time Spiral pass the turn pile. This would probably be non-optimal in terms of supporting an extra BW, but is otherwise very doable with Veteran Explorer. With two slots, Laboratory Maniac (plus Chromatic Sphere) makes for an interesting kill that is actually immune to removal spells (drawing off sphere is a mana ability and thus won't use the stack, so you can cast Sphere, cast Maniac,
cycle sphere without passing priority. Lab Man has numerous applications avoiding hate and being an efficient Pass the Turn kill condition and thus might want to be investigated. Another option is IGG (or BW->IGG, the less efficient step sister) and abusing Brainstorm, LEDs, and SDT to make a boatload of mana.

That said, the deck needs to reconcile itself to become a legit Infernal Tutor deck or it needs to become the Doomsday deck. If you move down the path of IT, Chromatic Sphere is something that should probably become a 1-2 of. If you move in on becoming a Doomsday deck, you'll need to figure out where to add in 3 Probe, and probably a Chromatic Sphere plus Lab Man.

[Vacrix]

I like where everyone's discussions are taking Veteran Explorer in storm. Ultimately, I'm not interested in limiting our discussion to specific business suites because I would rather us explore the efficacy of Veteran Explorer and Summoner's Pact along with the other cards that play well with these, being Cabal Therapy and Culling the Weak. DI is a card I played with for a time, but I found it to have the same limitations as Doomsday; you need that other card to get it to work. I tried a 3 BW/3 DD list and it was incredibly fun to goldfish. I've also tried VANT lists that play Ad Nauseam as the business spells I've found just need too many non-land sources in a deck thats trying to abuse interacts within VE which means running basics, and then green fetches, which means Dryad Arbor, Culling the Weak and Cabal Therapy.

I've been playing this list today and I really like it so far:

- VE Doomsday -
Pact-package - 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wild Dogs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wolfbriar Elemental

Acceleration - 13
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

Land - 13
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Cantrip/Protection - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe

Business - 9
1 Burning Wish
1 Idea's Unbound
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

61 cards

I'm still just tweaking everything to see how 1'of business configurations end up once you are cantripping your way into a positive combination. For example, I've been playing with only 1 Doomsday because when it falls into my lap, its usually works the way you want it to. I think that having the option to Doomsday can be just as powerful as making it the focus of your game plan. However, diversifying business options means that when you have multiple business, they don't conflict and slow you down. One example I noticed that worked incredibly well is giving Pact the opportunity to be a business spell. I stopped my testing to write this particular post because I had a turn 4 situation in which I had LED in play and 2 ESGS. I Pact for Wolfbriar Elemental, and then I get a 4/4 and 5 2/2's, with 4 lands in my upkeep. 14 power out of a 0 mana spell thats usually a manasource, color fixer, or cantrip for Doomsday? You see where this is going. Pact is incredibly strong, but a single Wolfbriar can mean that you can stretch out your game a bit by playing the role of finding BW into Damnation, and then go for a mid to late game Wolfbriar. Normally you can't just cast it (G mana limitations) for incredible plays like you might think initially; its best used with LEDs, ESGs, and G-duals and a Pact once you've already hit 4 lands (which can happen turn 2 thanks to VE, making Wolfbriar viable as a business spell). It almost seems like a green empty the warrens with a elegant 4/4 body attached to it. Excellent card design. However, its a business spell that plays nicely with Tendrils as well, since you can mini-tendrils against aggro, and then multikicker your way into a combat race against aggro decks if you need to. I'm about to go back to testing, but Wolfbriar might also be good in some kind of Belcher variant, or Elves which is already playing Summoner's Pact.

[serenechaos]

I've been working with a friend on an ANT list with Explorer. We both feel that Doomsday is not supported by enough broken in Legacy to be as strong of an engine. However, it is certainly not unplayable, and you should pursue this list, as it seems to be coming along quite nicely.

Mostly I just wanted to mention the tech that my friend gave me, because any deck trying to abuse Explorer and Storm desperately needs it: Phyrexian Tower.

Also, I've been finding a miser Witness to be strong, because you can Culling-->Rit-->Pact for Witness--> Tendrils-->Witness-->Tendrils, or similar lines. But again, my list is ANT, not Doomsday. Not sure how well it would translate.

[Vacrix]

I'd play the miser Eternal Witness if there were more space. Wolfbriar is probably going to be stronger as business turn 2 and later, while Eternal Witness is more suitable for being the catalyst that produces a lethal spell chain. You can use it to recover in a real-game situation, which is where I've found it proves its worth more so than in goldfishing or even general testing. However, when you play with Ewit, you'll also want to try the Entomb package and PIF. You can basically condense Grinding Station as a deck into a 6 card package of 4 Entomb, 1 PIF, 1 Tendrils. Then, if you run into multiple business spells, for example PIF + Entomb, you can Entomb for Tendrils. When you flashback Entomb via PIF, you can find Narcomoeba if you need it to flashback CtW.

I don't know about Tower actually. Not having access to a sacrifice effect and/or that extra black mana isn't going to be nearly as relevant as not having an initial black for powerful turn 1 plays. Sure you could lead with Top and a Tower, but multiple towers means more cantrips means an entirely different deck structure. If you want to play Tower though, Tukatongue Thallid sounds like something you'll want to play, and likely Diabolic Intent as well since Tower seeks to focus on sacrifice effects. A sacrifice focus to the deck makes me think that Urborg Justice would be worth exploring.

[serenechaos]

Essentially, Tower is not so much for abusing sacrifice effects as it is for having a sac outlet that plays with the abnormal creature count, and is also freaking bonkers with Explorer. It's especially good for bomby Turn 2s, rather than explosive Turn 1s, but you can still get there with ESG/Petal-->Vet-->Tower-->go nuts.

All that being said, I currently run 2, and I wouldn't run more than that. It's essentially an uncounterable and repeatable (but Waste-able) CtW. The important thing to note is that it is much more powerful in an ANT build, because Turn 1 Vet, Turn 2 Tower=5 mana.

[Vacrix]

Agreed, but that combination is 5 at the expense of your turn 1 play on many occasions because its not a black IMS. I think that the deck functions best without Tower because the mana base feels more stable. CtW, Drit, and LED are plenty explosive as it is. In fact, I've had so much mana sometimes on turn 2, that if I lead with Top, I look, Pact (shuffles), play Explorer, look, crack Explorer (shuffles), look... sometimes looking through 9 cards means you've found a business spell and then you can dump it all into a Tendrils, or perhaps an EtW. Other times it means setting up a turn 4 kill, because you'll have to pay for Pact.

I'm about to try Dream Salvage and IGG as singletons in the IT focused business suite. Cards like Probe, Pact, and Therapy make me think that IGG is going to be a powerful pre-board business spell. I'm worried Dream Salvage will be dead whenever its there, but I don't know yet how often IT --> IGG, IT --> Salvage is going to be the optimal line of play.


EDIT:
I just executed an intriguing line of play in which I had a Pact, a LED, 2 ITS, and a bunch of floating mana from Drit/Culling/Explorer on turn 2. The line of play I just discovered was instead of turning a spare IT into a LED, you can turn both of them into LEDs, and then Pact for Wolfbriar because the Explorer means you will have 4 lands to pay Pact's upkeep. This would be a line of play you'd be forced into if you encountered a turn 0 Leyline or something. Pouring 3 LEDs into a Pact is incredible because it means you can go off with just LEDs and Pacts, independent of storm count, and also through multiple countermagic because your business spell costs 0. This is a useful line of play under Thalia or hate bears because you can shit an entire team with the right set up, and you have the lands (and basics to avoid Wasteland) to cantrip.

[Claymore]

I posted this in the MTGS thread, but a Phyrexian Tower in the board would be more fuel for a mainboard Living Wish.

[Kap'n Cook]

This deck looks sick and I will definitely be putting it together. While I personally would just call it Veteran's Day I'll leave that to Vacrix.

Vacrix are you liking this or the entomb package more?

[Alexeezay]

what about Gaea's Revenge as a Pactable finisher? good vs control

Also: why a basic mountain and not rather a second forest/swamp?

[Sloshthedark]

modo necro

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/295113#paper

this is just wow 3 decks together... but the idea of Veteran Explorer and Storm lives on

[P-E]

Ahah good catch Martin !
I hâve some spare leds i ll Sleeve this

[kombatkiwi]

That deck does look sick, makes me sad I sold my LEDs yesterday.
Seems like a slightly more grindy version with no Pacts could be the way to go.

[haganbmj]

They're a 0-post user on the forums by the way. They sent me a PM after that event was posted.
Exert from the message: "I finished yesterday 3-1 on Mtgo and today again, leaving me with a total of 0-2, 3-1, 3-1 in online tournaments so far..."

I like the Titan package - it's essentially a pair of bodies - which was part of the problem of some of the other Zenith targets.