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Thread: UW Sagas

  1. #101

    Re: UW Sagas

    Don't get hung up on the idea of being a tokens deck: Monastery Mentor makes tokens, but if anyone suggested playing Glorious Anthem or Opposition to 'combo' with Mentor then it would rightly be seen as going overboard

    So again Paladin Class doesn't really make much sense for the deck because it's basically just a big glorious anthem
    Monk Class is *okay* but it seems like it's rarely going to be better than copying something else with Estrid's Invo like abundant growth or whatever

    The problem with the artifacts idea is that all the enchantments you supposedly want to copy cost way too much mana (except for Urza's Saga which has no great synergy with being copied anyway)

  2. #102

    Re: UW Sagas

    Paladin’s class was more because I felt the mini defence grid ability was worth a card in its own right. If you feel that part is not good enough than yah it’s bad.

    In my opinion 1-2 mana bounce a card is stronger than 0 mana draw; more people play 3feri than narset.

    If 2/2 tokens are strong enough by themselves, why not bug just for sarcomancy? In general anytime I drew 2 they got there but 1 didn’t have enough support or got decayed with only 1. Consistent streams of 2/2s could be good enough. Then you can fit in more interaction as you need less support cards and ramp.

    Growth+sprawl+sarcomancy & omen+ranger+trial seems like the strongest possible core of <3 cmc targets.

  3. #103

    Re: UW Sagas

    Example list:

    4 Utopia Sprawl
    4 Abundant Growth
    3 Wild Growth
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Cling to Dust

    4 Ranger Class
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Trial of Ambition

    4 Estrid’s Invocation
    3 Riptide Chimera

    1 Binding of the Old Gods

    4 Forest
    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta

    ———
    1 Yorion


    Comments:
    Aminatou is much better than riptide but I wanted more than 4 payoffs and I wasn’t sure if the mana was viable.
    Manabase is meant to go t1 ramp, t2 enchantment plus disruption.
    All the ramp makes yorion better than in UWx builds.
    Much more interaction/clock than enchantress.
    Very low curve compared to my other builds.

  4. #104

    Re: UW Sagas

    I don't totally hate the idea of being BUG because I think using Sarcomancy is okay (1 mana for that effect can be a significant upgrade even if you only get 1x 2/2), but I don't really like Riptide Chimera and I dont think this deck really wants to play wild growth/utopia sprawl because you don't have enough payoffs. If you go turn 1 Sprawl/Growth into turn 2 Estrid/Chimera you don't even have anything good to copy/bounce. Trial of ambition is alright (the combo with Estrid is obviously not that bad) but you don't have any 1-mana removal which seems awkward

    Like the more I think about it the more I do want to try something like the following idea

    2 Tundra
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Savannah
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Flooded Strand
    2 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Island
    [not totally sure about the manabase]

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Plow
    4 Force
    2 Negation
    2 Prismatic Ending

    4 History
    4 Abundant Growth
    2 Omen or 1 Omen 1 Crumbs
    2 Thin Ice
    4 Estrid's Invocation
    2 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Time Raveler

  5. #105

    Re: UW Sagas

    I do think history is great if we are willing to have 3 cmc targets. But as said earlier, perhaps copying 3 and 4 mana things is win more. If we only want 1 or 2 mana targets for curve reasons a BUG basis is more attractive.

    I think abundant growth is totally fine to copy with saga. If we cut the ramp for fatal push, lands, more preordains and inquisition we can probably splash aminatou to upgrade chimera.

  6. #106

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I do think history is great if we are willing to have 3 cmc targets. But as said earlier, perhaps copying 3 and 4 mana things is win more. If we only want 1 or 2 mana targets for curve reasons a BUG basis is more attractive.

    I think abundant growth is totally fine to copy with saga. If we cut the ramp for fatal push, lands, more preordains and inquisition we can probably splash aminatou to upgrade chimera.
    Yeah like if you take my suggestion and just straight swap white for black then you get something like this

    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Polluted Delta
    2 Forest
    2 Swamp
    2 Island

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Push
    4 Force
    2 Negation
    2 Abrupt Decay

    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Abundant Growth
    2 Omen or 1 Omen 1 Crumbs
    2 Trial of Ambition
    4 Estrid's Invocation
    1 Binding the Old Gods
    3 ?? (discard?)

    Which I guess is okay, but it's not a definite upgrade. Copying 3 mana things (History) might be arguably win-more, but History is also a relatively solid card by itself if you haven't found your Estrid yet or they counter it etc. One 2/2 zombie is a much slower clock than 2 knights plus the buff, and against e.g. delver if you just play 1 sarcomancy and then they bolt ithe token you have just put a curse of the pierced heart on yourself which doesn't seem great

    The problem with splashing for Animatou is that a 60 card version already has a good ratio of Blinkers/Blinkees with just the 4 Estrid (which already might be 1 too many) so it only makes sense if you're going up to 80 cards, then by having Yorion as a companion you're less interested in doing anything aggressive so Sarcomancy makes less sense as a gameplan (you would rather try to slow things down with Binding the Old Gods etc), overall I'm not convinced that it's a good direction
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-06-2021 at 04:31 AM.

  7. #107

    Re: UW Sagas

    I guess we need to decide on what the broken thing we can do is. Estrids is a powerful banedrifter, but so are uro, and, endurance. I think we need to go relatively deep to not just be bad Bant or stoneblade.

    I think Serra’s sanctum plus classes are the answer. Classes provide a critical density of cheap enchantments for serras sanctum, and provides a bunch of mana sinks for all that extra mana. The current most common enchantment based decks either don’t have enough uses for white mana (enchantress) or enough enchantments (curses) to play 4 like elves does. Classes also means that we should always have a backup enchantment target so we can go deeper on synergies without being punished.

    Theory crafting:

    Paladin Class should be the starting point. It both enables and uses Serra sanctum the best. It is a poor mans version of Gaea’s cradle plus allosaurus shepherd.

    Yorion is another low opportunity cost way to sink a bunch of white mana. Serras sanctum solves the issue of running a 5 drop in a low to the ground deck.

    History of Benalia is better by itself and also is a nice use of extra white mana.

    Legion’s Landing is similar to paladin class in that it is both a good enabler and utilizer of Serra’s sanctum.

    3 Feri or monk class as generic interaction and solves the sarcomancy problem.

    On thin ice is better than plow when it generates mana. Skewed fetches to white to enable it on t1.

    Serra’s sanctum requires a higher land count and wants the deck to have lots of white mana sinks.

    Draft:

    4 Paladin Class
    2 Legion’s Landing
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 On thin Ice
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Omen of the Sea
    3 Trial of Ambition

    4 Estrid’s Invocation
    4 Aminatou
    4 History of Benalia
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation

    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Scrubland
    2 Tundra
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Serra’s Sanctum

    ———
    1 Yorion


    The deck seems promising, being more interactive than enchantress but with more CA than deathblade.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 07-06-2021 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #108

    Re: UW Sagas

    I guess we need to decide on what the broken thing we can do is. Estrids is a powerful banedrifter, but so are uro, and, endurance. I think we need to go relatively deep to not just be bad Bant or stoneblade.
    Endurance is not a "Banedrifter", it's loaming shaman with reach and flash.
    You do need to go "relatively deep" to build a better Uro but I'm already doing that lol (why else play cards like History of Benalia or Omen of the Sea in legacy).
    I think Serra’s sanctum plus classes are the answer. Classes provide a critical density of cheap enchantments for serras sanctum, and provides a bunch of mana sinks for all that extra mana. The current most common enchantment based decks either don’t have enough uses for white mana (enchantress) or enough enchantments (curses) to play 4 like elves does. Classes also means that we should always have a backup enchantment target so we can go deeper on synergies without being punished.

    Theory crafting:

    Paladin Class should be the starting point. It both enables and uses Serra sanctum the best. It is a poor mans version of Gaea’s cradle plus allosaurus shepherd.
    Extremely poor mans version lol
    I think you are overrating the 1st ability on Paladin Class by a lot
    Then I don't think the Glorious Anthem effect is even very good (the deck just doesn't have enough creatures in it and isn't aggressive enough)
    The best enabler for Serras Sanctum is
    1) abundant growth because it's a cheap enchantment that just replaces itself
    2) Wild/Utopia sprawl because its a cheap enchantment that also ramps (so you can successfully cast your expensive cards even in games where you don't have serras sanctum).

    I really don't understand this sudden obsession with Paladin Class

    Yorion is another low opportunity cost way to sink a bunch of white mana. Serras sanctum solves the issue of running a 5 drop in a low to the ground deck.
    What does "low to the ground" even mean here, the list is firmly midrange

    History of Benalia is better by itself and also is a nice use of extra white mana.
    Were there meant to be some in the list

    Legion’s Landing is similar to paladin class in that it is both a good enabler and utilizer of Serra’s sanctum.
    Is it? Paying 3 mana to make a 1/1
    You also can't copy it with Estrid because it's legendary

  9. #109

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Endurance is not a "Banedrifter", it's loaming shaman with reach and flash.
    You do need to go "relatively deep" to build a better Uro but I'm already doing that lol (why else play cards like History of Benalia or Omen of the Sea in legacy).
    In a delver format the 3/4 statline is incredibly relevant.

    Extremely poor mans version lol
    I think you are overrating the 1st ability on Paladin Class by a lot
    ...
    I really don't understand this sudden obsession with Paladin Class
    I like paladin class since by itself it will usually trade up on mana if not on cards, and it both uses and enables Serra’s sanctum well. It is pretty reasonable to expect your blue opponent to draw 1-2 counterspells and you to draw 0-1 serras sanctum. In which case you traded up on mana.

    Utopia sprawl and growth enable Serra’s sanctum well, but it pulls you away from interactive cards and white payoffs.

    What does "low to the ground" even mean here, the list is firmly midrange

    Were there meant to be some in the list

    Is it? Paying 3 mana to make a 1/1
    You also can't copy it with Estrid because it's legendary
    Perhaps legions landing isn’t good enough. But having a critical density of one drop enchantments and white manasinks seems powerful.

  10. #110

    Re: UW Sagas

    I think the maindeck Endurance in control decks pushes Sevinne's Rec out a little bit (and it was already a bit clunky)
    I think I'd rather just play more / cheaper estrid targets

    20 Lands
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Plow
    4 Force of Will
    2 Negation

    4 Abundant Growth
    4 Estrid
    4 Benalia
    1 Detention Sphere
    2 Omen of the Sea
    3 Prismatic Ending

    2 Trail of Crumbs / Omen
    1 ???
    1 Teferi

    I do also want to try omen of the forge as the wincon rather than History but not sure what colours/manabase to use
    edit: im thinking straight jeskai and cut green

    Like this

    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain
    5 Island
    1 Volcanic
    1 Tundra

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Terminus
    2 Force of Negation

    3 Estrids Invocation
    4 Omen of the Sea
    2 Omen of the Forge
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 [FREE SLOT / Wizard Class]

    1 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Jace the Mindsculptor

    2 Snapcaster Mage

    Sideboard
    2 Court of Grace
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Humility
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 RIP
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Deafening Silence
    3 Pyroblast

    Having omen of the forge as additional flash removal is ok (vs ragavan / delver etc), and then with Estrid it becomes both like a 1-sided aether flash or 1 sided sulfuric vortex once you have taken control of the game. Overall I think this is probably a better fit for the strategy than a thing that makes tokens.
    I'm thinking the free slot should be another enchantment just to hedge towards Invocation being as reliable as possible but I'm not exactly sure what it should be. (Otherwise 3rd Prismatic Ending could be ok)
    There are a couple of other almost-viable copy targets (the giants saga, wizard class, sorcerer class, spreading seas, confounding conundrum) but nothing super exciting.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-19-2021 at 03:47 AM.

  11. #111

    Re: UW Sagas

    If you want to go creatureless, should we try court of cunning plus island sanctuary?

    Court plus estrid will mill anyone out no matter in ~2 turns. It also enables our own sevinnes well.

    Sanctuary into court should also kill quite fast. Porphyry nodes can be copied by estrids if the triggers are stacked correctly and is quite good at clearing the way for a t3 court as well.

    It avoids having to use another colour, and is much better vs creatures less decks which could otherwise be problems.

  12. #112

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    If you want to go creatureless, should we try court of cunning plus island sanctuary?

    Court plus estrid will mill anyone out no matter in ~2 turns. It also enables our own sevinnes well.

    Sanctuary into court should also kill quite fast. Porphyry nodes can be copied by estrids if the triggers are stacked correctly and is quite good at clearing the way for a t3 court as well.

    It avoids having to use another colour, and is much better vs creatures less decks which could otherwise be problems.
    Court of Cunning is a liability if your opponent controls a cheap creature, Omen of the Forge is useful if your opponent controls a cheap creature.

    It's nice to think like "oh if you have estrid + court it mills the opponent really fast and enables sevinne" but if you have court undisrupted for 1-2 turns you should be winning that game anyway regardless of what else you have.
    I'd rather focus on stabilizing the game reliably and then win by small incremental advantage rather than play these more all-in cards that completely fall apart if the opponent can stick creatures and you don't have enough removal. (reminder: ragavan has dash)
    I'm not super worried about creatureless decks (in which case the suggestions of island sanctuary and porphyry nodes also don't do anything).
    The extra colour doesn't affect the manabase too badly and also gives some SB cards

    It's possible that the deck could play some monarch card instead of Jace (and I do have monarch cards in the SB of the original list) but overall I don't think that's such a good direction
    One court of cunning could be played main in the 'wizard class' slot too I suppose but idk if it's necessary/correct to go further down the rabbit hole with Sevinne's Reclamation / Porphyry Nodes etc

    edit
    On 2nd thought something like -2 Snapcaster -1 Teferi +2 Spreading Seas +1 Humility might be ok
    - Having extra estrids targets seems good after goldfishing, it might be a better use of that card slot than snap
    - Spreading seas gets an upgrade atm because it can function as 1U destroy Urzas Saga draw a card
    - Humility is also nice atm because not only is it good vs "creature decks" it's also very good vs the most popular variant of control (bant)
    - Humility also has synergy with copying Omen of the Forge because you can always ping down any creature and not worry about dying to 1/1s
    - Cutting snap means there is nothing in the deck that uses the graveyard so the opponent can't get free value off endurance
    - Humility is anti-synergy with snap/creatures
    - Moving humility to the main opens up a SB slot

    from there maybe there are options to trim 1 of the counterbalance or 1 of the jace etc

    20 Land
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords
    2 Negation
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Terminus

    4 Estrids Invocation
    4 Omen of the Sea
    2 Omen of the Forge
    2 Spreading Seas
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Court of Cunning / JTMS
    1 Humility
    1 Detention Sphere

    1 JTMS
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-22-2021 at 06:31 AM.

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