The Adept System (SB)

[FoolofaTook]

The only issue that I have with the Adept system is that it creates a status quo which I think is fairly artificial. Some people have pointed out that the Adepts tend to be clumped in geographic groups that do not represent the Legacy meta as a whole.

I believe this gives us a skewed view of what is effective because the best players on the Source also tend to play each other a lot and so their efforts tend to be directed at defeating a relatively small subset of decks.

When we have surprising results from a remote tournament those results tend to be dismissed as a random event, followed by our local tournaments largely playing what they were playing previously and the status quo is upheld.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong or inherently flawed, just that it does tend to create a more stagnant meta for conversation and development, leading directly to things like CANGD... The source Adepts should be on CANGD most of the time, not just when Threshold (or whatever) has bored them to tears.

Even the really good new decks that emerge, like Dreadstill, ITF and FT, are often just variants of earlier efforts or attempted merges.

Just my opinion.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The current value of the adept system is mainly that it offers encouragement to people to clean up their act and do well in the format (whatever sour grapes some may harbor).

However, if people are really interested in something more substantial, why not have a "Buzz" forum, where every week or two, 5 threads from any of the actual format related forums are posted, selected by a quarterly elected group of 10 or so "super-adepts", with UN Security Council like measure in place to ensure fairness(at least 2 Europeans, 1 Canadian, 1 West Coaster, 1 East Coaster, the rest are fair game, for example).

The point would be to have a forum specifically for people looking for what's new and hot in the legacy format; whether it's an existing archetype under revival, a new deck idea, a format discussion, or buzz about a new card. Letting the subject be controlled by members selected both for their forum activity and playskill would, hopefully, help ensure relevance.

[Whit3 Ghost]

The current value of the adept system is mainly that it offers encouragement to people to clean up their act and do well in the format (whatever sour grapes some may harbor).

However, if people are really interested in something more substantial, why not have a "Buzz" forum, where every week or two, 5 threads from any of the actual format related forums are posted, selected by a quarterly elected group of 10 or so "super-adepts", with UN Security Council like measure in place to ensure fairness(at least 2 Europeans, 1 Canadian, 1 West Coaster, 1 East Coaster, the rest are fair game, for example).

The point would be to have a forum specifically for people looking for what's new and hot in the legacy format; whether it's an existing archetype under revival, a new deck idea, a format discussion, or buzz about a new card. Letting the subject be controlled by members selected both for their forum activity and playskill would, hopefully, help ensure relevance.

I like.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

And to pre-empt a couple questions

A) It's vital that these "Super-adepts" need not be selected from currently existing adepts. Any member is electable.

B) "Super-adepts" should not serve two consecutive quarters; I fear that it'll come to people having to defend themselves if that happens.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think a 'super-adept' system and anything else creating more social classes will only lead to more conflict. The more parts there are, the more friction there is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like the idea too, although every week, even every two weeks is too often. We don't want an excitement burnout like the Adept Q&A section, or to a lesser extent like we see with the Magic Hall of Famers thing. Every two months sounds like plenty of time to see what the new decks are doing and give them a fair run as the "hot new thing".

Although I think it'd be easier to eliminate all current adepts, and have a once-or-twice a year vote on 15 or so people who fulfill the same role as "Adepts" or some other title.

[Getsickanddie]

Internet politics are fucking stupid. I don't care who is or isn't an adept. Let me know when they start issuing adepts paychecks, or grand prix byes.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I like the idea too, although every week, even every two weeks is too often. We don't want an excitement burnout like the Adept Q&A section, or to a lesser extent like we see with the Magic Hall of Famers thing. Every two months sounds like plenty of time to see what the new decks are doing and give them a fair run as the "hot new thing".

Although I think it'd be easier to eliminate all current adepts, and have a once-or-twice a year vote on 15 or so people who fulfill the same role as "Adepts" or some other title.

How about a running tally where a person needs X votes to qualify for a position with a cap at about maybe 30 users?

If forced to go by your position, I would definitely think that a bi-monthly vote would be better.

[FoolofaTook]

Dissing Isaac Asimov is bad, really bad.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

A scheduled election may promote 'campaigning' and quality posts only around election time. Another problem is that I just used the phrase 'election time' describing a possible scenario. Not that I'm discounting forum politics, I just don't want to have to worry about elections in my hobbies.

[Bardo]

How about a running tally where a person needs X votes to qualify for a position with a cap at about maybe 30 users?

If forced to go by your position, I would definitely think that a bi-monthly vote would be better.

That shit is going to be way too much of a pain in the ass to manage and maintain. The return on the investment is going to suck. And the self-moderating "Adept-level" is ripe for abuse and being a right fucking popularity contest where everyone loses.

Of all of the comments that have been posted so far, Spatula's remark that Adept-hood encourages others to tighten their posting habits is the only one I can get behind.

Truly, the only real benefit to being and Adept is the larger PM box. If anyone really wants to be an adept in the current model, just follow the guidelines, and do so consistently.

Generally, to qualify for nomination as a Legacy Adept, a regular poster must possess the following traits:

1. Regular posting and site activity on MTS;
2. A strong understanding of the Legacy format and the evolving metagame;
3. A strong understanding of Magic: the Gathering game theory, mechanics, and rules;
4. Exemplary posting habits, including proper grammar and spelling; clear, articulate presentation of ideas; and respectful treatment of all members;
5. Ideally, though not necessarily required, some form of dedicated service to the format, which can include article writing, dedicated development of new decks, significant optimization of existing archetypes, or organizing/hosting Legacy tournaments in your area.

All of the more recent crop of adepts have followed those guidelines and gotten the +1. If it's important to you, then have at it. If not, it's no one's loss. If the anti-adept thing is rooted in petty egotism, get over yourself.

[Phantom]

I think, if anything, the adept system isn't being used enough. If you're going to separate people for some purpose then let it have a purpose. Right now we tint their names in the hopes that that helps some new users (who probably don't know that that means anything) sift through so many posts, and we have a Adept Q&A. The Q&A is actually useful (or it would be if it were formatted and archived in a usable manner) but should just be the tip of the iceberg. How about when you're an adept you are expected to contribute to the forum in a meaningful way other than simply "quality" posts, which would most likely happen whether they were an adept or not.

What if there were a set of things that were Adepts responsibilities? For example:

- Restarting threads that have run on too long to be meaningful either by writing an opening post or encouraging the proper person to do so (and assisting them)
- Responding to sub par or decks posted by new members in the forums. I know that this can do a great service to the format. By having an Adept respond in a way that is both encouraging and realistic, we can ensure that novices both avoid the awkwardness of not having their thread responded to, and the embarrassment of being told their deck is unequivocally bad.
- Useful threads. I've brought this up many times to deafening silence, but I'll try again. Why isn't the source a better tool for Legacy deck builders and beginners? Why isn't there a section of the forum that is separated from the back and forth blather, and simply contains well organized well maintained threads with:

• Cunning Wish Targets
• Black Sideboard options
• What to name with Cabal Therapy/Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage
• What to know when entering Legacy and common misconceptions about our format
• Monitoring the spoilers of a new set and keeping a post updated with useful information (such as the
• possible impact of good cards) so we don't have to dig through 10 pages of a spoiler thread to keep up.
• etc.

-Coming up with questions both for the adept Q&A and for the community board.
Monitoring the spoilers of a new set and keeping


Like I said, if Adept is supposed to mean something, let's have it mean something or else just banish it and move on. Hell, the admins and mods do a lot of work to make the site better, why not the adepts?


As for the selection of Adepts, I have no real beef except that I don't see why play skill has anything to do with it. That's like choosing a president by height. These people are expected to contribute to the site and Legacy, why not choose them by their contributions to the site and Legacy?

[Atwa]

I am seeing people complaining about the adepthood, but I can't see why they would.

For all the people who are calling: "unfair", let me ask you, do you miss something in this site? Do you really want to raise this discussion because you can't see a single subforum?

I think the way the adepthood is arranged now is alreadt way better than the way it was 2 years ago. If people would complain then that the adept were simply a group of friends, they would be right. However, this is alreasy no longer the case. In the last 2 years, there have alreasy been chosen new adepts, simply because of their effort put into this site and the role they play in Legacy in general.

Can someone please tell me why newer adepts like Eladriel or Nihil don't deserve their status? In the old days, there were even adepts who weren't even active anymore. This alreasy got cleared op, stripping people like Teeniebopper from their status.

I've seen a lot of these kind of good changes in the last couple of years, cleaning up the adepts, adding new adept, the acceptance of non-USA tournament data for the DTB forum. There already have been a lot positive changes to this site lately.

I dsay we leave the adept status they way it is. I know for me I don't qualify for the adepthood, however I am fully aware of that fact and I don't complain about it. I am also fully opposed to the idea of electing the adepts, so far I've always understood why certain people received their status. Turning it in an ellection doesn't mean anything, it's just a populairity contest.

I do like the idea of Spat, were the adepts/mods could make a monthy overview of what happened in the format. Highlighting promesing decks, general news, that kind of thing. However, I do not see the need for another group of people for that purpose, I think we have enough adepts as it is who can contribute to such a thing.

[Jaiminho]

- Useful threads. I've brought this up many times to deafening silence, but I'll try again. Why isn't the source a better tool for Legacy deck builders and beginners? Why isn't there a section of the forum that is separated from the back and forth blather, and simply contains well organized well maintained threads with:
Cunning Wish Targets
Black Sideboard options
What to name with Cabal Therapy/Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage
What to know when entering Legacy and common misconceptions about our format
...etc.

These threads have failed in the past. Questions such as "What do I name with Therapy/Needle/Mage?" or "What should I have in my wishboard?" are simply too vague. It requires so many variables, while the most shallow of them are what is being played by the player and what is being played by the opponent. Hell, even the thread about casting Grip on Top or on CB ended as being 4 pages long with lots of different opinions and off topic talk.

[Phantom]

These threads have failed in the past. Questions such as "What do I name with Therapy/Needle/Mage?" or "What should I have in my wishboard?" are simply too vague. It requires so many variables, while the most shallow of them are what is being played by the player and what is being played by the opponent. Hell, even the thread about casting Grip on Top or on CB ended as being 4 pages long with lots of different opinions and off topic talk.

Well, the sideboard/wishboard threads would simply contain viable options, not "play these" demands. The reason these threads have failed in the past (at least in my opinion) is that they become useless due to lack of upkeep and simply dropping off the front page. Both of these can easily be solved.

Therapy/Needle/Mage threads, while more problematic, are still useful. We would just be clear that the matters are not black and white. Something like "Naming High Tide with your first Mage against Solidarity" while not always correct is very useful to many players.

Hell, a thread explaining the dilemma of what to hit with your Grip could make a good post. The key is that these are not back and forth's with the Legacy community (we already have that). These are concentrated help.

[Michael Keller]

Please, dear God, stop quoting movies in attempt to get a point across. Especially those who are so cliche it's almost embarassing to read lol.

Perhaps some people are more creative in the way they try to generate thought instead of mindlessly attacking each other to try and win a debate. If that doesn't fit to your liking, I'm sorry. No one else is complaining and that's not the point here. If it bothers you that much, you know where to find me Colin.

There will likely be no definitive action taken to sustain the current system and how it works. It doesn't matter anyway, because there are a countless number of folks who don't even know how to "apply" to be one even if they wanted to. The current system seems dysfunctional on paper (or screen) mainly due to the word-of-mouth secrecy to determine who becomes one and who doesn't rather than simply asking someone who should ultimately have veto power, or as stated recently, "Super Adepts" who ultimately should decide who becomes one and who doesn't. If someone intelligent enough wants to assume the role of Adept, do they really have a voice in the matter? Even so, what are the benefits (seriously) for future seekers to achieve this title? Does it really matter?

I really think this needs to stay open for intelligent discussion because this seems to be a valid point regarding a blatantly obvious characteristic of the entire site and all who frequent or visit.

[Skeggi]

Meh. I don't care. If they rename Adept to Infamous Bear, then sign me up.

Which raises another question: is it the bear who is infamous, or is it the assasin? I always thought it was the assasin, but apparently you see it the other way around

On-topic:

I think the adept system is a good one, however currently mostly used in the Q&A thread; perhaps we can find more tools to employ their knowledgebase.

People who look up to them and think "why are they being put upon a pedestal" should get their stick out of their ass and see what they can actually learn from these people. You don't have to come to theSource, so if you don't like the system here, go to any other random forum dedicated to Legacy.

I like the way this site is modded, and the Adept system is part of this engine. Having a site with Adepts doesn't immediately mean the other users talk out of their asses.

Basically what I'm saying: I like the Adept system with color code and everything.

Even more on topic:

Yes, I'd like to see more European people become adepts, like Adan or Elficidium. A yearly vote doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[Belgareth]

Personally, I'd love to get rid of the titles and change all user names to dark blue, even the mods/admins. I think it would be a worthwhile experiment: let the strength of every poster's idea be judged on its own merit and not subtely influenced by being teal, dark blue, red or whatever color the mod names are (purple/brown = burple?). I would totally be down for that.

(Note that I don't think permissions should change, mods could still close/delete threads, warn users, etc., adepts could still post in the LA Lounge, but you couldn't rest on your laurels, so to speak, at least publicly.)

I was about to propose this idea to the other mods last night, then sorta forgot. What does everyone else think?

This seems sensible.
Personally I judge the quality of the post on it's content, not on who posted it.
Certainly it's nice to recognise the consistently good posters (Nihil, taco, Freund come to mind), but the colour of a title should not mean people should assume that person knows more.

Certain adepts even go about making an ass of themselves on occasions by blowing off peoples ideas as inferior (no not the people in new decks forums trying to get elves into dtb ;) ).
The source works well as it is , and is probably one of the best run sites I've seen as long as you can get past the whole Syracuse mens club thing that sometimes becomes apparent (but even then, who cares, the guys are skilled players and good friends so if they want to bitch at each others decks occasionally it's a small price to pay for such a good site).

The best part of the source is that it's willing to adapt and evolve to the needs of the community (The dtb forum changes were very well handled).

I'd love to see the adepts do more, just answering a few questions every so often isn't enough.
Primers , tournaments and other such things would help (Yes some of them do these things already).
Also if the adept title is supposed to be monitored on the quality of posting, it should probably be reviewed every so often ?
I don't have a problem with anyone having a title (be it coloured or not), but I could understand some people seeing inconsistency with who is made adept.

[AngryTroll]

I like the system the way it is. As stated, the simple color code should make things slightly easier on new members and draws attention to posts by people that are supposed to know what they are talking about. On the other hand, I certainly don't just look at name color; some Adepts get skipped over, and I search out posts made by many of the regular users.

While I do feel that the Adepts are a little...clumpy, I can name three NorthWest Adepts off of the top of my head (Bardo, Frogboy, and Pinder), and Godzilla (if he still exists?) gets the fancy red color.

Adepthood does generally encourage well thought out and composed posts, so for that reason alone is probably worth leaving in place. I am not sure how many people have become disenchanted with the prospect of a shiny new name color and no longer care if there posting habits lead them to Adepthood, though. The general feeling of resentment clearly displayed in this thread makes that pretty obvious.

As mentioned, I think scheduled votes would lead to "campaigning" at certain times. Leaving it always open means that people should try all the time.

I think that the Adept System should be left the way that it is. In general, I'm pretty happy with the people selected for Adept-ship, and I have been pleased to see some of the newer members elevated to that status. I can name a handful of members off of the top of my head that I think deserve the status, but I also don't read every post written in every thread here; I can't judge how well every member fulfills every requirement.

Now, on the other hand, if it was Infamous Bear or Infamous Assassin status, I'd throw down. I am pretty sure I could take Bardo or Pinder in a fight.

[Shugyosha]

I just think there are too many adepts. There are some adepts who are exactly doing what they should: Post a lot with a high value for the format and the community. But as I saw in the Adept Q&A forum there are also adepts who don't meet the high standard I'm expecting from the adepts.

There should be a small group of adepts who see the adept status as duty not as privilege. This group existed and still exists now as the core of the adepts but there are just too many other adepts who are not that eloquent, well informed and calm.

Can people actually loose adept status? For example if they become idle for a year or so?