Holy crap, you were sbing in Savannah for every matchup before your newer build. Now you sb a Tundra for every matchup! I love it I really do.
Why arent you just maindecking it?!
Now playing real formats.
One change of note:
-3 Ghastly Demise
+3 Smother
It could just be a MWS fluke, but I'm sick of not being able to hit Black things (especially if they end up wearing Jittes). Smother hits pretty much every relevant creature in Legacy and isn't dependent on the graveyard (it's also easier to hit a Grunt with Smother): that's great. As for the fatties, well... the deck can deal, if it must. At least they're relatively few and far between; unfortunately, all too many of them have a black in their casting cost, so even Ghastly Demise wasn't working out so well. Two-mana removal is kind of iffy, but at least it's not invalidated by a Chalice at one--speaking of which, the FS matchup should be easier with Smother.
Other than that, I'm really waiting for a full Lorwyn spoiler: the prospect of new Incarnations as well as creatures with Evoke is quite exciting for this deck. Even Shriekmaw is giving me thoughts (but I don't think it'll fit, in the end).
Well, there are a few reasons:Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
1.) It's part of a testing slot: I'm not sure if I want to run Crime/Punishment over EE, but if I do, it seems a waste not to have a source of white mana.
2.) I only side it in for matchups where Wasteland or Coliseum is less relevant; while one or the other will often be less good than Tundra, seldom will both be. Accordingly, it's hard to say what configuration is better. Overall, I'm not all that happy with Coliseum, but I'm also not convinced that there's anything that can do its job much better. It's great for pumping Tog, cycling through the deck, or recurring dredgers and so on, but I've found that I seldom need that more than the mana. Anyway...
3.) Who says I'm sideboarding ideally?
Small update: I've (finally) given up completely on Energy Field in the sideboard. It was cool and unexpected, but so very, very janky.
It was all right versus Ichorid and Burn, but in the end I had to ask if I was really targetting the right matchups. With Breakfast on the rise, I suspect that graveyard hate would serve me better. Although, to be fair, it was always amazing when an opponent played Leyline against me and I busted out my Energy Field.
In any case, I've replaced them with Extirpate for the simple reason (at the moment) that Leyline has a large mana/mulligan investment and is susceptible to bounce (unless you're holding counters) and enchantment hate, whereas Extirpate does its own thing all on its own. It can be useful against burn, most combo, and even Ichorid. It won't makes these matches one-sided for TarmoTog, but it will certainly go a fair way toward easing them, and that's important. Auto-losses suck.
I've still got my fingers crossed for Evoke and the incarnations, even though I suspect that they won't quite work/work well enough with the deck's concept.
Wow, Goaswerfraiejen. You've put a lot of work into this deck since I last checked. :)
Here's my latest U/G/x project:
Counter-Top GAT
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Psychatog
2 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard: Some combo of Duress, Deed, Darkblast (to win 'Goyf wars), Plagues--depending on the metagame.
The numbers are still up in the air, esp the Smother, Jitte slots which can be many things.
Goaswerfraiejen (man that's a tough name to spell...), I really like the list you posted on the previous page except for some minor details.
First of all, have you considered dropping serum visions for ponder once Lorwyn is legal? I think it would be a great switch to make in...pretty much every deck that runs serum visions. Especially here, though because you can peek at your top three, and if you don't like them just replace the draw with a dredge and mill them all away. This is especially great for if you, say, want to draw a deed but can settle for darkblast.
Second, I'm not loving mana leak. This deck seems just as mana-intensive as threshold, even more so due to the recursion. Mana leak, as a control tool, seems weak to me. I would LOVE to suggest putting cabal therapy in their slot as more anti-combo and as a great way to sacrifice witness for more recursion. However, that makes the deck a tad low on blue cards for FoW. Have you tested that option, though?
Nice work with the demise-->smother, though. I definitely think smother is underrated, and extremely versatile in the format right now. So, let me know what you think.
Agreed. So long as Ponder is a sorcery, it's definitely replacing Serum Visions. If it's an instant, the call would be much tougher--but it looks pretty steady at sorcery-speed, so I suspect it'll stay that way. Because drawing the card comes after the option to shuffle, it's just that much better.
You've hit on a tough issue, one that I've been mulling over for some time now. Mana Leak is definitely better than Daze (and it's more playable in here than Counterspell), but it's not all that amazing, either. Cabal Therapy is a strong contendor for the slot, but I've not yet tested it. Instead, I've been enthralled by Extirpate, and have been testing it in Mana Leak's stead recently. The problem with that, of course, is that it's that much better when coupled with Mana Leak, since fewer threats hit the table. Cabal Therapy is definitely worth trying, and it's next on my testing list. As you said, though, it basically means going down to sixteen (seventeen, but you almost never want to remove Wonder) Force sources, including other Forces. And that's sort of sketchy--although it does work.Second, I'm not loving mana leak. This deck seems just as mana-intensive as threshold, even more so due to the recursion. Mana leak, as a control tool, seems weak to me. I would LOVE to suggest putting cabal therapy in their slot as more anti-combo and as a great way to sacrifice witness for more recursion. However, that makes the deck a tad low on blue cards for FoW. Have you tested that option, though?
The other interesting option coming from Lorwyn is "Broken Ambitions:"
Broken Ambitions XU
Instant (common)
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X.
Clash with an opponent. If you win, that spell’s controller puts the top four cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost)
It suffers from the same problem as Mana Leak (being mana intensive when you've got a low mana count), but it's also a win-win: either you win (and you've got some high casting costs in the deck) and your opponent loses some goodies, or your opponent wins and your toolbox grows. Plus, it feeds Force. I'll be testing it as soon as it comes out, but really it's probably going to depend on whether the Clash only happens upon successful resolution/countering, or if it happens regardless. Paying U for toolbox (graveyard) access could prove very useful... perhaps even more so than a cantrip? Hard to say; cutting a cantrip would leave more disruption slots, however, which would really make for a strong disruptive suite. I suspect it won't work out the way I hope it will, but it's well worth keeping in mind because it could really push things over the top if it can be made to work out.
Broken Ambitions is useless. If you win the clash, it mills your opponent ("that spell's controller"), and milling is a bad thing unless you plan on winning by decking; if you lose, nothing happens. Condescend would be strictly better than that.
My first candidate for replacing Mana Leak would be Spell Snare; keep in mind, however, that it's the kind of card that can be awesome or terrible depending on your metagame.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Damn, looks like I misread Broken Ambitions. Thought the loser milled.Never mind that, then.
Yeah, but unfortunately condescend has the same problem in that it requires a fair bit of untapped mana. Spell snare I don't see as being very good, especially since smother already limits your ability to answer different CC's (does that even matter??).
Oh and by the way, if you drop the mana leaks for therapies you'll still have 18 blue cards, since tog counts. But you're right, wonder really shouldn't be pitched. If 18 still seems too low, I could see dropping the mana leaks for 3 stifle (stifle a fetch, go balls-to-the-walls, gg) and then drop a smother for one cabal therapy. That way you can tutor for the therapy if you need to (like, in order to pump tog to lethal and know there isn't a swords looming).
I did try Stifle for a time, but I wasn't as impressed--usually, I wanted a real counterspell just as much. Of course, the MWS "metagame" is... well, you know how it is.
You're right though, I forgot to count 'Tog. While 15/16 is do-able, 17/18 is a much, much better number. I've been trying the Cabal Therapies, and I rather like them, actually. More testing will tell, but right now I'm really sold on them. I'm also actually quite intrigued by the possibility of running 3 Stifle and 1 Therapy in the maindeck... that seems like it has some savage potential. I'll be trying that as well.
Thanks very much for the input.
EDIT 2: Yeah, so I just tried the split that you suggested, and I'm loving it. I think it's taking the deck up a notch. The other thing is that, with Therapy, it's probably worth reverting back to 4 Brainstorm and 3 Serum Visions (until Ponder comes out, at which point I'll need to rethink things). It also allows more freedom in the sideboard, which is getting scary: I basically left 1 Stifle in and added 1 Smother (just in case) and 2 Therapies. It looks very, very sexy, let me tell you.
Of course, I've only played one game with that configuration so far (against Landstill), but I love it.
Ok, here's the list I'm going to test when I get a chance.
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Basics (one of each)
1 Cephalid coliseum
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Psychatog
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
3 Smother
2 Stifle
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the loam
1 Cabal therapy
Seems kinda janky with all those 1 and 2-ofs, but we'll see how it runs.
I've been testing with the changes that I've been raving about, Solpugid, and they're really working out quite well. The one thing that I've noticed, however, is that taking out a Smother to fit the Stifle/Therapy combination has put a lot more pressure on Darkblast (a problem that you've avoided in your own testing list by cutting elsewhere). Where once before it was good enough for the random creaturedeath.slot, I'm not convinced that its efficacy hasn't been compromised. Consequently, I've been wondering if it might not be worth replacing it with Stinkweed Imp once more. The Imp has obvious drawbacks (like attracting StP and other removal--which can certainly be a bonus), and he dredges for much more (which can go either way, really, but it's usually good), and he also lacks the luxury of targeting--on the other hand, he can deal with real problems that even Smother can't touch, and that could just prove to be the necessary complement to Smother. I'm going to be testing him again in the next few days. For reference, my own testing list is currently as follows:
2 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
1 Forest
1 Swamo
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions (Ponder)
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
3 Stifle
1 Life from the loam
1 Cabal Therapy
The differences from your own are very minor, but it'll allow us to test the two most likely configurations for the deck in my mind.
Just to quickly explain my reasoning for not going with your list:
Why do you need two togs? Barring swords, a single tog is all you need. You never really want more than one in play unless they have 1 blocker and you need to swing for lethal, but...goyf can do that just fine.
The other thing is the 3 visions/ponders. With only 17 lands I can see this deck getting mana screwed frequently, so I believe 8 cantrips to be necessity. They also do a great job of getting you to the cards you need when you need them (deed and FoW come to mind).
Finally, I'm not big on the imp. Not only is he a turn slower, but he does nothing to help your aggro-plan. That is, when you're going all out early on (like you mentioned you plan to do), smother clears blockers (like opposing goyfs) that would kill off your gooses or mongrels. Imp just comes into play and dares your opponent to attack. That's not proactive enough for a deck which doesn't NEED that much dredge. Loam does just fine, I think.
My problem with testing right now is that I'm studying abroad, so I don't have my cards, and my MWS isn't working. I ran the auto-update, but I can't actually play with the newer cards I put into decks. Any ideas what's up?
Some food for thoughts...
#1
The lone Cabal Theraphy. How often have it become useful? I mean, intuition looking for a cabal theraphy seems week to me for some reason.
#2
The basics. I not so sure on this one, but have the 3 basics saved you life that often? I can understand the forest, for loam, maybe the island as well, but the swamp doesnt seem needed to me.
#3
Any particular reasont to run Serum Visions above Portent? Portent is superior imo, mostly because it let you choose what card you draw, not just giving you a blind card. Also, it can be used offensively. Also, maybe you should take a look at the new one, Think (U, sorcery, rearrange top 3, draw a card).
Well, my time is out, I may have some more questions, ill get back to you.
- Mordenkain
This is debatable depending on how big my boobs feel in the morning.
I haven't messed around with Magic in a while as I've been extremely busy working 60 hours a week and getting drunk with friends. However, I've been patrolling the boards the past few days. By doing this, I reaquainted myself with the current metagame. It seems as though Threshold is at an all-time high. Goyf.dec seems to be everywhere. Goblins looks like it is on the decline... Threshold/r has a favorable matchup, the other Thresh versions are posting relatively 50/50 matchups or better vs Goblins, while combo continues to be on the rise. Along with Belcher and TES, it seems like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid are also huge now.
It is my opinion that DAT is the best deck in this current metagame. It has a favorable matchup against the Threshold "mirror," a much stronger combo matchup than slower board control like Landstill, while seemingly strong matchups against the entire rest of the field.
It also seems as though land destruction strategies are on the decline. Non-recurring land destruction is usually bad vs Thresh due to the amount of cantrips and, as I said, it seems like Goblins is on the decline anyway. The U/G Thresh list utilizes some mana denial but I don't really think that is any reason why DAT cannot become a 4c deck. The deck can run a basic Forest and Island to play the majority of its spells along with a cantrip/Loam engine to easily allow it to run a 4c manabase.
Below is the current decklist that I spent the last few days tweaking. While I may have only spent a few days on the current list, keep in mind that I've been playing and tweaking DAT off and on since October 2006, so I'm not new to this archtype.
U/G/b/w DAT
Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
First of all, I'd like to justify my reasoning for the fourth color splash. As I mentioned above, it really is much less of a strain on the manabase than one may think. The deck runs 2 basic lands, 8 cantrips, and the Loam engine. This in itself will typically keep the manabase running smoothly. Additionally, the deck is only splashing white for 3 maindeck spells and black for 5 maindeck spells. Again, I am under the impression that land destruction is not nearly as much of a pressure in the current metagame as it used before Future Sight.
By splashing white, the deck gains access to the best spot removal in the format. While Ghastly Demise and Smother aren't necessarily bad replacements, they still do not compare to StP. My biggest concern, with a lack of StP, was the inability to answer a resolved Sutured Ghoul (which seems to be the most popular win condition for Cephalid Breakfast). It still answers a first turn Lackey, for the occasional Goblin matchup that this deck will have to play against from time to time. It's not only strong against Goyf like Smother is but it also answers randomness like Exalted Angel. The other reason for splashing white, which is almost as important if not more important, IMO, is for Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg is insane vs combo, shutting down just about every currently competitive combo deck that I can think of. Not only that, it's also nuts vs midrange decks like Landstill. I only included 3 in my sideboard because of its Legendary status. 3 should be plenty considering that I have additional combo and control hate cards between my sideboard and maindeck already.
I originally had 4 StP's in the maindeck and decided to cut 1 for a Darkblast. Basically, Darkblast and StP do the same thing to a first turn Lackey. The reason I decided to split them up and run a single Darkblast is because it is a tutorable and recurrable way for my Goyfs to win the Goyf vs Goyf war, which I'm sure is going to occur far often than it should.
As far as the manabase goes, this deck needs every bit of those 19 lands. This deck isn't Threshold... it really cannot afford to run the same amount of lands as Threshold. Not only does this deck run 4 less cantrips, it also runs higher cc spells. Yes, it has Loam to help the deck curve out higher. That's why I only run 19 lands instead of 22+. The deck needs to hit 2U to cast Intuition first before Loam even comes online. It also needs enough mana to be able to play and cast Deed when it doesn't have the Loam engine set up. My list is also 4c, so running only 17 lands would be nuts. The other thing to keep in mind is that this deck runs a couple of lands that don't produce colored mana. The most noticeable difference in my manabase is the Academy Ruins. It's very subtle but it's an extremely solid addition. I'm not a fan of Witness in this deck... 2G, 1GG, 1BG, X repeatedly just seems so slow for this deck, and very unecessary. With Ruins + EE, the deck has access to (addtional) recurrable removal if necessary. It also allows the deck to recur Tormod's Crypt (and even Pithing Needle in certain situations) if necessary. Ruins isn't always going to be a card you want to tutor for with Intuition but it's there if you need it, and it's not going to be dead since it still taps for mana. It's just a subtle addition and thusly I don't run a huge toolbox.
The 4c manabase makes EE a little better by allowing the deck to blow up 4cc stuff if necessary. 3 Deed 1 EE is a really nice combination, especially with the tutorable Ruins. 4 spot removal spells and 4 mass removal spells maindeck feels like a really strong blend.
I'm running Portent over Serum Visions and Ponder. I like how Portent screws my opponents topdecks. I usually don't care in most decks that I play with cantrips. In this deck, though, I find myself reaching the mid-late game quite often, where Portent can keep my opponent off of key spells with which to seal the game or recover with. Not only that, more often than not I don't need to rearrange my top cards anyway since I'm usually dredging them with Loam and/or using Coliseum to create card quality + card advantage anyway. The cantrips main purpose is to strengthen my early game. Later on, I use a better card quality engine in Coliseum so I might as well use half of those cantrips aggressively. It also draws me into Forces and Dazes early to further strengthen my early game.
I upped the Dazes to 4 to strengthen my early game even further. Getting set back a land usually isn't a problem since this deck still utilizes many Thresh-like tempo elements in cheap beaters, cheap cantrip, and cheap removal during the early game. It sometimes hurts to be set back a turn for casting Intuition, but generally it doesn't matter. Since my mid-late game is so strong, the early game was the only thing that really needed additional oomph IMO.
I decided to revert back to the 4/4/2 Goose/Goyf/Tog configuration. I know that I was a supporter of the Togless Mongrel version for a while, but I found that the 12 aggro pieces weren't really needed. I often found myself putting a few beaters on the table only to draw into a Deed. I normally only cast Tog as a finisher... occasionally I'll cast him if I need to pitch a Genesis or Wonder and I don't have a Coliseum (or Threshold), or I'll cast him if he's the only creature I have and I need a blocker. Otherwise, I simply use Goose and Goyf as my creatures. Relying on 8 for early aggression and defense allows me to Deed more effectively in limited testing. Not only that, but I free'd up 2 spaces. I love how the deck can transition from aggro/control to board/control to combo with the way my decklist is setup. The 4/4/2 gives me a reminiscent feel of the old control Thresh versions that ran 4 Goose 4 Bear 2 Enforcer, with the 2 Enforcers serving a similar role as the Togs do here... a finisher. I know that you, Solpugid, will question why I run 2 Togs instead of 1. The reason is simple... I don't plan on trying to tutor into Tog with Intuition. I plan on drawing into him and casting him ftw or dredging into him and recurring him ftw. I have quite a few Intuition targets that seem more important than grabbing Tog with Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis being the most important; Wonder and Wasteland are also important, with Ruins/EE being solid tutor targets. Occasionally I'll grab Tog but not often enough for me to want to run only 1.
As far as my sideboard goes, it's obviously going to vary per metagame, and it's also just something thrown together not only for now, but also based on personal preference. Stifle is there for Goblins, combo, and miscellaneous. Krosan Grip is there for decks with problematic artifacts/enchantments that I want a direct unanswerable answer to... like Thresh with Counterbalance. Extirpate is great against opposing control/card advantage decks like opposing Loam decks, Survival, Landstill, etc. It's also great vs decks with few win conditions, like the decks mentioned, as well as decks like Threshold (block Goyf with Goyf and Darkblast or Deed Goyf, Extirpate, lol...). I think Extirpate is a highly underated card at the moment. I also think it's strong against C Breakfast and Ichorid, despite the naysayers that say it sucks vs C Breakfast (D Returns, anyone?). The lone Crypt is tutorable and recurable with Intuition/Loam/Ruins and compliments the Extirpate, effectively giving the deck 4 graveyard hate spells. The Needles are just versatile answers to all sorts of randomess.
The lack of Duress (or Cabal Therapy) may potentially be an eyesore. I don't really think either is needed to be honest. The deck has sufficient control options between the maindeck and sideboard as it is... I don't think Duress or Cabal Therapy is really necessary. However, the lack of Duress looks like such an eyesore to me on paper. Maybe one day it will find it's way back into my deck.
Yea, I know that was lengthy. Yea, I know that most of that was pretty much a repeat of what has already been said. Yea, I know the rest is probably common sense. Whatever. I think that decklist is amazing... thoughts?
I've been doing some light testing of this on Apprentice, and it appears to be working for me, I may paper it up for some tournaments.
ow that we've got a full Lorwyn spoiler (and that some replies have piled up), I feel comfortable replying to the last few posts and throwing out a couple of new cards for examination. First, the posts:
I definitely don't particularly want more than one in play, but I also want to be able to pitch one to Force of Will with a little impunity. I've felt very comfortable running two this last while since it acts as a fourth Mongrel (only more dangerous if necessary) or FoW fodder. I've noticed that only seldom does Tog pop up to win the game all on its own (that’s what Gigapede does!)--it often pops up to stall the game, however (even opposing Tarmogoyf tend to be reluctant to swing into it, and it generally forces your opponent to keep blockers). While it seldom attacks for very much more than one to three damage (you have to remember that using your graveyard can minimize your own creatures), it really has a huge impact on the field and on the way that your opponent plays. In the past, one was definitely enough for this; I always ran into the problem of pitching it to FoW, though, and having two makes this a much easier decision, in my opinion. I'd be interested to know if, say, the extra cantrip in a Tog slot makes its presence felt as much.
Could be. At first, the split was a temporary measure, but it's never really been fixed since. I have noticed, however, that the few games that are lost tend to be due to some form mana problems (usually when facing something with inordinate amounts of destruction, like Pox). Another cantrip would certainly increase consistency, and Ponder is an excellent contender. It's worth exploring again—the question, as always, is where to fit it in.The other thing is the 3 visions/ponders. With only 17 lands I can see this deck getting mana screwed frequently, so I believe 8 cantrips to be necessity. They also do a great job of getting you to the cards you need when you need them (deed and FoW come to mind).
Two turns slower, you mean.Finally, I'm not big on the imp. Not only is he a turn slower, but he does nothing to help your aggro-plan. That is, when you're going all out early on (like you mentioned you plan to do), smother clears blockers (like opposing goyfs) that would kill off your gooses or mongrels. Imp just comes into play and dares your opponent to attack. That's not proactive enough for a deck which doesn't NEED that much dredge. Loam does just fine, I think.
Sorry, not a clue. Maybe you need to delete (un-install) and re-install it?My problem with testing right now is that I'm studying abroad, so I don't have my cards, and my MWS isn't working. I ran the auto-update, but I can't actually play with the newer cards I put into decks. Any ideas what's up?
I did like it, but more in the early game--and it's obviously inconsistent. I guess that the larger issue is whether to run 3x Cabal Therapy maindeck, or 3x Stifle. I've reverted back to Stifle with Therapy in the board for the moment, but it's something that's become much more important now that Lorwyn has revealed Thoughtseize. I suspect that Cabal Therapy will prove more important for this deck due to its Flashback cost, but I'm still unsure as to the card's role in the deck. It’s been very strong in the maindeck, certainly. Tough decision, but it’s basically just between Therapy and Stifle. The Flashback makes Therapy more desirable than Thoughtseize, I think, but more on that later.
I'd feel very uncomfortable without the basic lands--all three of them. The manabase is basically pretty borderline as it is, but losing the basics would open me up to far too much hate, I think. While mana hate is less prevalent than it once was in the format, UG Threshold seems to have risen in Goblins’ place, and weakening your manabase could have a large effect on your matchup, since you have to match Threshold in the early game, until you can overpower it. Likewise, Goblins seems poised for a black-based comeback, and that too has me worried about the manabase.#2
The basics. I not so sure on this one, but have the 3 basics saved you life that often? I can understand the forest, for loam, maybe the island as well, but the swamp doesn’t seem needed to me.
Portent didn't draw me the card on my turn, which is what I want and need--especially if it’s to complement a borderline manabase and increase its consistency. In any case, the point is irrelevant now, since I'll be switching to Ponder.#3
Any particular reasont to run Serum Visions above Portent? Portent is superior imo, mostly because it let you choose what card you draw, not just giving you a blind card. Also, it can be used offensively. Also, maybe you should take a look at the new one, Think (U, sorcery, rearrange top 3, draw a card).
Hanni - I've been very interested by just how similar our lists are; I’ve been considering trying to splash white for StP and Teeg for some time now, and I must say that I do like your version. It's certainly something that I need to consider more closely. I do have some concerns with your list (more specifically, about Daze’s utility, lack of !Gigapede! ( :wink ), and the weaker creature-base), but they’re not significant. What I especially enjoy is how you’ve brought in Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives and worked them into the white splash—very nice. Of course, it’s very reliant on Loam and being able to wait a turn, but I like it a lot. I think that if you go with a minor white splash, it makes more sense than Eternal Witness. I’m not sure that it’s worth porting to strict BUG, however, since EE becomes much less effective, and Witness is still an easier recursion engine (besides, you can usually use Witness to cut down on what you fetch with Intuition). Needless to say, I’m very interested.
Actually, the biggest question that your decklist raises for me is the effectiveness of the Mongrels in my own: it’s something that needs to be looked at more closely. To do so, I’ll be testing something very like what you’ve posted for the next couple of days, to get a feel for how the deck works with the reduced aggression and increased control. Here’s what I propose to test:
Lands (19)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
Creatures (13)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard (15)
4 Extirpate
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
Now, let’s look at some Lorwyn cards, shall we?
Ponder – Replaces Serum Visions, no questions asked.
Profane Command—I could see this working out, but I think that the deck lacks the room for it.
Shriekmaw—Has potential, but too limited in scope. If there were room, it might work as a one-of. But there isn’t room.
Thoughtseize—Great card, too expensive. Besides, Cabal Therapy is probably better for us, given that we can recur it (and mongeese) fairly easily. All we need the disruption for is against combo; creature-based win conditions are pretty easy for this deck to handle, most of the time.
Bramble Horns—I could see this working out pretty well, but I don’t see where it would fit in. I’ll keep it on my list for eventual testing, though.
Eyes of the Wisent (Wisened!)—I could see this working too, but I can only see it improving matchups that are already pretty good. Plus, there’s no real room for it.
Lignify—Since I was considering Pongify, this could certainly work. Worth keeping in mind, I suppose.
I must admit that the list looks extremely darn solid to me. I like the constant ratio of 3-ofs and 4-ofs and a nice tool box of 1-ofs for intuition.
What can I say about this list else. Did I mention it was a solid list? I'll look forward to see som results on how this fares at a tourny. Incredible devotion btw on the deck. Even after the deck had fallen to page god-knows-what then you still tested the deck. I respect that, thats the real spirit.
All the best and good luck.
- Mordenkain
This is debatable depending on how big my boobs feel in the morning.
I really don't think that 1 EE and 1 ruins are worth the slots in this deck. There are at least two card splits you'll tutor with intuition before that group, and it somewhat forces you into a fourth color, which I think might be a mistake. The manabase just seems so...screwable. If you were to keep all four colors, drop the wasteland for another trop. Wasteland never seemed very good in here to me, because of how slow the recursion is AND how mana-hungry the deck is.
No mongrels is interesting, though. I suppose you do have enough beaters that you could safely do this, though it would drastically change the way the deck is played. Instead of aggro-->control it would be control-->alpha strike, I guess. If you really have concerns about creatures that can't be handled by smother, then drop in a few vedalken shackles. I've been running one in my threshold build, maindeck, and it's great against the randomness you'll face, but forces you into a more control-role. That's fine, if that's where the deck is headed.
Lorwyn doesn't seem to add much to the deck past ponder. All the other options are either too situational or too expensive. But eh, maybe I'm wrong.
I've been testing it for a while now, but I can't say that I actually like it. Part of that, I think, is that it doesn't suit my preferred playstyle (predominantly aggro). The other part is that I've been having trouble getting the white mana for StP when I need it without exposing myself (either to manabase hate or screwing with the coloured requirements in my hand). The other problem I've been having is with Academy Ruins; it doesn't produce any colour, and recurring EE hasn't been stellar on its own. It creates a larger weakness in the deck than it shores up. It's a cool idea, but I can't really justify it to myself without maindecking some other cheap artifacts (like Jitte, for example), at which point it looks like a very cool but very different deck. I'm not gonna lie: a lot of my problem is simply that I don't feel as comfortable with that fourth colour and the change in role assignment. One of my favourite features of the 3-colour version was its ability to switch gears so quickly and so effectively, which is something that the fourth colour version has abandoned.
Thanks for the kind words.Incredible devotion btw on the deck. Even after the deck had fallen to page god-knows-what then you still tested the deck. I respect that, thats the real spirit.
All the best and good luck.
As I said above, I'm agreeing on the Ruins, white, and EE. As for Wasteland, well... I've got to confess that I'm partial to it. It's mostly just a tutorable piece, and by no means should anyone playing this expect to use it as part of a lock. Its main advantages, for me, lie in its ability to protect spells that you need to resolve and stick (cutting out untapped mana to prevent counters/removal/etc.), and as free removal against Landstill. Not excellent reasons, I know; I do, however, think that it pulls its weight. You're very right to say that with four colours, Wasteland works against you. With three colours, however, I feel that it's worth it.
If anyone else has been wondering about this, it works. I don't like how it changes the deck's dynamic, though. I find that it throws the deck off kilter a bit--that is, if you take out Mongrel (aggression and pitching), you need to adjust the rest of the deck for a stronger orientation toward control. Myself, I'm going to be keeping the Mongrels at three.No mongrels is interesting, though. I suppose you do have enough beaters that you could safely do this, though it would drastically change the way the deck is played. Instead of aggro-->control it would be control-->alpha strike, I guess.
Good suggestion, but it was mostly idle musing on my part. Smother works more than well enough. One option would be to drop a Smother for a Shriekmaw (which is easier to recur), but I haven't tested it. It's a pretty sexy idea, though.If you really have concerns about creatures that can't be handled by smother, then drop in a few vedalken shackles. I've been running one in my threshold build, maindeck, and it's great against the randomness you'll face, but forces you into a more control-role. That's fine, if that's where the deck is headed.
For the record, I've decided to stick to BUG. I've made a few adjustments to accomodate the Source tournament currently underway (mostly to the sideboard, maindecked Extirpates and added a Tropical Island), and nothing serious has come of it. I think that it may be worth adding a third Tropical Island to smooth our opening hands, but it's not really a huge tweak.
In the next while, I plan to test with a lone Shriekmaw to complement Smother, and with Gaddock Teeg hiding in the sideboard somewhere (I suspect he may actually be overkill, but we'll see).
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