[ATW] Landstill

[Cait_Sith]

I've been trying out Think Twice in place of Standstill.

A quick two problems with this:

1. Standstill always provides more CA for less mana (+2 for 2 vs +1 for 2+3).
2. Think Twice is only better if your opponent is not playing spells after Standstill comes down.

There are only a few decks that have been known to get away with this:

Rabid Wombat
Rifter
Quinn the Eskimo

for a few examples.

Almost every other deck is pretty much declaring how royally screwed it is. The fact that you are both sculpting your hands is not relevant; them popping your Standstill just makes your amazing hand even more amazing. At this point the amount of amazing in your hand should be defined by: The limit as X approaches infinity of X^X.

Anything less would be impossible. Unless you ran Think Twice. In that case you'd have just done +1 to hand earlier and been forced to discard to it.

[Berzerked]

So how is your match against Breakfast? So far my testing has gone about 66/33 in my favor, but requiring incredibly tight play throughout the whole game. And even then It can just go either way (I'm talking about having to deal with Goyfs + Combo w/backup by turn 3-4). Some of the stuff is just too slow, and what makes it worse is the random game where you draw pretty much nothing but colorless lands, and by randomly bad colorless lands, I mean Wasteland...Sure Waste + Crucible locks up some games, but they were probably games I could have won anyway. Crucible I love seeing because it guarantees land drops (which this deck desperately needs) while at the same time making sure there are Brainstorm shufflers, and Recurs beaters. Wasteland just seems like it's not really consistent enough and powerful enough to compensate for the random self-mana screw or mid game dead draw. And as far as I've heard, we lose to 43Lands no matter what.

Standstill is not negotiable. It has to be in the deck, and not just because it's in the name of the deck, just because it's good. It's power, as my testing has shown, is not necessarily within the first couple of turns (although it can be), but more around turn 4-6, after you've taken control of the board. It then very consistently chains into more Standstills/answers, and you just kind of "combo out" from there. And then on top of that, you get the turn 1 on the play - Stifle their fetch, turn 2 drop Still, and proceed to win.
It's strength lies in that if the opponent doesn't break it immediately, it become huge free card advantage. It let's you play much, much more aggressively (when you've got the resources to do so, ie. Factories), pretty much knowing you're opponent will have to break it some time and provide you with counters and other answers to their play. In other games it allows you to sit back and sculpt a better hand than your opponent, while simultaneously applying pressure.

All that being said, is our matchup against MUC as bad as I think it might be? Back to Basics...Vedalken Shackles...Powder Keg...lots of counters...
Any testing done?

[DuKeLiO]

I tested against MUC and if you plays carefully you will win the match. I play the 4C version with Cunning Wishes posted some pages ago. You have to play the waiting game ever, you can wait a lot of turns beacuse you have a better card drawing engine, and never tap out to attack with Mishra's until you have a total control of the game and you have outdrawed your opponent. With sideboard the Grips will be your edge against them beacuse it is the only card they play that worries you. Don't counter Shackles or Keg, you can simply Deed it away when you have the control over the game.

And who cares against a turn 1 Mongoose? It will be 1/1 for a lot of turns, play Standstill. Probably you will find a Mishra's Factory to block it but, if not, or if your opponent plays wastelands you can simply wait to break it at the end of his turn 8 or 9 and you will have gained all the tempo of the game and your lategame bombs will be more relevant that all his hand manipulation, his critters and his situacional countermagic.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually, Landstill match up against MUC tends to be the bad side. Every card MUC runs maindeck is relevant, some to very high degrees (Back to Basics, Powder Keg). Even Vedalken Shackles can hold off an attack.

Dealing with some of their wincons can be extremely difficult (Morphling must be swept while Rainbow Efreet simply has to be out mana'd or hit with a split second spell).

Note: Your draw engine is only better if you have A) a Standstill that resolves and B) they do not have Back to Basics already in play.

The biggest problem Landstill has with MUC comes from is that: Lower color ones don't have a large variety of means of dealing with Propaganda, Back to Basics, and Powder Keg.

Higher color ones have means to deal with everything MUC can throw, but a resolved Back to Basics can reduce them to 1-2 lands a turn. If you fetch all basics to avoid this, you will almost consistently end up in color screw.

The match up is winnable, but you need to focus on Back to Basics and Powder Keg above everything else, otherwise you'll find yourself in a very bad situation.

[konsultant]

Against Muc, either of the builds I have posted can consistently beat any mono blue control build I have faced. This is a prime example as to the power of the 4 Extirpate Sb stategy. Personally I board in the Akroma's Vengeance and the Extirpate's. Focus extirpate on stripping away the counterspells and you should be able to easily resolve Vengeance or Explosive's to remove any relevent cards that come into play. The main problem with playing against Muc is that if you lose game one there is a good chance that you will not be able to finish game 3 in time.

[DuKeLiO]

Actually, Landstill match up against MUC tends to be the bad side. Every card MUC runs maindeck is relevant, some to very high degrees (Back to Basics, Powder Keg). Even Vedalken Shackles can hold off an attack.

Dealing with some of their wincons can be extremely difficult (Morphling must be swept while Rainbow Efreet simply has to be out mana'd or hit with a split second spell).

Note: Your draw engine is only better if you have A) a Standstill that resolves and B) they do not have Back to Basics already in play.

The biggest problem Landstill has with MUC comes from is that: Lower color ones don't have a large variety of means of dealing with Propaganda, Back to Basics, and Powder Keg.

Higher color ones have means to deal with everything MUC can throw, but a resolved Back to Basics can reduce them to 1-2 lands a turn. If you fetch all basics to avoid this, you will almost consistently end up in color screw.

The match up is winnable, but you need to focus on Back to Basics and Powder Keg above everything else, otherwise you'll find yourself in a very bad situation.

Powder Keg isn't an issue for Landstill, only B2B and the win conditions are real threaths. With my build the plan is simple: not tap never and wait to fight these 2 cards. Cunning Wish is very important, beacuse I can play it EOT to go for the Krosan Grip. If I can survive until lategame Standstill and Pernicious Deed will give me the game. The problem is if MUC runs a lot of pitch counters to force the turn 3 B2B against probably 1 or 2 counters. If you can force it, sure, you will win the game, if it is a game 1 (in g2 there are Krosan Grip). If the Landstill player survives until late game Pernicious Deed will blow out Propagandas and Powder Kegs along with the B2B. I only have found troubles beating MUCs when opponents runs 4 B2B and Trickbind/Stifle for Pernicious.
The power of the split second sideboard cards is the edge to combat MUC. Extirpate provees me a lot of info to force my key spells and cut the MUC player for some counters or B2B.
I believe good Landstill players will beat good MUC players, but weaker Landstill players will be rushed for any MUC player beacuse any mistake will cost him the game.

[Nihil Credo]

With my build the plan is simple: not tap never and wait to fight these 2 cards.

I haven't seen your build, but I'd guess it still runs less counters and instant-speed draw than MUC, and has more dead maindeck cards (all the non-Deed removal). If that is true, is playing the control role really a viable strategy?

[DuKeLiO]

This is my build:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=495
I only play 4 Swords to plowshares like dead cards and he plays powders, propagandas, Shackles or whatever he runs, beacuse I can play the waiting game and waste all of the with a lone Pernicious Deed. I run less instant speed draws, but brainstorm are far better refilling the hand than Impulse, and Standstill can be played in late game without fear to tap out (or in the second turn on the play). Also, Quagnoth is amazing in this pairing.

Sure, MUC is not a easy matchup, but you will win more than lose if you play it well.

[Bahamuth]

This is my build:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=495
I only play 4 Swords to plowshares like dead cards and he plays powders, propagandas, Shackles or whatever he runs, beacuse I can play the waiting game and waste all of the with a lone Pernicious Deed. I run less instant speed draws, but brainstorm are far better refilling the hand than Impulse, and Standstill can be played in late game without fear to tap out (or in the second turn on the play). Also, Quagnoth is amazing in this pairing.

Sure, MUC is not a easy matchup, but you will win more than lose if you play it well.

Powder keg and Shackles both are far from dead vs. Landstill, since they stop you from winning for a long time. When I have 1 or 2 of these artifact online, the landstill player can't win. MUC has more cardadvantage than you (FoF, Ancestral Visions, AK) and not everyone doesn't play Brainstorm (I do, but I splash for white for 4 StP). This means we have the same number of dead cards.

I think the matchup is about 50/50. If I manage to drop a Back to Basics (which is quite likely, since I do play more counters than you do) it will take you ages to kill me, as you can't untap your manland once they attacked.

[DuKeLiO]

I have no interest on winning quickly, kegs and shackles are dead until I want to attack, that will be when I have the game under my control. I will wait until you were depleted, and then I deed away all the stuff and attack for the win. This is my standard plan against MUC, and I never lost a match against it (I have only played 4, I win 3 and draw 1).

[Kadaj]

I don't think I've ever lost a three game set to Landstill either in testing or in tournaments with MUC. While it is true that game 1 can be close, if the Landstill player takes the control role you are guaranteed to win. MUC runs more counters, more draw, and more non-dead answers than Landstill in this match, and misassignment of role=game loss.

If your plan is to never play anything or attack then how can you possibly deplete the MUC player? Unless you actively tap manlands and attack to lower my life total, I will never play anything. Simply put, I'll just sit there until you play something, win the counterwar over it if it matters or just let it resolve if it doesn't.

MUC does not automatically beat Landstill, it's true, but there's no way for a Landstill player to out-control a competant MUC player. 12+ counters versus 8, 7 true card drawing spells (in my version with Ancestral Vision and Fact or Fiction) versus 4 situations card drawing spells, and no dead removal versus at least 4 dead removal slots forces the Landstill player to go on the offensive, a role it is not adept at playing. And, just for the record, neither Impulse nor Brainstorm refill your hand at all. They are card filtering not card advantage.

Back To Basics is also more or less an instant win for a good MUC player, as they can resolve it and protect it with counters leaving the Landstill player with no way to deal with it sans Krosan Grip if you run it. The way Landstill wins this match is by taking advantage of the fact that it's win-conditions are uncounterable and getting as much pressure on as possible without putting themselves in a position where they can't defend themselves against B2B or Powder Keg. Relying on Deed is not going to get you anywhere, frankly, because of the sheer amount of countermagic in the average MUC build which makes it very unlikely for you to be able to win the fight over resolving it.

[Tacosnape]

So for anyone following 4C Landstill, I dusted it off today and took a 1st split with a slightly updated list featuring a 2/2 split between Spell Snare and Stifle with which I was immensely satisfied. My current list was as follows:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life From The Loam
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast (Best...Card...Ever...)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Quagnoth

In a short report, since I'm tired,

Round 1: David, Suicide Black (I win 2-0)
In a short summary, he opens with obscene amounts of discard both games (Six Hymns in the span of 2 games) and I win by topdecking or Brainstorming into Engineered Explosives to sweep a bunch of 2/1 Pro-White guys, then letting his own Sarcomancies eat his face while I play defense.

Round 2: Denton, Goblins (I win 2-0)
Game 1 I get stuck on two lands, but I Force a Vial while he gets stuck on a mana pocket. I get up to three lands in time to sweep away a Fanatic and a Sharpshooter, counter Siege-Gang and Ringleader, and clonk through for the win. Game 2 I get Double Plague down pretty quick only to have Denton drop double Shared Triumph and a Piledriver. I crack a Deed for 2 and cruise onwards.

Round 3: Crystal, Rifter (I win 2-0)
Game 1 I steamroll with an answer for absolutely everything. Game 2 I Snare and Extirpate Lightning Rift, then Blue Elemental Blast and Extirpate Blood Moon. EE beats Decree, I cruise.

Round 4: Ray, Vodka Pox (I win 2-0)
I know he's playing Pox and keep a 5-land opener. He Poxes twice, and we get to a stable position with me having a Deed on board but down to 2 land when I peel a Loam at the perfect time. He has a Vindicate and Crucible in hand to stabilize, but his only lands are Urborg/Factory/Wasteland, and he can't play the Vindicate. Deed eats Crucible, Factories eat Ray. Game 2 I have to mull to a weak six and get Duressed, but a turn later I Brainstorm into Loam and happily acknowledged a shot of incredible luck.

Semifinals: Jeremy, Belcher (I win 2-1)
What should be an easy match turns into a nightmare. My turn one hand handles -everything- he could throw but a turn one Belcher, which is exactly what he throws. Game 2 he has to mull to a point of no win conditions in his opening hand, and I barely escape being beaten to death by Cantors and Simian Spirit Guides before Mage and Factory win. Game 3 I have to mull to 5 and he mulls to 6. He gets a Belcher out on turn two with Bayou, Mox imprinting SSG on the board. I know his only accel piece in hand is Desperate Ritual thanks to Land Grant, and I'm holding Blue Elemental Blast and Engineered Explosives. I choose to Explosives the Mox away and he gets stuck hunting mana until the last turn (Assisted by Extirpate on Ritual and Mage on LED I think), by which time Force of Will stops Desperate Ritual.

Finals: Chase, Hard Rock (We split.)
Screw playing my teammate, I'm sleepy. Our store credit nets me a Tropical Island for an Extirpate and Chase a Thoughtseize.

So anyway, the 2-2 Stifle/Snare split was way better than I thought it would be. Spell Snare was incredible all night, and Stifle saved me against Wasteland all night and was awesome against Sarcomancy. Explosives were excellent, and I found 2 Diabolic Edicts was enough with EE helping, though outside of Goblins (And a rogue Sliver deck I didn't play against) this was admittedly a metagame low on aggro, per usual.

[konsultant]

slightly updated list featuring a 2/2 split between Spell Snare and Stifle with which I was immensely satisfied.

I personally run the 3 Stifle MD for the tempo advantage. I understand that you also can gain that from the Spellsnare's but I have never found a need to run the Spellsnare's in the MD. The card is an amazing tool for control in Legacy as the format is now but I have been very happy with the 3 I run in the SB. Are you playing them in the MD just to get more room for cards in the SB? I have always found that unless the card is a mid to late game bomb you should either be able to tutor for it or play atleast 3 of them to consistently draw them and have a consistent strategy against a deck.

[Berzerked]

I have always found that unless the card is a mid to late game bomb you should either be able to tutor for it or play atleast 3 of them to consistently draw them and have a consistent strategy against a deck.

I think this is why I'm having a problem with Stifle. The 2 I play, I either never draw, or draw when I am either far behind or far ahead (in both cases it doesn't ever make a difference). I can't see cutting anything for the 3rd, though.

[Tacosnape]

I think this is why I'm having a problem with Stifle. The 2 I play, I either never draw, or draw when I am either far behind or far ahead (in both cases it doesn't ever make a difference). I can't see cutting anything for the 3rd, though.

I think this is often a case of making your mind believe something that isn't true. You'll get a Stifle more often than you think with only 2. I had the Stifle all three games I needed it the most (Against Goblins' Wasteland, Belcher's ETW, and Rifter's DoJ), and only remember having it a couple times I didn't need it, where I pitched it to Force or discarded it to a Pox.

Snare in maindeck, likewise, is a card that's nice to have. Almost every deck in existence has something you can counter with this. I played both in my second game against Pox, stopping a Hymn and a Sinkhole. I find Snare too strong not to run given the vast array of things it can counter.

[konsultant]

I think this is often a case of making your mind believe something that isn't true. You'll get a Stifle more often than you think with only 2. I had the Stifle all three games I needed it the most (Against Goblins' Wasteland, Belcher's ETW, and Rifter's DoJ), and only remember having it a couple times I didn't need it, where I pitched it to Force or discarded it to a Pox.

Snare in maindeck, likewise, is a card that's nice to have. Almost every deck in existence has something you can counter with this. I played both in my second game against Pox, stopping a Hymn and a Sinkhole. I find Snare too strong not to run given the vast array of things it can counter.

I'm not saying both cards aren't extremely useful, I myself play 3 of each. My disagreement is with the 2/2 split that you are proposing in the MD. Understandably you could very well have had them at the exact time you needed them, I am more concerned with consistency. A 1 in 30 chance of having a card is not reliable enough in my opinion when it comes to cards that affect your opponents tempo. I agree that both cards will pretty much always be usefull. I don't think if you keep playing with your build as it is that you will have the same fortune of having the right card when you need it.

[Nihil Credo]

Assume two cards fit in the same spot in the mana curve and perform similar functions; Stifle and Spell Snare qualify for this, being both 1cc blue "answer" cards (unless, for example, Stifle fits into a deck subtheme of land-destruction... but this isn't the case for 4C, Wasteland-less Landstill).

Under such assumptions, if you are undecided between the two cards, an even split between the two is likely to be better than choosing one of them. Why? Since you can't choose between the two, your best estimation is that, in any situation, having Card A is better 50% of the time and Card B is better the other 50%. If you had a different estimation, you could pick one over the other.

You assign four slots in some split between A and B. A situation comes up when either card is relevant; now, if you have drawn zero or one of the slots, *any* sort of split still gives you a 50% chance of having the better card. But, if your split is 2/2, when you draw two or more of those slots, you have a chance of drawing both cards, so that you'll always have the better card for any situation; whereas, if you had gone with a 4/0 split, you'd still only have a 50% chance of having the better card.

[Tacosnape]

EAT MATH!

What he said.

But the general gist of that is seriously dead on. Multiple times I've had 1 Snare and 1 Stifle in my hand and played the more useful one at the time while pitching the other to Force.

Just as an example, against Rifter, if I don't have Snare I have trouble stopping Lightning Rift on occasion, but without Stifle I fear Decree of Justice. I managed to play both in the same game, whereas double Snares or double Stifles would have put me in a far worse situation.

[Slay]

Okay, I've slacked off for too long, and I might as well post my Landstill build, as it's pretty different from the other builds posted so far in this thread.

Slaystill:

// Lands
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
3 Island

// Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Justice
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Humility
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Moat
SB: 2 Akroma's Vengeance
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Meddling Mage

Card choices:

Academy Ruins: Such a broken card. Unless you're playing against Aggro or Combo, you ALWAYS want to see this card. It recurs all the cards Aggro-control never wants you to resolve, and singlehandedly wins Crucible wars and beats Landstill. I've gotten screwed drawing both before, but the raw power of the card makes it best to play two.

Crucible/Wasteland: Gives you inevitability, as honestly I've found that just sitting there, popping the other guy's lands with a hand full of counters is not only a gamewinning play, but comes up often enough that it's easily worth including. Crucible also ensures you hit the 4th land drop, which is tangentially important to the Goblins matchup but important nonetheless.

Explosives: Great card against Tarmogoyf, Vial, and EtW. Recurring EEs with Ruins singlehandedly wins the Threshold matchup, they can't do shit against it. It also handles Counterbalance, casting it for 3 or 4 depending on your mana situation, which is very, very important in that matchup.

Vedalken Shackles: It stalls the fuck out of Landstill and generic aggro/aggro control decks, which is what you need to get to the late game. Sometimes the low island count in the deck makes it difficult to get it truly online, but against everything but Tarmogoyf it's generally irrelevent.

Spell Snare: Awesome card. It beats Counterbalance, which is very important, it beats Tarmogoyf, Cavern Harpy, etc. I think it's better than Stifle in this deck, which is based less on finesse and more on beating their face in with bombs.

About the land count: I play 24 lands and 2 Eternal Dragons, and so far I've only been truly manascrewed twice. It is a relevant problem for this deck which I'm trying to correct, but generally the power level of the deck is good enough that I can get out of manascrew if the opponent isn't beating down on me hard.

Just some food for thought, it does poorly against Goblins and (some) combo, but wrecks the field of any archetype with control in its name,
-Slay

[Berzerked]

You assign four slots in some split between A and B. A situation comes up when either card is relevant; now, if you have drawn zero or one of the slots, *any* sort of split still gives you a 50% chance of having the better card. But, if your split is 2/2, when you draw two or more of those slots, you have a chance of drawing both cards, so that you'll always have the better card for any situation; whereas, if you had gone with a 4/0 split, you'd still only have a 50% chance of having the better card.

That's not the issue. The issue is I don't have 4 slots avaliable, I only have 2 (because I feel the other 58 slots are 90-100% justified). Right now they are being occupied by Stifle, and I've found it underwhelming.
My experience with playing Repeal in various other control decks is that it offers a cheap way to manipulate the field - cheap enough that I can go on the offensive turns earlier with a small back-up - while being versitile enough that I can delay them winning/progressing a turn (while cantripping into gas), and I can bounce random annoyances like Vial.
I'm going to test them and let you know how they work out.


@Slay:
We play similar lists and here's what I've found:
- I play 23 land and 2 Dragon, and I've never been screwed once. I also play less colorless lands than you do, because I've found more than 6 to be more of a problem than a boon, wheather in 3 or 4C Landstill.
- You are playing 2 Shackles and 1 land where I play Cunning Wish. I've tested Shackles in a tutor package, and even then found it clunky when I drew it, and hardly tutored for it (of course, I also had Humility and Deed to search instead). Nevertheless, I've been insanely impressed with Wish, to the point where I'm actively trying to find one in many situations. I'm sure you've tested it (as our lists look almost identical, we must have designed them from the same shell), so what's you'r reason for dropping it? Has Shackles really been better?
- I can see dropping a Counterspell and filling it and my Stifle slots with Spell Snare. I'll try that too.