The only issue I have with your list, Jander, is that I see literally no way to beat a competant Goblins player. Taking MUC in another direction by adding Cunning Wish and "splash" colors to make EE better is definitely a possibility, but I see no way for your list to beat Goblins at all. Without playing some form of actual midgame defense that isn't vulnerable to a simple Tin-Street Hooligan or Tinkerer I can more or less guarantee that winning game one is going to prove a damn near impossibility. You don't even really gain a whole lot in game 2, although BEB/Hydroblast is certainly a boon, and the Goblins player can gain upwards 8 cards depending on the SB plans.
Was it a metagame call to run this deck even with such a potentially horrid Goblins matchup, or has your testing indicated the matchup is significantly better than it is for traditional MUC builds of this vein?
My other question is how often did you find yourself lacking cards in hand as you moved through the mid-game? In some of my earlier builds I constantly found that even with 4 Fact Or Fiction maindeck I was still lacking cards in hand come turns 6-7, which led to me trying and more or less falling in love with Ancestral Vision. Did Cunning Wish help in that regard, or did it just not come up a lot?
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
As TeKo said, there are reasons in some decks you would pick Hydroblast over BEB, but there are no reasons you'd purposefully pick BEB over Hydroblast, at least as far as I know.
Who knows, maybe you find some opponent out there running some of the janky Black "Skulking" guys; Hydroblast it.
EDIT:
Well, there's a good reason :P
You can beat Goblins, but your right that it is a highly unfavorable matchup. I have 8 ways on the play to deal with turn 1 Lackey before it swings, but other than that, it's a struggle.
I think you would be surprised at how much stronger Explosives is in this matchup compared to Powder Keg. It doesn't swing the favor of the matchup, but it does make the percentage a bit better.
It wasn't really a metagaming call when I chose this deck. I honestly tested most matchups, and when I decided on this deck, took Goblins as a statistical loss. Everything else is some what favorable to even, and though I expected a Goblin deck or two at the tournament, I didn't come to face one.
Cunning Wish does function as finding the 4th Fact or Fiction easier if needed, but it's main function is finding answers. I honestly didn't have any issues with my hand size. It always seemed right and I didn't show any signs of mana problems due to mana screw or land clumps. The 4 Brainstorms and 3 Fact / 3 Wish works great for me.
As far as Ancestral Vision, I strongly would disagree with this card in a deck like this. Most draw is either cast in response to something (to filter and/or find an answer) or at the end of an opponents turn to ensure your threat will resolve. The fact that Ancestral Vision has a hefty suspend cost is very unappealing in a deck that is very tight on the resources it uses and the timing that they are used.
The better choice to beat Goblins is imo Chill over Blasts. The Goblin matchup is SO ridicoulously negative that a few Blue Blasts won't do anything. So the better choice is to gamble. You just have to hope to be able to deal with their 1-drop Via Force, Shoal or in case of Vial with Repeal or E.Ex and then lock them out of the game with 1,2 Chill plus Propaganda.
Chill also happens to be broken against Stupid Red burn and it is a very solid choice against CRET Belcher (shuts down all red rituals, Burning Wish and makes casting Empty the Warrens for high storm nearfly impossible).
While I do readily admit Explosives is a stronger card then Powder Keg against Goblins, and more or less in general, I would honestly be stunned if you could beat a solid Goblins player with your list. You literally have no staying power in the midgame, and stopping Lackey is, while important, not really the key to this matchup. Goblins has a better early, mid, and possibly even lategame then your version of MUC, and thus without extreme luck I can't see that matchup being anything but an auto-loss.
In my testing, which has been pretty extensive so far, Ancestral Vision's suspend cost has never once been an issue. The fact that it doesn't cost you any resources to resolve on the turn you get the effect is huge, and it also helps make up for the point that you mentioned about wanting ensure your draw spells resolve. The way my version of MUC plays in Legacy it usually ends up committing mana and cards in hand to establish dominance in the mid to late game, the type of deck that Ancestral Vision is perfect for. Even suspending it on turn 3 or 4 and resolving it on turn 7 or 8 is often good enough because you can delay while you wait for the effect.
I would probably not run Ancestral Vision in a list of your vein, Jander, but I would also not run your list in the first place; Although I do very much like EE in this deck, as it is a superior card to Powder Keg in most respects, especially in Legacy. I found Cunning Wish to be awful whenever I experimented with it for exactly the reasons you described Ancestral Visions as being supposedly unfavorable for this deck. Cunning Wish costs an investment of 3 mana to find an answer that will cost at least 1 more mana, which often turns off your ability to protect your answer from opposing disruption because it sucks up so much mana.
On top of that it also shreds your SB, robbing you of slots that could quite easily prove crucial down the line against certain matchups.
I never claimed to be able to beat Goblins. In fact, I said it was a statistical loss. I have no argument here, you're just re-enforcing what I stated.
On the other hand, what results / suggestions would you advise as changing in the main deck to ensure a positive matchup against Goblins? Obviously the sideboard could be tailored around dealing with a heavy Goblins infested environment, if one were to expect that in their environment.
Ancestral Vision is draw. Comparing it to Cunning Wish seems out of place as the two cards have very different functions. I can see how Ancestral Vision is cast and set off to the side for 3 turns and when it resolves it wouldn't effect the current game state (hence free draw). But, against the very matchup you're concerned about (Goblins), Vision in theory is not a good choice due to the wait on cards when you are constantly under pressure.
Cunning Wish is cast when you need an answer. It's mana investment is usually swinging the game in your favor or it is used in moments of desperation. In both situations it usually will provide a solution. I'm not advocating Wish as a definitive solution or definite inclusion in MUC. In fact I was highly against its inclusion in this type of deck due to most of the points you make above. The color splashes I used in my build made Wish much more powerful as the solutions it found became more extreme and better answers. In a Mono-U deck the available cards just aren't there and Wish just doesn't hold it's weight.
The two changes I ended up making in my current list that pushed the Goblin matchup towards respectability (although still not anywhere near a truly favorable matchup) were adding Propaganda and Ancestral Vision to the maindeck. The two cards combined with what was already available to give the deck a powerful midgame that was strong enough to hold off Goblins while attempting to push both decks into the lategame, where Goblins is more managable (though still not easy by any means).
For your list specifically, I'd find room for Propaganda in there somewhere. Probably for a land, at least one counterspell, and maybe a Cunning Wish or a Back to Basics. I would also look to include both Chrome Mox and Thirst For Knowledge somehow (assuming you're dead set against Ancestral Vision), although that would probably be treading on the toes of what your version is looking to do with Cunning Wish.
The primary reason I believe that Ancestral Vision is actually strong against Goblins is because you generally lose to Goblins in the midgame as opposed to the early game. Casting Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 and reaping the rewards on turn 5 or 6 can aid you considerably in holding off the rush that Goblins is very adept at throwing at your face.
I'll concede that in your version, with access to things like StP and Extirpate out of the board, Cunning Wish gains an added dimension that simply isn't there in a purely Mono-Blue version of this deck. Gaining EE is another advantage that's definitely worth looking into, at the very least.
After reading the last pages this is the list i came up with.
14 Island
1 swamp
1 plain
3 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
2 disrupting shoal
3 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Brainstorm
3 cunning wish
2 ancestral vision
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 engineered explosives
3 Back to Basics
2 Morphling
SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pongify
3 Tormods crypt
I wanted to get the most out of the splash using the explosives and the wishes.
The side is very combo oriented because my meta have lots of combo decks like ichorid en ETW combo.
Propaganda I would run, but preferrably in the Sideboard. I don't find it necessary in my environment to justify it in the maindeck. I do agree it's a great card and a strong tool against aggro decks in general.
I haven't felt the need for the extra draw, hence my skepticism on adding or modifying my version with draw spells.
Whenever I've played control against Goblins, I've always had the issue of stopping them in the first few turns. That always means my mana is tied up the first couple of turns, so I wouldn't find resources to suspend AV. Usually turn 1 is reserved for Force Spike/Brainstorm (only if nothing is cast) and turn 2 is saved for Counterspell. I use FoF for that mid-game hand refill.
I think it's worth looking into in any version of MUC and only for EE. Cunning Wish is a call on a whole different level and not really the reason behind the color splash. By just replacing two Islands with 1 Plains and 1 Swamp you can easily just replace Powder Keg with Engineered Explosives and maintain the same stability.
I noticed you suggested Chrome Mox above, this would make sense and invalidate my agrument against AV if you are running this in your version. Can you link a current list of your deck?
TaobotMUC
// Lands
10 [ON] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [8E] Swamp
1 [PT] Plains
// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
// Spells
4 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TE] Chill
- Think Twice and AK are a fantastic draw engine. They search for land drops in the early game and produce tons of card advantage later. Think Twice is especially strong in the control mirror because it is virtually uncounterable.
- I play only one Intuition, even though it has synergy with AK and TT and can search for E.Ex and B2B it is often too slow or you have drawn your pieces already. However, one feels right.
- With Brainstorm, AK and TT as early Cyclers you need only 20 lands
- Most of the SB is made to fight against Goblins (Chill plus Propaganda) and Ichorid (Proaganda plus Crypt); Stifles are there to fight Combo and for the Control Mirror where your Explosives are dead; the 4th B2B comes in whenever B2B is broken
My current list is as follows:
X22 Islands
X3 Chrome Mox
X2 Back To Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Propaganda
X3 Ancestral Vision
X3 Powder Keg
X3 Impulse
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Counterspell
X4 Force Of Will
X4 Rune Snag
X2 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
The SB is highly variable, and although I posted one earlier in the thread I have no current set SB.
Chrome Mox gives this deck a lot of extra speed and allows for AV to be cast as early as turn 2 with counter backup, as well as setting up turn 1 Rune Snags, Counterspells, whathaveyou, and playing bombs like Fact or Fiction and Vedalken Shackles a turn earlier can make all of the difference. Mox is also, admittedly, one of the reasons I consider additional card draw to be necessary in my build at least.
Tao, I actually really like your list, and I fully agree that Think Twice and Accumulated Knowledge have the potential to be a very consistent draw engine. However, as I consider Fact or Fiction the lynchpin of this archtype, I'm curious as to why you decided to exclude it. I presume it's because you felt it's either too slow, or simply not as efficient as TT+AK, but I'd like to hear your reasoning anyway.
Again, my only real complaint about your list is that it seems highly vulnerable to Goblins. Even with tools like Repeal and additional pitch magic the matchup still seems pretty unfavorable, at least game 1. Game 2 I can certainly see things improving dramatically, however.
- I excluded FoF because it does not fit into my attempt of a lower mana curve. I think TT is more flexible. It cycles turn 2 for solutions or Mana, you don't have to fight to resolve it against other blue decks and it is a tower in the combat against black Discard.
It is also nice to be able to do things EoT and thus punish your opponent for not playing spells into your waiting Counterspell / Spell Snare .
- I am not trying to tell anything wrong. In Game 1 Goblins just slaughter my list, but that's not unusual unless you tune your mainboard against them. If you expect them in your Meta in a high number, change the deck. if you expect them in a fair number, you could add for example 3 Propaganda to the maindeck, instead of (for example) 1 Snare, the Intuition and one TT.
Guile: It is awesome, but not for the reasons you think.
It is the first and third abilities that carry this beastie through. It can only be killed by Swords to Plowshares and defends itself against all other removal spells without costing mana. It cannot be needled. It is VERY evasive (gang blocking a 6/6 that will just come back is stupid, but people will do it because they must).
The second ability, the spell stealing, is not nearly as amazing. Guile comes down late, after you have established control, so they rarely have anything worth stealing and won't play their good cards into the ability. It can be used to hijack cantrips, and draw spells, but they almost never play anything good into it, and more rarely do they do it twice.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Think Twice and AK are a fantastic draw engine. They search for land drops in the early game and produce tons of card advantage later. Think Twice is especially strong in the control mirror because it is virtually uncounterable.If you run only 4-7 artifacts only(Chrome Mox, Shackles, EE or Keg), but now use AK and TT, wouldn't TfK be a choice to try then again?I fully agree that Think Twice and Accumulated Knowledge have the potential to be a very consistent draw engine.
Even if you have no artifact, discarding a TT and a useless land still creates card advantage.
If it does not create CA, it at least creates a ton of CQ.
I am of the belief that card quality is not at all what this deck is looking for. This deck wants raw power, and the ability to just completely outdraw and outcontrol its opponent. Thirst For Knowledge is great at helping that out in certain builds, but in builds that cannot reliably get the best effect out of it should not be running it over Fact or Fiction, or Think Twice, or whatever.
What do you think about Meditate as Mid/Late Game EOT Draw Spell?
When you have about 8 Lands and your Enchantments in play you can skip one Turn, if you have Mana open to counter or FoW on your Hand.
Hmm, Meditate sounds like "Win more". When I have counterbackup and my opponent is not attacking me, then I don't need the drawspell.
For TfK, I agree with Kadaj. You can only play a certain number of draw spells, and the other options are better. In my list are 9 draw spells, that is enough. If I would add more cards to my list, card 61 would be Shoal#3, card 62 Shackles#3 and card 63 Intuition#2
Meditate is bad. If you need the cards, you cannot spare the turn. If you don't need the turn, then the cards are not a desperate resource and a much more powerful spell, like Fact or Fiction, should be used.
The situations where Meditate is the best choice are rare enough that it is not worth including in your list.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
What do you think about my list?
I like the Chalice MD, because I play no 1cc spells, so I can play it for 0 or 1.
And Chalice @ 1 is good against most decks (Goblin, Thresh ...)
-Lands (20)
20 Island (imo 20 Islands + 3 Mox are enough)
-Creatures (3)
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
-Spells (37)
-Counter (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Rune Snag
-Draw (8)
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
-Board Control (14)
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
3 Powder Keg
3 Chalice of The Void
2 Vedalken Shackles
-Mana (3)
3 Chrome Mox
-Sideboard (15)
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Stifle (Combo)
1 Chalice of the Void (Combo)
3 Hydroblast (Goblin or other red shit)
4 Chill (Goblin or other red shit)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid or other GY decks)
Getting back to the "to Brainstorm or not to Brainstorm" debate, why aren't people mentioning that Brainstorm allows you to hide cards? Although Duress, Thoughtseize, and other player-selected discard effects aren't dominating the format, I always thought it was nice to be able to hide/save a key card that I know my opponent would've Durressed/Thoughtseized. Personally, I run 4x Brainstorm because I haven't come across a card that allows me to dig 3 deep and hide 2 key cards at the same time.
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